The Instigator
soundandfury11
Pro (for)
Winning
48 Points
The Contender
whitesoxfan450
Con (against)
Losing
18 Points

We (The US Government) should not give monetary aid to Africa

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/11/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 7,413 times Debate No: 262
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (22)

 

soundandfury11

Pro

1. America is in financial debt and we are already trillions of dollars in debt. Promoting monetary spending in any country is absolute fiscal irresponsibility!

2. African governments are corrupt and giving money to them only fosters authoritarianism/tyranny. The money does not go to the cause.

3. Empirically, foreign aid does not solve problems. The world is still combating avian flu, AIDS and HIV, west nile, etc. We have not solved these issues and monetary aid will not solve these issues still.

4.
Because we are in debt, at war, and the money will not go to the selected cause, we should not give monetary aid to Africa. If we do give money to Africa, this is irresponsible and immoral!!!
whitesoxfan450

Con

1. Although the US is trillions in debt, funding for Iraq continues. We are fine rite now, and funding for Iraq! Its not being irresponsible.

2. African Governments are corrupt, but however, I would like to bring up a new plan. The United States and The EU together work to give AID to Africa. European countries have sanctions with Africa, and would pressure them to spend the money in a good way. Also, depending on the cause or plan, some money does go to specific people(NGO's or other organizations)

3. Foreign Aid solves. Countries are at work with those issues, and certain countries have more technology than others. If more than one country helps, the probability of solving is high.

4. How is giving money to these people immoral? Letting people loose their LIVES IS IMMORAL! Lives outweigh all disadvantages, and is the ultimate thing we must solve for.
Debate Round No. 1
soundandfury11

Pro

1. We are not fine rght now. Funding for Iraq has put us in debt. How long will Americans allow for taxes to be raised? For all we know, spending money on Africa will send us into economic recession that we cannot escape from, and lead to another depression similar to the 30s. Will the economy recover? I doubt it. We cannot logically think that we can spend money in Iraq, which is draining our funds AND spend MORE money in Africa. Spending more money and putting america into more debt is bad. It is illogical and irresponsible.

2. You concede my point that African Governments are corrupt.

3. actually I like andthis counter plan- HOWEVER, this does not technically argue against my point because my only argument was that we should not give "monetary aid" to africa.Therefore this should not be considered part of our debate because it doesn't involve money. If your plan consists of sending monetary aid instead of strictly NGO's etc. then we should not do it because of my first point. If your plan consists of strictly people or something of the like then it can be considered part of the debate.

3. Foreign aid does not solve. If, you do not concede the point that we should not send monetary aid, then your entire counter plan fails.
We can not responsibly send money to Africa in our current debt status
If the European union alone sends the aid, then this will fail since the European Union aid is tied and bad. Empirically, the European union does not solve and has not solved any major world problems.
monetary Foreign aid has not solved in the past and will not solve in the future! sending pointless money to African governments will not work.

4. giving money to these people is completely immoral!! sending money to governments that will spend it unwisely/ not spend it on the people at all is failure as foreign aid. Monetary aid will not solve any problems in Africa because it will not go to the right cause. Therefore, giving money to African governments with a knowledge of this is IMMORAL.

This debate is about "monetary aid"
Giving money will not save any lives. Therefore, the lives lost by throwing away money to countries that will not prophet from it is bad. Lives do outweigh. I completely agree. The lives lost in my case will outweigh lives saved if we give monetary aid. Fostering tyrrany/authoritarianism causes war, poverty, etc. This impact should be the deciding factor

Thank you. Good debate so far.

good debate so far. Thank you for your time.
whitesoxfan450

Con

We don't need to raise taxes by much. We are spending money on more things, and we are ok. What I mean bu OK is that we all are still here, no depression has happened, and etc. Also, I stated how the EU would be able to help, if we ask. Also, there are plans set up(Water for the Poor Act) and we just need to put out the cash.

2. Yes, African Governments are corrupt, but thats why the EU will help. They have been in a similar situation, and can help them along with us. ALSO, NOT ALL African Governments are corrupt.

3. Yes, it does go with money. Giving these people money is part of my initial plan! ALSO, Water, food, and etc is neded by MONEY spent.The plan isn't specifically NGO's, its NGO's, and governments(African Union included)

4. Foreign Aid Solves. It solves for Soft Power. also, here is proof.
Foreign Aid helps the recipient countries economies.
Kargbo 06

Sierra Leone's economy is beginning to gain its lost glory with the effort of government, supported by international doner agencies one of which is the International Monetary Fund(IMF) which recently approved a 3 year arrangement under the Poverty Reduction and Growth Facility scheme for a total sum of US$46.3m to support the governments 2006-2008 economic program. There is more included, but I felt this was all that was necessary. This is an example of foreign aid solving. The EU alone will not send aid, both the EU and US together will. The EU is the world leader in aid to Africa, and is best positioned to solve. The US is a leader in technology. Both sending technology AND money will solve.

5. Giving money isn't immoral. I already stated the EU will stop the African Unions from using the money wrongly.

6. Money solves. water and food costs MONEY, which these people need. Money can also help these people get improved homes, and help school children. What I am saying is give money AND Water/food aid.

Same to you, Interesting debate! Are you on any debate teams?
Debate Round No. 2
soundandfury11

Pro

1.I repeat, our deficit is NOT ok. It is not ok by any means. In fact, we are headed into what is inevitably going to be a repeat of the great depression. The US dollar is at an all time low. Oil prices have peaked. US inflation could drive interest rates to 20%. This would collapse the bond and housing markets, wiping out trillions of dollars of purchasing power- We are already spending money in Iraq for the war on "terror." If the US goes to war with Iran, which is a threateningly realistic possibility, or if any other number of things happen, the US will lapse into depression and that could realistically lead to another war. History is full of cycles "history repeats itself…" While not always correct, this example is one of truth. Logically, we cannot expect to reasonably give a substantial amount of money to Africa without risking complete recession. I extend my notion that this is fiscal irresponsibility!

2.EU Aid is ineffective. For example, in 2005 12.5 billion dollars (1/3 of reported European development assistance) did not provide any new resources for developing counties. There is no proof that European Union aid will work in the future and it can not be proven since they have not helped in the past.

3.You yourself say African governments are corrupt. You mention that the EU will help (and as I have proved above, I do not believe they will) and you say that they have been in a similar situation. What situation are you referring to? Even if Europe had been in a similar situation, this does not have anything to do with its' ability to help Africa. Also, it does not matter that ALL African governments are not corrupt. This is rather vague and can not be proven. How do we know for sue which African governments are corrupt or not? Aid empirically does not get to their people through African governments and therefore is an irresponsible way to give aid.

4.By giving aid to Africa, we are fostering their lack of independence. Africa does not need the US as a crutch, and we cannot afford to be their crutch. Fostering authoritarianism and tyranny by giving money to their governments is illogical.

5.Ah, yes. Your plan does have to do with money then. As formerly stated, money is a huge cause of concern in America. We are trillions of dollars in debt! Our debt increases daily. Bush obviously has no intention of ending the war with Iraq and also has threatened war with Iran. This war on terror has cost America a lot. It is fiscal insanity to spend MORE on aid that will not work. Similarly, you further push America into debt by not only using NGO's. I am not trying apathetic when I say that we cannot afford to help Africa. I believe this is a hugely important issue. I am saying that we absolutely CAN NOT afford to help them, lest we send America spiraling into economic recession, further debt, depression, and ultimately war, and possibly world war. To do so would be national suicide.

6.You say that foreign aid solves for soft power however, you do not specify whether you are talking about European/American soft power. I shall assume you are talking about US soft power because it is part of the resolution. Foreign aid does not solve for soft power. Many, many countries are not going to like that the US, the "international bully" is going in where other countries have already "staked claims." For instance, China has huge oil interests in Africa and is giving aid to many different parts of Africa. Russia is also going to be offended that the US is intervening in other countries. We should not risk what little soft power we still have to go fight for a cause that will not be fruitful and will cause bigger problems than we already have.

7. You state that "Foreign aid helps recipient countries economy" by Kargbo in 06, however you do not provide a link and I can't really argue this point without one. In my opinion, I have already proven that fostering authoritarianism will NOT help the economy. All money that we give will go directly to the government. Sending people/money from the US will also be just as detrimental. European aid is tied and bad as I have previously stated and sending the European union to help would just be pointless.

8.You say that foreign aid solves, however it clearly doesn't. Have governments tried to give aid to Africa before? Absolutely. Are the problems in Africa "solved" ?No. They may have been lessened (Such as in sierra leone) I completely concede this point. However, I am saying that we can not and should not give monetary aid to Africa because it is fiscally irresponsible and that corrupt African governments will take advantage of this monetary aid. We do not have the money!!

9.If you would further specify what kind of "technology" you plan to send to Africa it would be deeply appreciated. I do not deny or concede that we should send technology, I am merely concerned with monetary aid.

10.you state that "Giving money isn't immoral." It is not the giving of money that is immoral. It is who the money gets to, and what the effect of it is. These are the two important points we should focus on. The money will not get to the intended recipient, therefore all efforts would be futile anyway. Furthermore, the effect will not be gratifying as it will not solve and will plunge America (as well as the world) into depression and as I have stated, war.

a.If you ware wondering about the war link (how debt leads to war), I could further explain this. However for now I would just like to point out the high percentage of empirical wars that occur after major debt and depression. It is pretty self evident…

The important thing to consider now is impacts. Consider… IF we do not give monetary aid to Africa, everything will continue on. Problems do not escalate quickly. If they did it would be a different matter. Things in Africa will continue. Other nations give them aid, etc. This is the SQO. In coming years, we save our money, stop our debt, eventually get out of economic recession and in the future are able to give money to Africa. This is obviously the preferable option. Conversely, IF we give monetary aid to Africa, then we risk complete global economic collapse and another world war. We do not want another World war (nuclear weapons exist in more abundance now than sixty years ago!!!)

Excellent debate so far. I appreciate the thought and time you have given to your debate. You make very good arguments. Yes I have been on both LD and CX debate although I c prefer CX *better clash :)
whitesoxfan450

Con

Ok, its later in the debate, so I will only respond to what I feel is needed

2. EU is effective! I already stated the EU is the world leader in AID to Africa, and is best positioned to solve(thats Dochas 04) The EU is also the world leader in clean water, and has the best techniques and technologies to help Africa.

3. Our Aid would go to NGO's, people, AND Governments. So, the governments wouldn't be irresponsible for ALL of the money. What I ment by similar is that Europe and Africa are bound together by common history, interlocking cultures, and shared objectives. ALSO, they are very close together. I'm not 100% sure which governments are corrupt, but not all of them are(Take Cape Town, in South Africa, for example)

5. Yes, the US is in debt, and thats why the EU will help us with it. We have plans, they have money.

6. It solves mainly for US SP, but also EU too. It helps get rid of the Idea that America is just a snotty, self-centered country. We aren't risking our little bit of SP, we are trying to raise it.

8. There have been foreign aid sent to Africa, but it hasn't solved 100%. However, we are working on it. US action will help in this, because of our technology(Ill specify in my #9) Also, lives have been saved!

9. In terms of technology, it would help solve for the water crisis. We would send machines, to help purify the dirty water in African areas, and help bring more water to areas that are desertified. We are also working on Vaccines(Not just US, worldwide help) to help stop diseases.

10. As I already stated, the money goes to Governments, NGO's, AND people. It won't be misused becuase the EU will help pressure the people to use it correctly, because of their SP. If we don't give AID, these people will continue dying. Take this for example: The Water Crisis kills more than WAR, terrorism, and weapons of mass destruction COMBINED. 60 CHILDREN die in about every 8 minutes because of it! My impacts outweigh, its MORE dying. And its happening RIGHT THIS SECOND! However, I do agree with your last statement. The money from the US doesn't need to be sent now. We can wait till the War is over. Until then, The EU can take care of it, while we send technology.

Great debate! I am a Novice Policy debater, and I am trying LD in about a month. Debating is a lot of fun, and makes you think! Thanks for a great brain teaser, no doubt, my favorite debate I have had on debate.org! :)
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mrmatt505 9 years ago
mrmatt505
I have one thing to say: Corruption. Foreign aid fuels corruption in Africa.
Posted by iamsano 9 years ago
iamsano
hi
good debate. i guess the opposition conceeded to the motion amd yeah that is just not encouraged. i believe we should have conditional aid but if i were the opposition i would attack the type of conditions being imposed. I just think we can say that america should keep giving the money no matter the type of leaders we have in Africa.
good debate
Posted by whitesoxfan450 9 years ago
whitesoxfan450
ha ha, I am trying everything!

And yes, Kritiks annoy me! Topicality can be ok sometimes, though
Posted by soundandfury11 9 years ago
soundandfury11
thanks for the comments everyone. they are very helpful!

yes I do know it is the policy resolution. I wanted to try my hand at the neg since I normally prefer the aff. I also wanted to debate without having "topicality/kritik/etc." in the way because they irritate me. Getting picky about the wording takes away from the debate. This one turned out really well.

and whitesoxfan...cx is way superior to LD...but good luck with that.
Posted by clsmooth 9 years ago
clsmooth
How about the FACT that all foreign aid is unconstitutional? Where in the Constitution is the government granted the authority to steal my money to give it to foreign dictators?

You are both arguing from the presumption that our government is dictatorial and may do anything it wants.

If you want aid to Africa, donate to charity.

I guess I have to give the edge to soundandfury because at least he/she recognizes the deficit for the problem that it is. However, foreign aid (especially to Africa) is so minature in compared to the rest of the budget, this is not the right reason we shouldn't have aid to Africa. The reasons are:

1. It is illegal (as per the Constitution)

2. It is immoral to involuntarily tax for charitable purposes -- it assumes that the government knows which causes to give to better than individuals do themselves

3. Aid demonstrably does not work and serves more to prop up dictators and create a culture of dependency than it does to help poor people.
Posted by whitesoxfan450 9 years ago
whitesoxfan450
yes, I know its the topic, and its a great topic to debate on. And thanks for the suggestion, will remember!
Great debate to you to!

Willact, thanks for comment!

Oh, and YES, Novices(including me) do drop impacts often! That one thing I am working on, and also a reason I signed up for Debate.org(practice, and fun!)

And anwermate, shure will! I am just trying a lot of types, so I know what to do when I am JV and Varsity. And Ill debate you tomorrow! :)
Posted by anwermate 9 years ago
anwermate
do varsity cx its like 20 times better than ld. also i would like to debate one of you, since im bored
Posted by hattopic 9 years ago
hattopic
Oh, and sorry Pro, I completely missed your impacts in your closing, I must have skipped over it somehow.
Posted by hattopic 9 years ago
hattopic
Willact, that's because we weren't debating policy, and of course you don't win on impact, however if the other side doesn't have any impact and the arguments are about even, then the impact does play an important part in the decision. And in novice debate (which is what I was specifically referring too) a lot of competitors drop their impact, or forget to rebut the other sides impact, or completely fail to list an impact, and yeah, impact is a fairly important part of policy debate. If one side says "If we provide aid to Africa it will save millions of lives" and the other side says "But providing aid to Africa is bad for the economy" the side that has an actual impact has the better point. In that sort of situation one would simply point out that the other side had no impact, which would play a role in the judges decision.
Posted by willact723 9 years ago
willact723
I have to admit i'm somewhat shocked at hattopic's comments, because he didn't follow debate practice in the one i'm currently in. Best actual debate i've seen here on Debate.org. Wish everyone was like this.

(PS. You don't win on "impact")
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