The Instigator
Pro (for)
2 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
4 Points

Water Pokemon are the best choice for starters

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/2/2015 Category: Games
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,197 times Debate No: 70887
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (1)




A few things to consider before accepting:
1. I have never played the DS game before (My info will come from online and the card game)
2. This is not a debate where you pick grass because grass has an advantage over water. (do not match them up in battle)
3.You will have to choose a starter type to argue for (grass or Fire)
4. Please be fair no trolling
5. When voting don't be biased.
6. Do not base your arguments off of your own pokemon in your games (i.e. "My level 55 charizard could beat a fraigater easily")
7.Please do some research before accepting.
8.Please choose the type you favor to argue for. Not one that is statistically better

R2: Lay out your argument
R3: Attack other person argument
R4: Defend your argument
R5: Final words

Have fun!


I accept this debate, and (most of) the rules bhu has set forth.

However, I express my concern over rule #8. I believe that in this scenario, statistically better (in terms of Atk., Def., etc.) should be accounted for. If we are arguing over which starter type is better, I believe a statistically better Pokemon should be regarded as part of judging, as it affects the player's decision, to an extent.

In addition, bhu and I have decided to use primarily Gen I, so this includes Charmander, Bulbasur, and Squirtle. My opponent implicitly stated that he would pick Squirtle, so I shall refute accordingly.

As well, the type that I choose in this scenario will be Fire, and my Pokemon shall be Charmander.

I agree to all other rules bhu has set forth.


And that's it! Thanks to bhu for the debate, and I wish him the best of luck.
Debate Round No. 1


I sorry for the confusion what I meant was: "Oh I pick grass because it has an advantage over water"

I belive water pokemon are the best starters because of these points:
1: it has been proved by science that squirtle (the water type starter of gen 1) is the best starter.
2: The Creators of the starters choose Squirtle (the water type starter of gen 1) over the other two.
3: Water pokemon are the best type (in my opinion)
4: In this top ten list Water is ranked Number 2 (only dragon type is beating it by 4%)
5: Water pokemon are normally the cutest

1: it has been proved by science that squirtle (the water type starter of gen 1) is the best starter.
Water pokemon have been proven to be better here is the link for you to look at:

2: The Creators of the starters choose Squirtle (the water type starter of gen 1) over the other two. Here is an excerpt from this site: (I take no credit for what is writen. this not my own work)

"Shigeru Ohmori, on the other hand, states a quite contrary opinion. Ever since the early beginnings of the Pokémon games, he has been the water-type guy. Back inPokémon Red and Blue, he picked Squirtle, while in Ruby and Sapphire Mudkip was the starter he chose. After hearing Ohmori speak about generation 3, Masuda also mentioned his favourite. Coincidentally, it is the only one that got a mega evolution inPokémon X and Y, Torchic. “I’m a huge fan of Torchic. I don’t know if you saw the intro movie of Pokémon X & Y, but I really pushed to get Torchic in there because its one of my favorite Pokémon. And even back with the Game Boy Advance SP, when Nintendo was making that, I actually made a request to them to make a Torchic-colored Game Boy Advanced SP.”

3: Water pokemon are the best type (in my opinion)
Water pokemon are the best because look at the way this works: Fire = strong attack/weak defence. Grass = Strong Defence/weak attack. Water = Both attack and defence are good

4: In this top ten list Water is ranked Number 2 (only dragon type is beating it by 4%)

5: Water pokemon are normally the cutest
Water pokemon are always so cute look at piplup, squirtle, totodile, and frookie. They are all so cute!



I thank bhu for the opportunity to debate a topic such as this.


I'd like to point out, before continuing, that arguments 2, 3 (somewhat), and 4 are appeals to authority, and 5 is simply a baseless opinion. They are simply "because x Pokemon type is favored by y group of people, then it must be good." This is a logical fallacy and I suggest these arguments not be considered to the voters. If opponent presents no new args in R2, I shall refute accordingly.

As well, this is a shared BoP debate, as outlined in the structure: bhu must prove Water type is superior to Fire, and I must prove Fire is superior to Water. My case will revolve around the game style of Kanto, the gyms of Kanto, the stats of the Pokemon in question, and evolutions.

Let's begin.


The players have chosen their starters. Tom decides to go with Bulbasur (Tom you idiot). James heads with Squirtle, and ULTRA MEGA BAD*SS KYLE picks Charmander.

Now, before I go further, here's a map of the Kanto Region in FireRed/LeafGreen: [1]

This map is key when talking about different Pokemon and their strengths/weaknesses throughout the game.


Early on in the game, many consider Charmander "weak" against the gyms, which is true, however, this promotes training harder to overcome and adapt a harder obstacle. It promotes exploration to find Pokemon that can help take out Brock, Misty, and even Lt. Surge. This is the true nature of a Pokemon game. Many don't like Bulbasaur because he's essentially a free pass past the first two gyms, which completely goes against an idea of exploring and training your Pokemon to overcome harder obstacles. As well, against later gyms the person will be weaker in comparison to the other two.

Squirtle is a fine mix between easy and hard. He doesn't struggle against the gyms and doesn't thrive either. Again, it doesn't promote exploration and training as much as Charmander, and isn't as great in the end either. With Charmander, training from the user pays off more, as Charizard is able to adapt to lots of situations, as opposed to Blastoise. Simply looking at their potential movesets [2] [3] shows that Charizard is able to adapt to more than Blastoise, reducing its overall weaknesses and countering with moves of his own. But I'll go into this later.

Viridian Forest is a good farming ground for early-level Charmanders. Since Bug is weak to Fire, Charmander is easily able to take down the bugs and get free XP. As well, Pikachu is able to be caught, and will be useful to the player later on.

This is probably the hardest for Charmander. The player must get some Normal/Bug type Pokemon in order to have a chance beating him. As well, they need to be relatively high level. Again, this promotes the nature of Pokemon; finding other Pokemon and training them well, not simply using only one Pokemon (most commonly your starter).

Another hard matchup. If you scavenge Viridian Forest, you're able to find a Pikachu, which helps a lot with this battle. Again, hard matchups earlier on promote growth of more Pokemon and not simply your starter. Around this point Charmander should be near Charmeleon.

Charmander (or Charmeleon, depending on farm) will finally no longer be at a disadvantage. And he will be able to level up even higher, and this is around when the tough early game starts to pay off. Charmander is no longer against a Gym that is a type he is weak against, so now he can gain some training of his own.

Because Charmander is no longer restricted, this is a good place to level up and for Charmeleon to gain more experience on the road to becoming Charizard.


Easy for Charmeleon. Free XP and Pokemon that are weak to his type. Likely near Charizard by now.

Charmeleon needs to play careful here, because Poison is a dangerous type to go against. He should try to utilize other Pokemon, but primarily use the Charmeleon if he is the highest level, as the Pokemon need to be taken care of quickly.

Preferably the Trainer should avoid use of the Fighting Type Hitmonchan or Hitmonlee he acquired a while ago. If he has Ghost Pokemon (from Lavender town), he should try to use those to his advantage.


Charmander should sit out here, and let some Water Pokemon do the job, preferably those acquired on the way there.

Easy, as Ground types cannot attack Flying types. As well, Water is super effective to Ground.

My argument is very brief, because it essentially boils down to this point: Charizard promotes the main theme of Pokémon, which is exploration and adapting to your opponents to overcome them. With Squirtle and Bulbasaur, the same isn't possible, and isn't near the same as the Pokemon experience provided. As well, it's pretty hard for a person to gain a good Fire type anywhere else within the game. With Charmander on your side, it's by far a better adventure than Bulbusar and Squirtle.

For these reasons, I believe the Fire type to be far superior to the Water type as a starter in the Kanto Region.

Debate Round No. 2


No time I post in round 4


I accept bhu moving his arguments to R4. But regardless, I shall refute his first argument, which is in regards to science.
While true, according to science Blastoise makes the best choice, if Pokemon is meant to be taken in a literal, scientific way, then lots would be extremely overpowered. For example, taken from Pokemon Sapphire, this is Magcargo's entry:
"MAGCARGO"s body temperature is approximately 18,000 degrees F. Water is vaporized on contact. If this POK"MON is caught in the rain, the raindrops instantly turn into steam, cloaking the area in a thick fog."
If this were true, Magcargo's body would be around 9,982 degrees Celsius, and is almost TWICE AS HOT AS THE SUN. If science truly applied to Pokemon, than anyone near a Magcargo would instantly be destroyed, pretty much.

Basically my refutation here is that Pokemon and science aren't meant to be truly connected. Pokemon is a FANTASY game, as such it often is outside the laws of science and physics with its Pokemon. Simply saying one is better "according to science" does not make it the better Pokemon, and, in fact, if I were to catch a Magcargo I would be dead right now, having done nothing.

I await bhu's R4.
Debate Round No. 3


R3: My opponents entire argument is saying charizard is better than squirtle but above I have proven by science squirtle is better. This makes my opponents argument completely useless!

R4: good job.

The thing is, the sciencs involved in mine shows the weakness to strength ratio. Also Magcargo isn't a starter makeing your reabuttal mute.

Sorry this is not to the best of my abillitys I have been very busy and tired this weekend...

Also I just got 6th in VA state wrestling!!!

Thank you

P.S. remember no debating round 5 only constructive critisisum.

(I'm really sorry about spelling)


Science argument: Refuted.
Arguments about appeal to authority: Logical fallacies, uncontested.
Argument about "cuteness": factless opinion.

Bhu has little to nothing to prove his side of the case. The only decent thing he has is the "science argument" but I explained why that is invalid as well, in R3.

"The thing is, the sciencs involved in mine shows the weakness to strength ratio. Also Magcargo isn't a starter makeing your reabuttal mute."

It isn't a starter, but it helps to illustrate my case that science in a Pokemon game isn't as evident as in the real world. If Blastoise were to use "Hydro Pump" according to SCIENCE, the Pokemon would be...dead. However, this isn't the case, and depending on Pokemon it may not even do that much damage.

Simply stating "It's better because of science!" doesn't make it good in the games, and this is what we are debating.

My entire argument remains intact. I ask the voters to keep this in mind when bhu replies with "constructive criticism".
I have nothing else to say as there are no true rebuttals to make. I have provided evidence as to why Charizard is better; it promotes the entire essence of Pokemon which is exploration and overcoming harder opponents.

Nothing else to say. Awaiting R5.
Debate Round No. 4


This round we give constructive criticisum.

But I have no critisium to give because I think I Didn't get my point across well enough never the less vote pro! (and not biased)


Constructive Criticism to Bhu:
1. Don't use appeal to authority arguments. They will often become considered invalid and they're a waste of your time to write.
2. No baseless opinions. My opinion is Fire Types are better, and I give reasons why as to why it is right. You, on the other hand, simply gave an opinion and used it for your argument with no basis or facts behind it whatsoever.
3. Try and improve spelling and grammar. You will be counted off if people notice it and it is poor.

Those are the main three criticisms I can think of.

Thank you for the debate, bhu!
Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Talonflamestar 1 year ago
What about Oshawott?
Posted by Valkrin 1 year ago
@ClashnBoom, can you please explain your RFD for awarding Pro sources?
Posted by Valkrin 1 year ago
They work, they just don't redirect to the desired article.
Try posting them in the comments.
Posted by RevNge 1 year ago
Your links don't work.
Posted by 2001bhu 1 year ago
In the last round you may not Debate only give !!!!CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM!!!! (keyword) to each other.
Posted by 2001bhu 1 year ago
got it
Posted by Valkrin 1 year ago
I may accept under Fire, but give me time; I have other things I need to work on first.
Posted by 2001bhu 1 year ago
In general but I would say more gen 1. But all games are legal.
Posted by Valkrin 1 year ago
Pokemon Red, Gold, FireRed, etc.
Do you mean a starter from a specific game or just in general out of all the regions?
Posted by 2001bhu 1 year ago
What do you mean?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by ClashnBoom 1 year ago
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:24 
Reasons for voting decision: Con had a very detailed argument.Pro work on your grammar and spelling.