The Instigator
Redsoxphan
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Everything
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Was the Treaty of Versailles Fair and Reasonable?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/28/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 680 times Debate No: 88897
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (0)

 

Redsoxphan

Pro

Round 1 : Acceptance
Rules
1. Both Pro and Con MUST provide evidence for their claims. No wikipedia or any websites that are bias.
2. 2 Forfeits= Automatic Loss
3. Opponent must have decent sized argumenets , and rebute Pros points.
4. Arguments should not be full of grammar or spelling issues.

Thesis: The Treaty of Versailles(1919) was fair and reasonable.
Everything

Con

I accept this bitch!
Debate Round No. 1
Redsoxphan

Pro

Was that really necessary? I will have to add another rule : no swearing in the debate, as that is nonprofessional.
To start the Treaty of Versailles of 1919 , imposed by the Supreme Court in 1919 was in fair to Germany. The Germans were involved in the war, and lost fair and square. Now , Woodrow Wilson practiced moral diplomacy , and to him it was a fair treaty. Now to look back at other situations in history. Throughout history it has been common practice for the victor to impose sanctions on the losers. Have you ever heard the saying "To the victor go the spoils". Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Napoleon, the Vatican, Ferdinand of Spain, and many others have long practiced this belief. The treaty did not erase the German nation and split it up among the victors. It did not diminish its national identity, nor did it enslave the people of Germany. It was fair because Germany started the war with the Schlieffen Plan. The war caused millions of people to die so because of that they should not have had a say in what the Treaty of Versailles said. The loss of life on both sides was an unpayable debt and the terms of the treaty were fair. Not only was there a great loss of life, but the damage to the European infrastructure was also impacted. The destruction in Europe was extensive and Germany was to was very lenient and he was trying to punish Germany, but not as harshly as the others. Wilson was trying to bring peace in a friendly way. Wilson wasn't seeking revenge.The provision that was fair was the decrease to Germany’s army. If Germany’s army was decreased then they were most likely not going to start any more wars because they simply would not have enough man power to help them succeed. All of the provision had there place and had a purpose to serve.Germany was given harsh requirements but sometimes you need to set those harsh requirements to prove a point. One of the world leaders Georges Clemenceau of France had one very simple belief – Germany should be brought to its knees so that she could never start a war again, and this belief was not initiated in the Treaty of Versailles , so Germany should have been grateful for that , considering the French lost 1.4 million soldiers in the war.
Sources

Sources:
America Past and Present APUSH Book
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...;
Everything

Con

Versailles wasn't fair due to Germany being forced to take blame for something that a lot of nations originally blamed the Serbian government for, the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife. This brought about the eventual Austro-Hungarian war with Serbia. This is not Germany's fault. The decision of Russia to protect their ally Serbia is also not Germany's fault.

Austro-Hungarian feelings for the acts of terrorism prompted an invasion of Serbia, Russia came to Serbia's defense. Germany supported their ally. Then came about the following entries. This can't be blamed on Germany. Each nation is to be blamed for their own actions.

German war plans was designed due to the decision making of other nations. Each side had their own plans made up and they carried out those plans. This isn't prove that Germany should be blamed for a war that Austro-Hungary declared due to a terrorist attack.

The allies in ww1 was designed to bring Germany to its knees. The harsh sanctions and reparation demands once they won severely harmed German economy and their currency was useless. This lead to bullying by Germany's neighbors after stripping their right to adequately defend themselves. Their territory was carved up to weaken the German nation. All of this occurred cause of jealous and concerned powers wanted to keep the German nation down to prevent them from competing with their own imperial ambitions.

By definition harsh means severe or cruel and cruel means unfair. So the treaty was unfair.

http://www.merriam-webster.com...
http://www.merriam-webster.com...
http://www.instantanswer.org...
http://www.history.com...
http://www.historyonthenet.com...
https://www.ushmm.org...
http://www.theholocaustexplained.org...
Debate Round No. 2
Redsoxphan

Pro

Versailles wasn't fair due to Germany being forced to take blame for something that a lot of nations originally blamed the Serbian government for, the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife. This brought about the eventual Austro-Hungarian war with Serbia. This is not Germany's fault. The decision of Russia to protect their ally Serbia is also not Germany's fault.
Rebutttal:
The largest share of responsibility lies with the German government. Germany's rulers made possible a Balkan war by urging Austria-Hungary to invade Serbia, well understanding that such a conflict might escalate. Without German backing it is unlikely that Austria-Hungary would have acted so drastically.(Stevenson)

Austro-Hungarian feelings for the acts of terrorism prompted an invasion of Serbia, Russia came to Serbia's defense. Germany supported their ally. Then came about the following entries. This can't be blamed on Germany. Each nation is to be blamed for their own actions.
Rebuttal:

The Triple Entente was less structured than the Triple Alliance. “Entente” means understanding and the members of the Entente (Britain, France and Russia) did not have to promise to help the other two if they got attacked by other countries but the understanding was that each member would support the others – but it was not fixed. So, you are teeling me that Germany was required to help Austria- Hungary,I do not think so.




The allies in ww1 was designed to bring Germany to its knees. The harsh sanctions and reparation demands once they won severely harmed German economy and their currency was useless. This lead to bullying by Germany's neighbors after stripping their right to adequately defend themselves. Their territory was carved up to weaken the German nation. All of this occurred cause of jealous and concerned powers wanted to keep the German nation down to prevent them from competing with their own imperial ambitions.
Rebuttal:
First of all, the grammar in this statement is unsatisfactory. The Germans inflicted mass casualties on sdeveral countries , such as
Russia
During WWI: Russia is outclassed by the German and Austrian armies, losing significant ground. Suffering from a high loss of life and severe economic problems leads to revolution, enabling the communists to gain power. The communists withdraw Russia from the war, ceding vast territories to Germany/Austria. The Russian Civil War ensues, as other factions attempt to assume power. Ukraine and Belarus come under German control, but are given autonomy.
After WWI: As communists secure their hold on power within Russia, they attempt to reassert authority over pre-war territories lost to the Central Powers. Soviet Russia is unable to prevent the independence of several former dependent states, such as Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland. It does manage to reassert control over Belarus and Ukraine.
Russia Casualties:
Total Deaths: 3,311,000 (Rank = 2 / 16)
Total Deaths % of pop.: 2.1% (Rank = 10 / 16)
Troops: 12,000,000 (Rank = 1 / 16)
Troops % of pop.: 7.6% (Rank = 11 / 16)
Military Deaths: 1,811,000 (Rank = 2 / 16)
Military Deaths % of Troops: 15.1% (Rank = 7 / 16)
Civilian Deaths: 1,500,000 (Rank = 2 / 16)
Civilian Deaths % of pop.: 0.9% (Rank = 8 / 16)
Russian Civil War:
Total Deaths: Estimated 15,000,000
Military Deaths: More than 1,500,000
Civilian Deaths: More than 13,000,000

France
Before WWI: Still experiencing political upheaval, but also re-establishing itself as a power after a century where it suffered major defeats (Napoleonic Wars, Franco-Prussian War). Expanded empire by becoming a leading colonizer of Africa. Pre-occupied with the German threat and competition. Interested in regaining territory lost during Franco-Prussian War. Strikes alliances with Russia and UK to hem in Germany.
During WWI: Immediately lost ground to the invading Germans, but halted their progress early in the war, keeping the front lines just inside their eastern borders. Fought successful campaigns against the Germans in Africa and the Ottoman Empire in the Middle East.
After WWI: Although a victor (regaining territory along France/German border lost during Franco-Prussian War), utterly devastated by the trench warfare fought against the Germans on French lands. Suffered a high loss of life, destroyed industrial region and economic devastation. France did gain additional territories though. In addition to lands along the Rhine (from Germany), also gained part of Germany’s African territories, and multiple territories in former Ottoman Empire (Middle East).
France Casualties:
Total Deaths: 1,697,800 (Rank = 4 / 16)
Total Deaths % of pop.: 4.3% (Rank = 4 / 16)
Troops: 8,410,000 (Rank = 3 / 16)
Troops % of pop.: 21.2% (Rank = 2 / 16)
Military Deaths: 1,397,800 (Rank = 3 / 16)
Military Dealths % of Troops: 16.6% (Rank = 5 / 16)
Civilian Deaths: 300,000 (Rank = 8 / 16)
Civilian Deaths % of pop.: 0.8% (Rank = 11 / 16)


If Germany had avoided helping Austria Hungary, all of these deaths , plus countless more could have been avoided. Plus the Germans even enticed other countries into the war,such as the United States, by blowing up their merchant ships. The Germans in the end, deserved their punishment. Also, the Allies formed the league of Nations , and promised to give up their colonies , so that statement is false.
By definition harsh means severe or cruel and cruel means unfair. So the treaty was unfair.
Rebuttal: Yes, that is true , but one must look at the Treaty of Versailles in terms of historical context. This means that because of the mass casualities inflicted on the countries stated above in the last rebuttal, the treaty was harsh but needed to prove a point , therefore validating the Treaty as fair.
Sources
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...

http://www.worldology.com...
APUSH Past and Present Book
Everything

Con

No, Germany did not urge Austro-Hungary to do anything, Germany promised support for an ally that was just attacked. That is common between allies throughout history. Being that it was a military alliance, you'd think that supporting an ally that was just attacked would be something one would assume is in the realm of responsibilities. Austro-Hungary was a victim of terrorism, governments around the world did blame Serbia for that act of terrorism. At this point Serbian nationalist and Russian steadfast support of Serbia is to blame for the following chain of events triggering a global war, not Germany who was being a good ally and friend to its oldest ally and friend that was just attacked.

I've spotted equal number of mistakes from you as well... Anywho, Russia is to blame for their own casualties, they mobilized in preparations for war with Austro-Hungary AND mobilized against Germany for doing something any great power would do after being a victim of terrorism. As Russia was getting mobilized they were calling on France to do the same thing. This unequivocally proves that Germany isn't to be blamed for a global war that came about due to something Serbian terrorist backed by Serbia and by Russia did. Germany had a military alliance with Austro-Hungary, Russia had no obligation whatsoever to support Serbia. Most definitely nothing like a complete mobilization against Austro-Hungary and Germany to help Serbia and risking what came to be.

France made it clear to Russia that they had their complete support even if that meant war with Germany and Austro-Hungary. This is the same thing Germany did with Austro-Hungary. The only difference is one nation was attacked and had justification to act and others didn't. It was that assurance that put Russia in 100% war mode to protect Serbia when they just attacked another nation. To France, preserving domination over others was more important than avoiding war.

In the last round I mentioned the economic tolls on Germany from Versailles but not fully. If anyone read the article, it explained that the incredibly harsh demands for money put the German economy into hyperinflation and when Germany had no more money to give up France and Belgium invaded Germany and stole from Germany hurting them even more.

Cause France supported Russia, no matter the consequences, so that they can support Serbia, no matter the consequences, after Serbia attacked Austro-Hungary... They are to be blamed for all the death and destruction to themselves + over 1.7 million Germans killed and 4.2 million wounded and 1.2 million Austrians killed and over 3.6 million wounded not going to count the lesser powers. The point is made, France and Russia are equally or even more to blame for the war blowing up as it did. Without France backing Russia and Russia backing Serbia there would not have been any war on the scale that was fought. German support would have been minimal and Austro-Hungary whom early on was supported globally would have fought a very small war in the Balkans instead of a global war.

Basically, this is the Treaty of Versailles. Yea we backed Serbia whom attacked your ally but so what? Now, take all of the blame for our actions that turned a small war in the Balkans to a global war, give us everything outside of Europe, give us what we want in Europe, oh, and give us all of your money... And you think that was fair and reasonable?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk...

http://www.johndclare.net...

http://www.pbs.org...
Debate Round No. 3
Redsoxphan

Pro

No, Germany did not urge Austria-Hungary to do anything, Germany promised support for an ally that was just attacked. That is common between allies throughout history. Being that it was a military alliance, you'd think that supporting an ally that was just attacked would be something one would assume is in the realm of responsibilities. Austria-Hungary was a victim of terrorism, governments around the world did blame Serbia for that act of terrorism. At this point Serbian nationalist and Russian steadfast support of Serbia is to blame for the following chain of events triggering a global war, not Germany who was being a good ally and friend to its oldest ally and friend that was just attacked.
Rebuttal:

No, I did not say that, Germany did not urge Austria Hungary to do anything and that is true , but I stated the Germany could have not participated in the war in the first place, and chose to help out Austria Hungary instead. Choosing to go down that path of helping Austria- Hungary, Germany did in a way, advertise that it was itching for the opportunity of war, and enticed countries such as the United States to get involved though blowing up their merchant ships. Sometimes even the closest of Allies in situations like these have to make a decision that deviates from its ally.

I've spotted equal number of mistakes from you as well... Anywho, Russia is to blame for their own casualties, they mobilized in preparations for war with Austria-Hungary AND mobilized against Germany for doing something any great power would do after being a victim of terrorism. As Russia was getting mobilized they were calling on France to do the same thing. This unequivocally proves that Germany isn't to be blamed for a global war that came about due to something Serbian terrorist backed by Serbia and by Russia did. Germany had a military alliance with Austria-Hungary, Russia had no obligation whatsoever to support Serbia. Most definitely nothing like a complete mobilization against Austria-Hungary and Germany to help Serbia and risking what came to be.

Rebuttal:

Sorry for calling you out like that , it was unnecessary. Your Russian statements are mostly true, and I concede on that part , but you are saying Germany was a victim of terrorism? That is false ,it was Austria-Hungary , Germany’s colony ,that was the victim of terrorism. Germany still tried to entice other countries into the war with measures such as the Zimmerman telegram(United States), so I think Germany was responsible for expanding the fronts of WWI to other countries as well as Europe.

France made it clear to Russia that they had their complete support even if that meant war with Germany and Austria-Hungary. This is the same thing Germany did with Austria-Hungary. The only difference is one nation was attacked and had justification to act and others didn't. It was that assurance that put Russia in 100% war mode to protect Serbia when they just attacked another nation. To France, preserving domination over others was more important than avoiding war.
Rebuttal:
Fine, I concede that point. But the United States was attacked by Germany , eventually to the point where German U- Boats attacked American Merchant Ships and came up onto American soil. Even Germany had a variety of spy measures planted inside the United States , and other countries even before the war started and the assassination occurred ,so Germany had war measures in place. The French general
counterpart, Joseph Joffre, foresaw a longer conflict, they did not modify their war strategy to prepare for that eventuality” , so the purpose of the war to them, was just getting it over with , “ to see the light at the end of the tunnel.”, as avoiding war was inevitable.

In the last round I mentioned the economic tolls on Germany from Versailles but not fully. If anyone read the article, it explained that the incredibly harsh demands for money put the German economy into hyperinflation and when Germany had no more money to give up France and Belgium invaded Germany and stole from Germany hurting them even more.
Rebuttal:
One historian stated “Germany tried to push back the payments, and "Faced with hyperinflation and soaring unemployment, people sought refuge in a movement that promoted national pride, and signed up to Hitler's Nazi party - which used the reparations as a propaganda tool.",so Germany truly turned these payments into a rallying cry,making the treaty seem like a good thing. "A year later, the 1932 Lausanne conference tried to write off almost all of Germany's war debt,". The Bill failed , but at least the United States tried to help Germany. Germany split, and "A new agreement in 1953 - the London Treaty - agreed to suspend many payments until Germany was unified.". So Germany was not responsible for the debts for that long. Germany before that only paid a little of its debts, and did not start not paying again until 1990, so it did not affect the economy of the Germans that much. Therefore the Germans still had money circulating in their economy. Yes they were invaded by the countries you stated above, but the countries you stated above only took approximately 1/2 of Germany's empire.

Cause France supported Russia, no matter the consequences, so that they can support Serbia, no matter the consequences, after Serbia attacked Austria-Hungary... They are to be blamed for all the death and destruction to themselves + over 1.7 million Germans killed and 4.2 million wounded and 1.2 million Austrians killed and over 3.6 million wounded not going to count the lesser powers. The point is made, France and Russia are equally or even more to blame for the war blowing up as it did. Without France backing Russia and Russia backing Serbia there would not have been any war on the scale that was fought. German support would have been minimal and Austria-Hungary whom early on was supported globally would have fought a very small war in the Balkans instead of a global war.
Rebuttal:

Fine , they should not have been fully blamed for all of the losses of the war, but by enticing other countries such as the United States into the war, and further attacking other European countries , they opened up the war to a global scale


Basically, this is the Treaty of Versailles. Yea we backed Serbia whom attacked your ally but so what? Now, take all of the blame for our actions that turned a small war in the Balkans to a global war, give us everything outside of Europe, give us what we want in Europe, oh, and give us all of your money... And you think that was fair and reasonable?
Rebuttal:
So you are a German citizen? Look above at my previous rebuttals, and see that Germany did in nations such as the United States involved in the war by using military strength. Look at my war reparations rebuttal, and see that the Germans did not give up much of their money, so that statement is false. For the economic damages Germany caused to many countries, it was fair and rational(reasonable) to help Europe rebuild.

If you want to read this source fully :

http://www.npr.org...

Sources

https://www.boundless.com...

APUSH Past and Present History Book

https://www.ushmm.org...

http://www.bbc.com...

http://www.history.com...

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...
http://www.npr.org...;

Everything

Con

There would have been no world war, no invasion of Russia or France, no invasion of Belgium, no war with the United States, no global war of any kind had Russia not mobilized the way it did with the full backing of France to protect Serbia. As you conceded, each party had their own interest and war being more preferable then peace for Russia and France concludes that Germany is not to be blamed for war in the scale that was fought. Germany was supporting Austro-Hunagry in their small war in the Balkans. Russia mobilized its military against both Austro-Hungary and Germany without provocation from neither of those countries. Germany demanded that to stop and Russia ignored it.

You also misunderstood what I was saying. I didn't say Germany was a victim of terrorism, I was saying Russia mobilized against both of them after Austro-Hungary was. Once Germany restarted their unrestricted warfare at sea they knew that the United States would declare war and they tried to get Mexico to attack the United States in an effort to keep the United States busy in North America. Of course that wouldn't have happened had France and Russia didn't take the route that they took knowing that it would most definitely lead to massive war.

Almost every major power had such activities this is just normal behavior among nations, certainly against nations that are not friendly with ones own.

Yea, Hitler took advantage of the unfair treaty to become a dictator and which engulfed the world into an even more deadly and destructive war. No good thing at all, had the treaty been fair World War 2 wouldn't have happened. Germany had 0 colonies outside of Europe = no empire at the end of World War 1 and they took parts of Germany inside Europe as well, even mostly German cities was given to other powers in Europe.

Again, all of these things happened cause France and Russia backed Serbian government that was supporting terrorism. This would have been a small war in Europe but Russia wanted to protect Serbia when they had 0 obligation to and France thought it a good time to let a small war become a massive one.

France's actions led to the vast number of French death and destruction to their industries. Russia's actions led to the vast number of Russian deaths, destruction to what industry they had, and the empire that they had. Germany should not have been forced to pay to help rebuild nations that wanted war even more than Germany. Germany was only supporting an ally that was just attacked by Serbia. Germany was going to give minimal support to Austro-Hunagry and wasn't mobilizing their military at all until Russia and France started to.

Germany was attacking the US cause they were sending lots of resources that was being used against Germany and her allies. To answer your question, I'm an American.I just know that the treaty was unfair when the true instigators of the war, Serbia, Russia, and France are to blame for the war that was fought to such a degree when it would have been a small one between Austro-Hungary with German support if needed and Serbia. That their death and destruction is their fault and not Germany's and they should pay for their own actions and not make Germany chip in paying for their damages + their own repairs. ect ect..

The links I previously provided explain thoroughly that it was unfair to force Germany to accept full blame for a war that came to be from the actions of Serbia backed by Russia who was backed by France. Since they preferred war over peace they are equally to blame for the war and any action that Germany felt desperate enough to take. Due to their actions it also makes it unfair to demand such reparations and the stripping of territory. It was all designed to weaken Germany severely and keep them weak as long as possible. The treaty was unfair to these truths.
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Everything 1 year ago
Everything
Sure you're not.
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
@Everything

I'm not negating people's opinions. A vote is not solely posting one's opinion, and I've even posted the entire text of the vote here in the comments. If a person wants to post their opinion, they may do so in a null vote or here in the comments. If they want to award points, they have to meet the standards.

@Redsoxphan

I cannot reasonably vote on every single debate that I remove votes on, particularly not with my current schedule. Advertise it in the voting thread. Contact donald.keller, TUF or Midnight1131 to have it added to the Voter's Union list.
Posted by Redsoxphan 1 year ago
Redsoxphan
So Whiteflame will you vote on our debate then?
Posted by Everything 1 year ago
Everything
Looks like someone has a shitty life. Going around negating peoples' opinions cause you have no life. Hahahaha
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: stschiffman// Mod action: Removed<

3 points to Con (Arguments), 2 points to Pro (Conduct, S&G). Reasons for voting decision: I personally think the Treaty of Versailles was not fair, but I will not let that cloud my judgement. I would have left the "better conduct" section a tie had Con not used the word "bitch" in Round 1. Despite this, I feel like Con made better arguments. I do not feel like Pro's "to the victor goes the spoils" policy really makes the treaty fair. Oh yeah, and in terms of spelling and grammar, Pro made less mistakes, and the sources they cited were equally reliable.

[*Reason for removal*] (1) S&G is insufficiently explained. The voter cannot just compare the number of mistakes between debaters to make this decision, as this point can only be awarded in instances where one side's argument is unclear as a result of spelling/grammatical mistakes. (2) Arguments are insufficiently explained. The voter only analyzes Pro's argument, merely stating that Con made better arguments without pointing to examples or explaining why they were effective.
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