The Instigator
Lucky10279
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Callen13
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

We are not saved by faith alone

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
Callen13
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/22/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,660 times Debate No: 23735
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (12)
Votes (1)

 

Lucky10279

Pro

This presupposes the existence of God, and the accuracy of the bible. And I would like to debate this with a Protestant or non-denominational Christian.

I want to start my argument by pointing out that if we are saved by faith alone, then we don't need to love anyone, but Jesus tell us in the bible to love others.

And 1 Corinthians chapter 13 verse 13 says that love is greater than faith. If we were saved by faith alone than it would logically follow that Faith would be the greatest of all the Cardinal virtues, but the bible says that love is greater.

And if faith alone is the most important thing than why does that phrase appear just once in scripture? and where it does say it it says that we are not saved by faith alone: James chapter 2 verse 24

If we were saved by faith alone than it would logically follow that faith would be God's soul criteria for judging us, but every passage in the New Testament that talks of us being judged, says that we will be judged by our works, our deeds, by what we have done. Such as Matthew 24, John 15, Romans 2, and Revelations 20.

What is the difference between the redeemed and unsaved and the redeemed and saved? Is it something Jesus did? If it is something Jesus did then why didn't he do it for everyone? The bible says that he desires all men to be saved in 1 timothy chapter 2 verse 4. Is it something we did? If it is something we did, then isn't that a work?

The bible says that we have to forgive others in order to have our sins forgiven by God, in Matthew chapter 2 verse 14. Forgiving is a work. Which means we are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and works.
Callen13

Con

I hope for a fun debate(:

 

Hebrews 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.”

 “I want to start my argument by pointing out that if we are saved by faith alone, then we don't need to love anyone, but Jesus tell us in the bible to love others.”

We still need love because love is God. I’ll prove it.

“And 1 Corinthians chapter 13 verse 13 says that love is greater than faith. If we were saved by faith alone than it would logically follow that Faith would be the greatest of all the Cardinal virtues, but the bible says that love is greater.”

1 Corinthians 13:13 “Three things will last forever--faith, hope, and love--and the greatest of these is love.”

My response to this is, it’s not all about you. The bible says that we humans are selfish so I’m not surprised. But Love is greater because love is God. Do not forget that it was God who died and paid for your punishment because of love. God dying for you was the greatest act of love.

1 John 4:8 “Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.”

All you have to do is have faith in God to be saved because having faith in God, also means having faith in Love.

“And if faith alone is the most important thing than why does that phrase appear just once in scripture? and where it does say it it says that we are not saved by faith alone: James chapter 2 verse 24”


The Scripture you are referring to is “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” This is used out of context. Using versus out of context is dangerous and satanic. Lucifer himself used scripture against Christ, the first was misquoted, and the second was used out of context. (Luke 4:9-13)


“If we were saved by faith alone than it would logically follow that faith would be God's soul criteria for judging us, but every passage in the New Testament that talks of us being judged, says that we will be judged by our works, our deeds, by what we have done. Such as Matthew 24, John 15, Romans 2, and Revelations 20.”


Are you a new convert? Yes, we are put on trial. Trial for all the sin and wrong we have done. God is Love, but he is also Just. Someone must pay the price for your evil deeds. But oh wait!!! Someone has! (if you have faith in him of course) Jesus Christ steps up at your trial and exclaims “I have her covered under my blood, she has accepted my payment for her own!”. Then God moves on to the next person because your debt is satisfied. Isn’t that lovely.





“What is the difference between the redeemed and unsaved and the redeemed and saved? Is it something Jesus did? If it is something Jesus did then why didn't he do it for everyone? The bible says that he desires all men to be saved in 1 timothy chapter 2 verse 4. Is it something we did? If it is something we did, then isn't that a work?”



The simplest answer is, Jesus is a gentleman. He will not force you to live at his house with him for all eternity. Salvation is a gift that must be accepted.





“The bible says that we have to forgive others in order to have our sins forgiven by God, in Matthew chapter 2 verse 14. Forgiving is a work. Which means we are not saved by faith alone, but by faith and works.”



No. I believe you are mistaken…

Matthew 2:14 “That night Joseph left for Egypt with the child and Mary, his mother,”

Perhaps you mean


Matthew 6:15 “But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”

 

Lets clarify. This debate is “We are not saved by faith alone”.

Does forgiving men save you? No.

Does having faith save you? Yes.

Can anything else save you? Nope.


Conclusion:

Only faith in Jesus Christ, faith in what he did, faith in who he is, and faith that this doctrine is correct, can save you.

 

Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast."

Debate Round No. 1
Lucky10279

Pro

Hebrews 11 verse 16 does not say faith ALONE. So we need faith to please God. It doesn't say that faith is ALL we need to please Him. I believe that verse 100 percent. But I do not believe that it says what you are trying to make it say.

Yes, God is love, and we do need to love. You make a good point that God is love, so that's why love is greater. Yes, you're right that was the greatest act of love, and I am eternally grateful to Him for doing that for me. But that still doesn't mean that we are saved by faith alone.

I took it out of context? Oh really? Well, read the verses before and after it. They only suport my argument. Here: verses 15 to 26 "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder.
Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead."

That last verse particularly shows that faith without works will not save us. If that passage doesn't mean that faith AND works are necessary for salvation then tell me what it means.

No, I have been a Catholic my whole life. Where in the bible does it say that Jesus will step up and say that?

Right he won't force us to come to heaven if we choose not to. And the way to accept that gift is by grace, through faith and works.

Thanks for correcting me. I do mean 6:15.

Why do you think forgiving each other won't save us? The bible that we have to forgive others to be forgiven. We can't get into heaven unless our sins are forgiven.

Nothing else will save you? Really? Well Jesus doesn't seem to agree: Matthew chapter 19 verses 16 to 19
"And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17. And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18. He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19. Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20. The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21. Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

In conclusion, the bible clearly teaches that faith alone will NOT save us.
Callen13

Con


Oh.. We are talking about Dead faith?


I assumed we were talking about Living faith because the argument was simply stated as "faith".



ridiculousness.



The scriptures are stating that you if you have faith, works will come. But faith is the part that saves because works without faith will not save you.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” -Ephesians 2:8,9 (all quotations will be taken from the KJV)

WORKS are the result of FAITH. It is the faith that saves and only the faith that saves. Works come because of your faith.

God gives grace when you have faith. Faith produces works. Faith is the tree and works are it's fruits.

"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead."

According to scriptures, if a tree does not produce fruit, you can determine it is dead.


Look at it this way, "For as the tree apart from the fruits is dead, so faith apart from works is dead"


Faith is not the result of works.


Only Faith can save.


The bible teaches that we are saved by faith alone, so that nobody can boast. Jesus is the reason for your salvation. Don't think that anything you've done makes you worthy of heaven.

The bible teaches that we are saved by faith alone.






Debate Round No. 2
Lucky10279

Pro

First of all I need to point that you just ignored most of what I said. Are you ignoring it because you do not have a response?

That 's not what it says. It doesn't say that works will come from faith. It says that faith without works is dead. How could faith save us if ti is dead? Did you read the passage I quoted above where it says even the demons believe? Even the believe-but they are in hell.

And back to what you said about love being greater than faith because God is love. The bible wasn't talking about love as in God, he was talking about the virtue of love. There is a difference. So I ask you again, if we are saved by faith alone then why is love greater than faith?

That verse from Ephesians doesn't say faith ALONE. We ARE saved by faith but not faith ALONE, we are saved by faith AND works. And if we are saved by faith alone then why did Jesus tell the rich man to follow the commandments and to give away his possessions when he asked what he must do gain eternal life? (Matthew 19: 16-19) If we are saved by faith alone, then why didn't Jesus tell him to have faith?
Callen13

Con

I didn't ignore any of the arguments that I found relevant to the point I was trying to make. I really hoped you would have seen reason by now. The Bible isn't always straight forward or obvious. It is full of symbolism and you have to have the open mindedness to be able to see the way it all truly connects in the end.


The Demons believe and tremble. Yes.


Saving Faith, the kind of faith we are talking about is faith that results in Salvation.

Only faith in Jesus Christ, faith in what he did, faith in who he is, and faith that this doctrine is correct, can save you.


The demons cant have faith in what Jesus did for them because he didn't die for them.

"The bible wasn't talking about love as in God, he was talking about the virtue of love."


We've already settled that God is Love. I can take you to the scripture but I cannot seem to make you understand. You agreed with me that God is Love. Are you changing your mind in the middle of a debate? I believe God is all forms of Love, since the scripture didn't specify.


The scripture from Ephesians doesn't say there are other ways either.


“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” -Ephesians 2:8,9 (all quotations will be taken from the KJV)


(Matthew 19: 16-19) NO read (Matthew 19: 16-26)


And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

You need to read the whole story. Not just the one thing Jesus said. Once again, out of context. Jesus knew this man could not be saved so he lead him to the point to where Jesus could ask him to give up his riches, in which case, the man turns away. Jesus just wanted to prove a point to his disciples about the greed of rich men.


No work you can do will ever overcome the sin you have done. Only the blood of Jesus.


Works are a result of faith.

Faith that the bible is true.

Faith in Jesus.

Faith that God knows everything.

Faith that what God says to do is better than what you think is what you should do.

Faith that God loves you.


If you have Faith, you want to do works like stop sinning. If you have faith that God loves you with all his heart, you won't want to hurt him by sinning. If you have faith that he died for you, you will be willing to do anything for him out of gratitude for the tremendous gift he has given.


Faith, brings works.


Only Faith can save you though.
Debate Round No. 3
Lucky10279

Pro

You are the one who needs to see reason. No, that verse from Ephesians doesn't but lots of other verses do.

I still agree that God is Love, but there is more than one kind of love. The bible was talking about the VIRTUE of love. It wasn't referring to God as love. So again I ask you, if we are saved by faith alone, then why is love greater than faith?

And where does it say that Jesus was trying to show his disciples the greed of the rich man? And you didn't answer my question before, where does it say that Jesus will step up and say "I have her covered under my blood, she has accepted my payment for her own!" ?

Just having faith will not guarantee that you will do works to do works. And this is Paul speaking, so we know it is someone with faith. Romans 7: 14 to 25 "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15.I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
16.Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good.
17.So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.
18.For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.
19.For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.
20.Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.
21.So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
22.For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self,
23.but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members.
24.Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25.Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."
Callen13

Con

"You are the one who needs to see reason. No, that verse from Ephesians doesn't but lots of other verses do."


You have yet to bring up a verse that does.


"I still agree that God is Love, but there is more than one kind of love. The bible was talking about the VIRTUE of love. It wasn't referring to God as love. So again I ask you, if we are saved by faith alone, then why is love greater than faith?"



I disagree that the love that this scripture is talking about, is not God. If you have evidence for your statement, please show it. I have given my evidence as to why it is in fact talking about God.

"And where does it say that Jesus was trying to show his disciples the greed of the rich man? And you didn't answer my question before, where does it say that Jesus will step up and say "I have her covered under my blood, she has accepted my payment for her own!" ?"


I was trying to make a point. Based on Christian belief, Jesus stands in your place on judgment day. He may or may not say those exact words.

"Just having faith will not guarantee that you will do works to do works. And this is Paul speaking, so we know it is someone with faith. Romans 7: 14 to 25 "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15.I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate."


Paul hates sin because he has faith that God loves him and doesn't want him to sin. He sins anyway because it is Human Nature to sin. Romans 3 explains this. You can never become perfect until you are in Heaven.

"16.Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good.
17.So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me."


"The Sin within him obviously wouldn't have faith because it evil, hence an internal battle within Peter."

"18.For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it."


When the bible speaks of flesh, it means the body. The body of man is corrupt. The Spirit of man can be redeemed by faith. This verse also point to an internal conflict.

"19.For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.
20.Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.
21.So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
22.For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self,"


His Soul is his inmost self.

"23.but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members.
24.Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25.Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." "


We know the disciples have done good works. If your argument is that Paul had faith but did not do good works, please let me know and I can proceed to pour upon you the many scriptures that would prove otherwise.



Debate Round No. 4
Lucky10279

Pro

I am not saying the the apostles didn't do good works. They did. I am saying that just having faith does not guarantee that we will do works.

Where does it say that He will say ANYTHING LIKE THAT? I have brought up plenty of verses that do. No you have not given evidence you have simply said that is what you think. again you didn't answer my question. Where does it say that jesus was trying to show His disciples the greed of the rich man?

Yes he sins anyway, which shows that just having faith will not make us do good works. Sinning is the opposite of good works. Not Peter, Paul. No, the body is not corrupt. The body is good and sacred. Yes, it clearly does point to any internal conflict. And it shows that just having faith does not automatically make us do good works as well.

The evidence that it is talking about the VIRTUE of love, is that it says faith, hope, and love, which are the Cardinal VIRTUES. If it was talking about God as love, then it would not say faith and hope as well.
Callen13

Con

“I am not saying the apostles didn't do good works. They did. I am saying that just having faith does not guarantee that we will do works.”

James 2:18 “But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

What you have said about this is correct. This scripture that we have already used proves this.

“Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

Faith can and should be manifested as works. Works show faith. Notice that he didn’t say, and I will show you my faith with my works. He makes clear his point that faith should bring works.


“Where does it say that He will say ANYTHING LIKE THAT?”

Why do you keep bringing this up??? It really doesn't even have to do with the point of the debate! Your obviously just being extremely close minded. I was just trying to exaggerate the fact that on judgment day you will stand trial and your sins will be overlooked because of what Jesus did. It was a minuscule point. I’m sorry, I assumed you would understand that my statement wasn’t supposed to be taken literally. I was just trying to prove a point.



“I have brought up plenty of verses that do.”

None that I couldn’t counter with reason.

 

 

“ again you didn't answer my question. Where does it say that Jesus was trying to show His disciples the greed of the rich man?”

This is much to theologically advanced for you. You would need this fed to like a baby being fed milk. I apologize that I can only provide the meat of this scripture. These are some sources that may help you find the truth.

http://www.heavensfamily.org...

http://bible.org...

http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture.com...

“Yes he sins anyway, which shows that just having faith will not make us do good works. Sinning is the opposite of good works. Not Peter, Paul. No, the body is not corrupt. The body is good and sacred.”



Nobody ever said that if you have faith you will stop sinning and only do good works. I simply said that true faith will cause good works. Man doesn’t become perfect automatically because of faith. Man is still capable of doing wrong. Faith just increases the likeliness that man will do good.


 

 

 

“The evidence that it is talking about the VIRTUE of love, is that it says faith, hope, and love, which are the Cardinal VIRTUES. If it was talking about God as love, then it would not say faith and hope as well.”

Just because YOU say they are the cardinal VIRTUES means absolutely nothing. The scripture we are referring to doesn’t have the word VIRTUE anywhere in it!

Look and see!

1 Corinthians 13:13 “And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.”

Your argument has no foundation whatsoever. My argument stays the same from before. This verse says love is the greatest because love is God. God created everything and knows everything. So obviously he would be the greatest according to scripture.

Debate Round No. 5
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by lefillegal 4 years ago
lefillegal
What is this work that we shall do to be saved? Jesus answered" to believe(faith) on him(jesus) whom he(god) has sent.
Posted by Lucky10279 5 years ago
Lucky10279
You are entitled to your opinion, so I am not asking you to change your vote, just to not call me a boy.
Posted by Ron-Paul 5 years ago
Ron-Paul
@Luck10279: Ok. Fine. Change the pronouns. Its not going to change the vote.

@Callen13: You're welcome.
Posted by Callen13 5 years ago
Callen13
Much appreciated Ron-Paul!
Posted by Lucky10279 5 years ago
Lucky10279
I am a girl thank you. There is a picture of me up there, Can't you see it?
Posted by Ron-Paul 5 years ago
Ron-Paul
My RFD:

Spelling and Grammar: Con had excellent spelling and grammar, while pro sometimes did not space between points, missed certain verb tenses and thus used the wrong noun, forgot some possessive apostrophies, and his capitalization was a little lacking.

Convincing Arguments: Con had longer arguments for one, but one can not but convincingness on this. Con also had more thought out and longer arguments. He did not use one line to summarize a whole point. Generally, con's arguments were more convincing.

Sources: While the Bible was used by both sides, pro only used it for Rounds 1 and 2, while con used it for all rounds. He has more verses and after his refutations have been made, pro did not back up his defense with Bible verses. On top of this, con was the only one who brought in non-Bible sources to the table.

All and all, this is a win for con. He could have done a better job, but he accurately refuted pro's arguments using both outside sources and the Bible and after the refutations, pro never really defended his arguments and used no sources to defend his arguments.
Posted by Callen13 5 years ago
Callen13
like what? back what you say or don't say anything.
Posted by Lucky10279 5 years ago
Lucky10279
I don't agree. some of the things you said in the last round were ridiculous.
Posted by Callen13 5 years ago
Callen13
Yeah, I agree.
Posted by stubs 5 years ago
stubs
Wish I had taken this debate. I think the bible is pretty clear we are saved by faith alone.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Ron-Paul 5 years ago
Ron-Paul
Lucky10279Callen13Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments.