The Instigator
Thorwald
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Stonewall
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

We are in the 'days of Noah' with 'the blind leading the blind'.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/1/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,106 times Debate No: 37249
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (22)
Votes (0)

 

Thorwald

Pro

I missed responding to others' responses on my previously posted debates, before the deadlines. I am a self-employed accountant, and must break away from here sporadically, as I receive client's information that I must process. This is how I make my living.

I have read ALL responses, and they follow the responses I previously received on many Christian forums, in the past. No one, understands or follows the scriptures, properly. Let us look at what the KJV Bible teaches us (The new 'bibles' are not acceptable to God, and the Holy Spirit does NOT recognize them...they are based on human vanity, and have CHANGED the Word of God);

1) The road is very NARROW to heaven, and FEW will travel this road.
2) Many 'Christian' churches teach and practice false doctrines that are OPPOSITE to the scriptures.
3) You will be THROWN OUT OF THE CHURCH, when God gives you the truth, because no one will believe you ("If they threw the master out, they will surely throw you out.")
4) John 14:21-23 tells us that Jesus will MANIFEST himself to His chosen sheep.
5) We WILL RETURN to the days of Noah.
6) The list goes on.........

There are 'millions' who believe in Christ, today. Unfortunately, FEW follow His scriptures properly, or FEAR God. The responses to my postings on the debates I started, prove this. The responses are filled with BLINDNESS to the truth. They are 'all over the map'. It is apparent, that no one CARES to read the Bible and ASK GOD for WISDOM in order to properly understand His Word. Even the Bible warns of 'ever learning but not coming to an understanding', and that God will take the 'wise' in their own 'wisdom' [vanity]. It is also written that 'talebearers' will face the same 'separation from God' as 'the wise'.

If you wish to speak on behalf of God, I would advise you to seek/knock/ask God for WISDOM, before you open your mouth, or write on HIS behalf. The scriptures tell you to do this.

If 'THE WORLD' loves you for what you teach [many will support you and your postings]
then YOU KNOW YOU ARE IN TROUBLE. It is when the the world 'HATES YOU' [disagrees with you] when you teach the truth, that you know you are correct in what you teach.

Pay attention to God's Word, and ask the Holy Spirit to differentiate between 'what you believe', and what the real truth is, no matter how many 'negative' responses from 'the world that you may receive. Make certain that you are, in fact, one of THE FEW who Christ has chosen as His sheep.
Stonewall

Con

I accept this challenge. I preface this by saying I am a Christian who has done a fair amount of reading on the subject of Christianity in general.

I see that much of your argument hinges on the fact that most people don't follow scripture. This might be true. Can I assume that you do follow scripture? That is, literally? After all, in 2nd Peter 1:20 (KJV), it says "...that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." This says that no part of the Bible is up for interpretation. Nada. Zip. Zero.

And if that's true, then you should agree with every law of the Bible: The Ten Commandments, and everything Leviticus says too. Like 19:27, "Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard." So, that's a nix on shaving. Or 19:19, "...neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee." Man, hope your shirts don't have mixed fabrics. Oh, and these aren't out of context either. But those are just minor things, we shouldn't focus on that. You're right (even though the Bible says you're wrong). How about a more serious subject... hm, what about rape? Lev. 19:20, "And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free." Yeah, she was married and raped. Put her to death. But not the guy; it's not really his fault she's married. And you're a literalist, so you kind of have to put her to death, right?

And, you know what, you don't really get to judge other people for what they believe, right? After all, Matthew 7:1- "Judge ye not, lest ye be judged." Everybody knows that one.

"He's slipped!" you think, "for I have an ace in the hole!" Lev. 19:15: "In righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour." Ah, you got me... but, if you are going with what Leviticus says, then you can't pick-and-choose verses. Wait, hold on a second... did the Bible contradict itself? No... well, maybe a little. Kind of. See, the Bible does contradict itself. Go ahead, check it out: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com... Quite a few, huh?

So, yeah, I might not be a Bible literalist. That's because I cannot, in good conscience, put to death a woman who was raped. I cannot obey one commandment while simultaneously breaking another law of the Bible. It's actually impossible. There is literally nothing to say to defend this. The Bible does err. By the Bible's logic, nobody can get to heaven because it's impossible. So, really, what's the point in trying? I just think being a good person while I'm here makes a difference. If I end up in Hell for that, I guess so be it. But I don't think God's that cruel.
Debate Round No. 1
Thorwald

Pro

Thank you for your response. Yes, I do follow the scriptures. Do I 'fall off the wagon', at times?...Yes, of course. Even Paul did so. He states that his 'carnal thoughts/deeds' are in conflict with his spiritual desire to follow Christ's teachings. Everyone faces this. This is how Satan gets to us.

Let us look at a very simple example. If you 'stub your toe', do you immediately thank God for letting Satan tempt you, or does the excruciating pain make you speak one or more 'expletives' (four letter words)? We are warned, that even the 'elect' have to be careful. We are told to not worry about the evil that will come tomorrow, as there is enough evil in the world today that we must face.

Satan is the Prince 'of the world'. He wants to claim EVERYBODY as his follower. He has great powers, in order to tempt us. Our only defence, is our belief and trust in God and His Word. God will only let Satan tempt us, to the point where we 'break'. We ALWAYS have the power to 'turn the other cheek'. If we did not have this power, we would be doomed from the start.
Stonewall

Con

...I've read your response time and time again, and, with the exception of the first paragraph, I can't find how it relates to your original argument at all. I understand how no one's perfect and that we all make mistakes. That actually kind of serves as the basis for my Round One argument. You didn't address anything you or I said about scripture, or about how your opinions are any more valid than any church that you deem unfit to teach scripture.

I gotta ask, did you start this argument with the intent of having a debate, or merely sending a message that holds little ground?

I have nothing else to say except I will forfeit the following round if you can't add anything more to the conversation. I don't want to waste my time doing so.

Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 2
Thorwald

Pro

Thorwald forfeited this round.
Stonewall

Con

Well, that's a fine how-d'ya-do. Vote con.
Debate Round No. 3
22 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Albert 3 years ago
Albert
Jesus, is the Son of God, and the Word. This has far more evidence then your theory of separating to make four.

I have no idea why you feel its needed to add more confusing theories to the bible, when today the biggest problem is Christians not follow the current bible written, which is the same as always.
Posted by Thorwald 3 years ago
Thorwald
Albert,

Yes, there are 'four' figures involved in The Trinity and The Godhead. The Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) were BEFORE Jesus (Lord of Hosts). The 'SON' of The Trinity, is OUR Father in heaven and Jesus' Father in heaven. The SON of The Trinity is The Lord God Almighty who is sitting on His throne, in Revelation chapter 4. The Godhead consists of 'TWO' figures (per Isaiah 44:6). These two figures, The Lord God Almighty and His only begotten Son (Jesus...The Lord of Hosts and Lamb/redeemer).

1 Timothy 6:16 and John 5:37, make it very clear, that there is a Father who cannot be seen by any man/woman, and His voice has never been heard by mankind, AT ANY TIME. It is The Lord God Almighty (The SON of The Trinity) who has been seen and heard by mankind. Even Revelation 1:6 KJV Bible tells us, that GOD (The Lord God Almighty) has a FATHER. The 'bibles' created after the KJV Bible have CHANGED the scriptures, through VANITY, and obscure the basis by which we can seek and understand THE TRUTH. Only an anointed Israelite can change the scriptures, after receiving 'changes' from GOD.
Posted by Albert 3 years ago
Albert
You said four not three, no?
Posted by Thorwald 3 years ago
Thorwald
Albert,

Do NOT put words in my mouth. I ASSUME no such thing. Jesus was the 'transmitter' of the truth. It is the fault of the 'receiver' as to whether the receiver understood 'what' Jesus transmitted. When in doubt, it was also the responsibility of the receiver to seek the wisdom from Jesus/God, in order to 'understand' what he/she heard.
Posted by Albert 3 years ago
Albert
Although I agree the Church is very sick, I dont see providing a cure.
Jesus clearly directs our attention to Himself, His Father, and the Spirit. Anything other then, Father, Son, Holy Spirit are contrary to early believers, and IF they got it wrong, then your assuming Jesus was a bad teacher.
Posted by Thorwald 3 years ago
Thorwald
The scriptures contain an error in the understanding of The Trinity and The Godhead. As I have said previously, Isaiah and the disciples/apostles, KNOW that there is an 'invisible to man' FATHER. They are CORRECT. However, Jesus Christ IS NOT the only begotten Son of the 'invisible' Father. Jesus Christ is the 'first born of ALL creation'. Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the invisible Father's SON (The Lord God Almighty).

The Holy Spirit/Ghost IS NOT part of The Godhead (Isaiah 44:6). Only The Lord God Almighty and Jesus Christ make up The Godhead. The invisible Father is The Father of The Lord God Almighty (The SON of The Trinity).

ALL FOUR FIGURES came to me in my second vision. I was not allowed to see The invisible Father or His Holy Spirit. They were at the end of a 'channel' going upwards from me through pure white clouds, that filled the room where I was sitting, to it seemed, forever. They CONTROLLED the vision. Jesus Christ and The Lord God Almighty then appeared, standing in the clouds, to the right of this channel. They were in the 'express image' of each other.

You may believe whatever you wish. According to God, I stood ALONE, in seeking wisdom from Him, in regards to the truth. Others simply used VANITY, in order to overcome the contradictions found in the scriptures. They still refuse to listen to the truth.
Posted by simpleman 3 years ago
simpleman
The Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
Posted by Thorwald 3 years ago
Thorwald
You have to be careful how you interpret John 1:1. Remember, that even Christ states, "And the word which ye hear, is NOT mine, but the Father's which sent me."

Jesus knows His Father's thoughts. He seeks to obey and glorify His Father. BOTH The Lord God Almighty, AND Jesus Christ are THE WORD.

If you note, Isaiah 44:6 DOES NOT include The Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost proceeds from The 'invisible to man' Father. Revelation 1:6, seems to also tell us, that GOD has a FATHER. This is why we must not 'change' God's Word. This Word was 'dictated' to John in Revelation. The rest of the Bible's authors have misinterpreted what God told them. Even Christ sometimes referred to His Father, and sometimes referred to 'THE FATHER'. This error goes all the way back in the Bible. When Isaiah saw the figure on the throne, he feared for his life. He thought that he had seen the 'invisible' Father. He then assumed, that he had actually seen The Lord of Hosts. He was wrong. He had seen The Lord God Almighty,...the same figure that John saw, in Revelation chapter 4.

Many people have both seen God and heard His voice. No man has seen the Father of God, or heard His voice, AT ANY TIME. No man has seen the true shape of The Holy Ghost, which proceeds from the 'invisible' Father, either.

The Christian ministry is in 'blindness' in regards to this topic. THEY HAVE NEVER ASKED GOD FOR THE TRUE UNDERSTANDING, so they remain in darkness. They instead, use vanity to try to get around 1 Timothy 6:16, and John 5:37. They then change the Word, by creating new 'bibles' that God did not anoint them to do.
Posted by simpleman 3 years ago
simpleman
Jesus and the Son are one and the same. Originally, Christ was known as the Word. That he came in the flesh changed His identity in relation to us, but not within the Godhead. He is the express image of the Father. He was the representation of everything God wanted us to know of His love in human form so thatthere would be no room for misinterpreting who He is or what He was communicating in the person of Jesus.
Posted by Thorwald 3 years ago
Thorwald
When I asked the BGEA if Christianity in general, has 'thrown out' The Lord God Almighty, and replaced Him with His 'invisible to man Father, and referenced scriptures found in 1 Timothy 6:16 and John 5:37, which state that there is a 'Father' who has never been seen by man, nor has man EVER heard His voice, they simply responded, that their focus is on evangelism. They refused to 'deal with the problem'. I was directed to someone in their hierarchy much 'lower'. This person simply gave me 'the spiel' of why they believe what they believe, which is the same as the rest of the Christian ministry. Unfortunately, their conclusions are based on their own vanity, and the vanity of others. They refuse to deal with the two scripture verses that I reference (above).

Either there is, or there isn't, an 'invisible to man' FATHER. From my second vision, I now KNOW that there are FOUR 'figures', not three. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, DOES NOT INCLUDE Jesus Christ. Jesus, as Lord of Hosts, is the only begotten Son of THE SON (The Lord God Almighty...the figure on the throne in Revelation chapter 4, the first figure of THE GODHEAD per Isaiah 44:6, and the one who The Lord's Prayer refers to).

What point is there, in bringing others to Christ, and then not glorifying GOD, but instead, glorifying His Father? ALL scriptures direct us to glorify GOD (The Lord God Almighty), who is OUR Father and creator (along with His Son, Jesus Christ).
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