The Instigator
TheGreatDebate
Pro (for)
Winning
54 Points
The Contender
DrAcula
Con (against)
Losing
9 Points

We Need a Border Wall

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/11/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,209 times Debate No: 260
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (22)
Votes (21)

 

TheGreatDebate

Pro

First of all, we cannot simply surrender to alien invasion, because it is painfully clear that illegal immigration has already had catastrophic effects on our nation and poses a clear and present danger to our future! In short, we need to protect our borders, and as Washington Post columnist Charles Krauthammer said: Fences Work, that's why people have them around their houses, it forces people who want to enter their home to "Knock on the door."
Illegal Immigration is a very serious problem in America today. Now don't get me wrong, immigration in it self is a great thing, but not when it is done illegally. That is why I stand firmly resolved, That the United States federal government should substantially change its policy on illegal immigration

Observation 1. Definitions
Illegal - Against law: contravening a specific law, especially a criminal law.

Immigration - Arrival of settlers in new country: the act of entering a new country to settle permanently.

Substantial - considerable: considerable in amount, extent, value, or importance

Observation 2. Harms: Illegal Immigration is ruining America
TheBorderfenceproject organization - Illegal immigration is ruining our economy
(2005)

"This colonization is literally swamping our jails, our judicial system, our schools, our hospitals, our healthcare clinics, our entry-level workforce and our welfare rolls... with dire results. Because many of these illegals send as much as 75% of their illicitly earned "black-market" wages back to their "home" countries, this wave of alien workers is strip-mining our economy. Those dollars are being shipped south of the border -- never to be seen in the American economy again."

Docs journal - Illegal aliens threaten U.S. medical system, Docs journal reports hospitals being closed, previously vanquished diseases being spread
March 13, 2005
According to Madeleine Pelner Cosman's study, 84 California hospitals are closing their doors as a direct result of the rising number of illegal aliens and their non-reimbursed tax on the system.
Further evidence will be brought up in the 2 AC

OBSERVATION 3. The GOAL of the US Federal Government today toward illegal immigration is to build a limited fence on the Mexican border, USA TODAY, 26 Oct 2006, "Bush signs bill to build 700-mile fence on US-Mexico border," http://www.usatoday.com...

"President Bush this morning signed into law a bill authorizing the federal government to install fencing, cameras, motion sensors and other types of barriers to stem illegal immigration along 700 miles of the U.S.-Mexican border."

OBSERVATION 4. The Status Quo fence effort is failing in 2 ways:
FAILURE 1: Current fences on the border are few and feeble
Tyche Hendricks (Staff Writer), 26 Feb 2006, SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE, "Border security or boondoggle?" http://www.sfgate.com...

"Fencing of some kind already exists along 106 miles of the border, mostly near cities, including San Diego, El Paso and Nogales, Ariz. Most of it consists of welded panels of corrugated steel recycled from portable landing strips the Army used in Vietnam. Elsewhere, the international line varies from a few strands of barbed wire tacked to wooden fence posts to a winding river where egrets and roseate spoonbills forage."

FAILURE 2: U.S. –Canadian borders remain wide open

US Senators call for more security at Canadian border
THE CANADIAN PRESS, Sep 28, 2007, Beth Gorham

"It's so hard to believe there's been so little progress in plugging these gaping security holes," Iowa Senator Chuck Grassley, a Republican, told a Capitol Hill hearing.
"They're simply wide open, waiting to be crossed by anyone carrying anything, even a dirty bomb or a suitcase-type nuclear device."

OBSERVATION 4. SOLVENCY. The complete border fence should be the first priority in our approach to reducing illegal immigration.

Prof. Jan C. Ting (Former Assistant Commissioner of the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service, Senior Fellow of the Foreign Policy Research Institute, professor of Law at Temple Univ. Beasley School of Law), 2005,

"Immigration, National Security, and the Need for a Border Fence," p. 7
The fence is the essential element in any plan to limit illegal immigration across our border. The southern border is the first priority because of the large numbers of illegal entrants compared to our northern border.

CIS: Center for immigration studies
"Border Enforcement. Despite significant increases in funding in recent years, efforts at the border are still inadequate. At any given time, there are perhaps 1,800 Border Patrol agents along more than 2,000 miles of border with Mexico. The Border Patrol needs to be at least double its current size and the border needs a system of fences and other barriers to help the agents in their work."

OBSERVATION 6. Mexican and Canadian border fencing produces multiple ADVANTAGES
ADVANTAGE 1: Crime reduction: The experience with the San Diego fence shows that border areas are liberated from drug smugglers and criminals, with a dramatic reduction in illegal immigration. Casey Wian (CNN reporter), 26 Oct 2006, "Lou Dobbs Tonight," CNN transcript, (brackets added) http://transcripts.cnn.com... (brackets added)

"Ten years ago, before this fence was built, it probably wouldn't have been safe for us to be standing here. This area [the border near San Diego] was in the absolute control of drug and illegal alien smugglers. Robberies, rapes, murders even happened here on a regular basis. But now, because of this double fencing, the Border Patrol is in firm control of this region."

ADVANTAGE 2: Foundation for the future: The fence is needed as a first step toward all other immigration reforms. Prof. Ting, who in the context of this evidence is referring back to his recommendation of a complete 2000-mile border fence that we cited earlier, said in 2005:

"Immigration, National Security, and the Need for a Border Fence," p. 8
"The fence is essential whether or not we favor President Bush's guest worker plan, and whether or not we favor reform of our legal immigration programs. Without the fence to control illegal immigration, no reform of immigration is possible. Any reform will fail under the rising tide of illegal immigration and the dangers that accompany it."
DrAcula

Con

Yes, we need a border wall, but not on Mexico, but on Canada. I realize that there are a lot of illegals coming from there, but the Can-Am border is even easier to infiltrate (i remember reading something about it). As of now, there haven't been any reports of terrorists choosing to enter through Mexico, but with the heightened sense of security, it'd be wiser to come through Canada.

I also believe that the Illegals stimulate the economy. It helps small businesses prosper, because they don't have to pay them as much, and ultimately, that's a good thing, because small businesses seem to be more personable than bigger corporations.
Debate Round No. 1
TheGreatDebate

Pro

You will find that in my furst post I mentioned that we need a wall on our Border with Canada. BUT what heppens once we put a wall up there? Mexico is still wide open, and more people will still come through. That is why we need a wall on BOTH borders, as I have suggested

Now some Illegals MIGHT stimulate the economy is some ways, but in reality they are a MAJOR harm.

From the Center for immigratin Studies (CIS)

*Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.

*Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

*With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.

*On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.

*Many of the costs associated with illegals are due to their American-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth. Thus, greater efforts at barring illegals from federal programs will not reduce costs because their citizen children can continue to access them.

Also

JAMES RUFUS KOREN
Antelope Valley Press

LOS ANGELES - Through their citizen children, illegal immigrants in Los Angeles County collect $420 million annually in welfare and food stamps, according to a report requested by 5th District County Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich.

The Los Angeles County Department of Public Social Services told the supervisor that payments to illegal immigrants' children amount to approximately 24% of the county's combined CalWORKS and food stamps budget, officials said.

"What we found was kind of astonishing," said Tony Bell, an Antonovich aide.

Each month, the county doles out $77 million in CalWORKS assistance, $20 million of which goes to the citizen dependent children of illegal immigrants, said Helen Berberian, another Antonovich aide. CalWORKS is the state's welfare-to-work program.

Along with CalWORKS assistance, the county approves $70 million every month in food stamps, with $15 million going to legal children of illegal immigrants, Berberian said.

The welfare payments go to nearly 100,000 children of 60,000 illegal immigrants, Antonovich's staff said. His staff estimated that Los Angeles County has almost 12% of the United States' illegal immigrant population.

Illegals do much more damage then good. In a country where we have free markets, illegal immigration is not good, for it prevents the "creative destruction" that is needed to keep our ceconomy competetive. Creative destruction is the loss of old jobs (Like lettuce picking) and the replacment of those jobs with better ones. Who takes over the lettuce picking? Machines. (This is found in J.D. Hayworth's book: "Watever it takes") As long as there are illegals coming in and taking these "crud jobs" there is a prevention of creative destruction. These are just a few reasons why we need a compleat U.S. Border wall, on both borders.
DrAcula

Con

So I'm basically relying on analytical's, lol, so here it goes.

The border wall may not be the best solution. Depending on the size, Mexicans can come up through the gulf, and Canadians can come down through the great lakes. They're always going to find a way in. Instead of focusing on a border wall, we need to increase intelligence of who is getting in, to make sure no terrorists get in.
Debate Round No. 2
TheGreatDebate

Pro

But if you put up a Border wall, then you can focus on the other ways of entry. The Coast Guard can patrol the Great Lakes and the Gulf, we can have a Sea wall, there might be infa-red motion detectors, the ideas are inumerable! BUT it all starts with a Border Wall. Believe me, once you have taken care of one problem, you can fix others.
DrAcula

Con

I think I'm going to go ahead and concede, no one vote for me, it's just you pretty much wiped the floor with me, lol, and I do like teh idea of a border wall, I just needed experience debating.
Debate Round No. 3
22 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by superchico77 9 years ago
superchico77
Apparently most of you have kept yourselves in little boxes and have no idea what different styles of debate mean!!! Thegreatdebate used real life evidence to back up his logical arguments...that is how you debate. His introduction was back by the evidence he used later on, or maybe you never read that far.....16 billion dollars, I believe. Evidence is the only thing we have to back up our arguments...personal opinions don't count, logical arguments will only take you so far.

Dracula just needs some practice, that's all.

Thegreatdebate, the article by james Rufus Koren was enormous......cut it down to size...use ellipses if you have to, but "cut the crap" and keep only the vital information.
Posted by clsmooth 9 years ago
clsmooth
Um, hello! Of course there's nothing wrong with being a constitutionalist. I never said there was. There is something wrong with being a protectionist/mecantilist.
Posted by TheGreatDebate 9 years ago
TheGreatDebate
Oh.

Anyway whats wrong with the articls I posted? They showed the eco cost oof Illegal immigration.....
Posted by TheGreatDebate 9 years ago
TheGreatDebate
What Article did I cut/paste? This is my own (Backup) 1AC.

clsmooth: There is nothing wrong with being a constitutionalist, it is the Feds job to protect us, so why dont you let them do it. Now, if MarineCoreConservative wanted Flag Burnin, Gay marrige, and abortion (which he is not)...... then he would be a liberal socialist.
Posted by clsmooth 9 years ago
clsmooth
Wanting to protect the nation's borders makes you a constitutionalist. This is one of the legitimate roles of the federal government.

Wanting to centrally plan the economy via an immigration policy influenced by protectionism makes you a liberal socialist.

You say, "not only for the terrorists but to keep our jobs secure."

Adam Smith is spinning in his grave. This is exactly the mentality he attacked in The Wealth of Nations.

Mercantilism and central planning do not work. This was settled back in 1776 and maybe you heard about the Great Depression, which drove the point home again.

I find it astounding that the socialist public school system continues to churn out students with a pre-capitalist understanding of economics.
Posted by MarineCorpsConservative 9 years ago
MarineCorpsConservative
So...... me wanting a border fence makes me a liberal socialist? I am focused on the security of this country mainly and i think the border fence can help with this issue.
Posted by clsmooth 9 years ago
clsmooth
Wow, MarineCorpConservative is very anti-capitalist. Protectionism and mercantilism are not good for the country. The border issue is an issue of security, not an issue of protectionism. Study history. Protectionism leads to war, poverty, and depression. You really should change your name to MarineLiberalSocialist.
Posted by KrzaRected 9 years ago
KrzaRected
Hahaha Dracula is right they are both horrible debaters. Especially greatdebate He just copies and pastes.
Posted by MarineCorpsConservative 9 years ago
MarineCorpsConservative
We do need a border wall or fence. Not only for the terrorist threat but to keep our jobs secure. The immigrants that come into this country the legal way are also out there working harder than ever. I do not agree with not letting anybody in, just that everyone should do it the legal way. If you think that illegal aliens can do a job better than legal citizens you should move to a different country and make them co workers. We as americans need the jobs that that the illegals are taking from us. There are unemployed people out there that would love to have a well paid job that an illegal has.
Posted by Lantzk 9 years ago
Lantzk
DrAcula,

You really need to put in some more effort if you want to win. That's it, there really is just not that much to say, because you had so many openings to beat TheGreatDebate that it isn't even funny.

Really, try using something other than just "analytical's", if you're doing this, then you're on the web, use it.

Also, try to use correct grammar and spelling.
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