The Instigator
Dyankovich
Con (against)
Losing
15 Points
The Contender
Yraelz
Pro (for)
Winning
29 Points

We cannot do slow troop withdrawals without hurting the soldiers already fighting in Iraq and Afghan

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/22/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,603 times Debate No: 3752
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (12)
Votes (11)

 

Dyankovich

Con

Dyankovich forfeited this round.
Yraelz

Pro

First off I'm going to notice that you're debating the wrong side of the resolution, so I'm actually just going to entirely ignore the resolution and simply discuss the points which you offered in your contention.

First off you state that a slow removal will hurt the troops, however I must submit a counter proposal that the troops are already being hurt. In fact, the longer we stay in Iraq the more damage will be done to our force. Not just in a monetary sense that is slowly decreasing our economic prowess but also in a mortality sense. Mortality in our soldiers and in the Iraqi people.

Furthermore I must submit to you that there is no solution to this conflict from out end of the spectrum. Not only is mandating democracy on a people entirely hypocritical in the sense that you are advocating they choose how to run their government through popular vote by mandating that they must do this, but also this is an Iraqi problem that needs to be solved by the Iraqi people.

The longer we stay there, the longer we lend, the longer we help them, the more that they will become dependent on us for support. We are functioning as a prosthetic limb right which the Iraqi people are using to rebuild their life around. The fact is, we have to leave at some point, and when that happens we rip the prosthetic limb out from under them. At which point they are going to have to find their own solution, it is better we do this sooner than later.

Your turn.
Debate Round No. 1
Dyankovich

Con

Dyankovich forfeited this round.
Yraelz

Pro

My opponent seems to be under the vague impression that the word "first" can only occur once. This is rather untrue and is an example of the the common sense fallacy.

For instance if I were to outline a book each chapter would have many subpoints and each subpoint might have a couple sub-subpoints. Thereby there would be a FIRST subpoint for chapter 1, but at the same time there would also be a FIRST subpoint for chaper 2, and probably a FIRST sub-subpoint for chapter 2 subpoint B.

Thus having the term first used in multitudes is fine as long as each first is not intended to describe the same object.

Looking specifically to our current debate. I begin by rejecting the resolution so we may have an honest debate and then go on to state my reasoning behind my case.

Thus I have a FIRST reason to reject the resolution combined with a FIRST argument on my case.

Now let to examine to my opponent actual case in this debate. As I stated he is arguing the wrong side of the resolution but we will be ignoring that, because it doesn't matter in this round.

My opponent spends his last round arguing against completely pulling out of Iraq but inadvertently, and comically, actually advocates against his own case.

He offers 6 scenarios, the first four were:

1. Vietnam
2. Afghanistan
3. Haiti
4. Cuba

These scenarios are all very compelling reasons not to flat out pull out of Iraq. My opponent has without a doubt convinced me of this.

The first three were:

1. Germany
2. Korea
3. Japan

And these of course are compelling reasons to stay in Iraq. However it seems to me that we invaded Germany, Korea, and Japan with rather sizable forces. It also seems to me that we do not currently have as many troops in these three countries as we did at the end of WWII and the Korean war respectively. Thus it stands to reason that at some point we must have withdrawn some of the troops that were originally stationed in those countries. However we have not fully withdrawn. Thus all three of the above countries have experienced slow troop withdrawals, and probably will continue to do so until they are completely stabilized without a doubt.

Thus I can only advocate the counter advocacy of slowly stabilizing Iraq while slowly withdrawing troops as it becomes more stabilized. The three examples above have convinced me.
Debate Round No. 2
Dyankovich

Con

Dyankovich forfeited this round.
Yraelz

Pro

Doo dee doo. I think I'm going to be covering each statement my opponent has offered. Enjoy. =)

We start of course with the "first" argument. I stated rather clearly in my last round that multiple firsts can be used providing each first describes a different object. Perhaps it would be best if I elaborated. By different objects I would be describing different categories. For instance, I may receive for my birthday a goldfish and then a cat. The goldfish would be my first pet, and my first fish. The cat would be my second pet but would be my first cat. Thus whilst in the same category (pets) I cannot have multiple firsts. However if we are talking about different categories or objects I can have as many firsts as categories allow. The same is true of our current debate. My first argument on this debate was a quick resolutional analysis. The second argument was a refutation of my opponents case. However if we look at this from another perspective my FIRST argument under resolutional analysis was my first paragraph in round 1. My FIRST argument directly refuting my opponents case was the second paragraph. Thus it is more than possible, for me to have two firsts in the same debate, they just have to be in two different categories, which they are.

==============================
Next we have the matter of the common sense fallacy. This fallacy actually doesn't exist at all, I interjected it for 2 reasons.

1. So that a select few debaters would be amused over a made up fallacy.
2. So that I could point out my opponents logical flaw without actually directly attacking him. It should still be noted that while I am dropping the title, "common sense fallacy", my opponents line of reasoning remains fallacious.

My opponent of course decides to turn this on me and begins a lengthy ad hominem attack against me. Thus I can only advocate 2 scenarios.

A. We drop the ad hominem attacks and consider the points moot. I will be supporting this with 1. The fact that my opponent did spell the word grammar wrong whilst pointing out that I need to use proper grammar and 2. The fact that my opponent forgot to capitalize the word English while telling me not to ruin the English language.

B. The ad hominem attacks should be turned against my opponent. This will be based on the idea that I intentionally did a multitude of incorrect math:

"He offers 6 scenarios, the first four were:"
"The first three were:"
3 + 4 =! 6

Math that I must point out a 2nd grader could understand. Which, of course, my opponent did not notice. Thereby my opponents ad hominem attacks on grammar should be turned against him on the merit of his lack of simple mathematics.

C. My opponent should be voted against for offering each of his ad hominem attacks. Let us review them:

1. "I can tell you are over-reaching your personal vocabulary by the way you use the english language; "
2. "you are the guy who tries to advocate his intelligence by using words outside his vocabulary."
3. "My opponent in this entire debate has put forth one ALMOST legible argument"
4. "he has incoherently rambled on against my ideas without putting forth any on his own... "
5. "Please don't do this to the english language."

Voting against my opponent helps to set a precedent in two ways. For starters it discourages my opponent from using ad hominem attacks against other debate users if he knows that he will be voted against for it. Secondly it discourages other debaters who see this debate from using ad hominem attacks due to the fact that they will quickly realize how little such attacks actually further their debate.

This community was made, as my opponent states, for intelligent debate. Intelligent debate coincidentally does not include ad hominem attacks to further ones point, if this is what my opponent enjoys doing I must kindly ask that he join an angry blog instead.

=====================
Finally we have my opponent's case. In his 2nd round he offered 7 empirical examples from past countries. In four of these examples he showed how flat out pulling out of a country that we invaded would be detrimental. In the other three examples he showed how slow troop withdrawals from the countries we invaded was very successful.

I agree with my opponent and must bring an argument back from my last round. I stated,

"Thus I can only advocate the counter advocacy of slowly stabilizing Iraq while slowly withdrawing troops as it becomes more stabilized."

My opponent of course did not enjoy this statement as he found it rather redundant. However there was a rather definite reason for it's redundancy. Specifically if we examine the second part of this statement it states that we will be slowly withdrawing troops as Iraq becomes more stabilized. In other words, as stabilization increases troop withdrawal proportionally increases. As we are slowly stabilizing Iraq at this point in time it is possible for us to slowly begin withdrawing troops, even if this means only a few troops per day.

Which brings me to the end of my opponents point in which he states that slow troops withdrawals will only hurt the troops that will remain. Under my plan this is untrue. I advocate that we withdraw troops as stability increases. The more stable the country the less troops are needed. A similar situation would be a crime ridden town. The lower the crime that exists in the town the lower the need for a police force exists.
Debate Round No. 3
Dyankovich

Con

Dyankovich forfeited this round.
Yraelz

Pro

Alright, well I am just going to be asking for an extension of all of my point. Thanks for the debate, thanks for judging.
Debate Round No. 4
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Yraelz 9 years ago
Yraelz
Hmmmm =) =) =) Thank you for the compliment.
Posted by Danielle 9 years ago
Danielle
I agree entirely with Rob1Billion.

Dyankovich, I think you're a really smart guy, but that logic about the President and serving really has no merit. Case in point: GWB. Besides, even if a President had served, it would have been a different war, different time, different outside factors, etc etc etc. Remember that politics, objectives and people change. I don't think that serving in the military should really be a factor in terms of choosing the next President. Remember the military is only one aspect of politics/government. While one person may have experience in one field, someone else might have more knowledge in another. The military is not the be-all end-all, and I really hope you reconsider changing your mind (on the basis of military involvement).

That said, I'm kind of disappointed with the outcome of this debate. I think both debaters are great, but to scrutinize over simple mathematics and grammar (I have yet to see one debater on this site with perfect grammar - even Dyankovich made a few errors) was really unnecessary. I was interested in the arguments, and I think both sides made some really good points. I wish R4 had been adequately debated. I agree with Logical though - this was a clear 5 rounder (and I've never had that opinion before haha).

Kudos to Yraelz for not nailing Con on his accidental position against the resolution though. Also, I think it says a lot about someone when they acknowledge a changed perspective via debate as Yraelz did with Con's 3 examples. He [Yraelz] truly is a gentleman. I voted Pro, but hopefully Dyankovich can post this debate some other time - maybe even against Yraelz - cuz I'd definitely be interested in reading it.
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
This debate still had a ways to go. Should've been a five rounder. Thus, I take R4 as a concession and vote PRO.
Posted by Rob1Billion 9 years ago
Rob1Billion
I'm getting sick of people only giving respect to anyone who served in the military. Serving in the military does not make or break your ability to lead or serve in office. Civilians must retain most of the power over this country, because if we only listen to the military then we will become a MILITARY STATE. People always automatically defer to what the troops have to say about the war and that is utterly wrong; there is a fundamental need for the military's opinions to be checked and dominated by the civilian population. I don't give a rat's behind if someone who served in Iraq supports the war or not; their opinions don't carry any more weight than mine. They have seen first hand what is going on, granted, but they have also been severely conditioned by thier superiors to follow the leader blindly and they can't afford to have an opinion of their own. If one of the candidates became a general in the armed forces that could help their candidacy but it does not automatically disqualify them if they haven't entered the military. The fact that our president has the ability to postpone the war, which in turn requires a military president in the future, which in turn gives him the authority to postpone the war, which in turn requires another military president.... this is complete and utter BULLSH*& and the civilian part of our government really should start standing up to this garbage and put the military back in its place - as a subordinate and obedient sector WITHOUT AN OPINION.
Posted by goldspurs 9 years ago
goldspurs
Its fine. I have just seen too many people trying to pose as military on the net before. I am Army myself, currently up at Fort Drum.
Posted by goldspurs 9 years ago
goldspurs
Dyankovich,

Personal question, are you in the Navy or the Army? On your profile you say Navy and in this debate you say Army. Makes me doubt your credibility.
Posted by Geekis_Khan 9 years ago
Geekis_Khan
Yeah. Be careful about what side you assign yourself when setting up the debate. I hadn't noticed that.
Posted by SportsGuru 9 years ago
SportsGuru
@ Dyankovich

Although I won't take this debate, I would watch out for someone who argues that you conceded in your first paragraph because you supported the resolution while being Con.
Posted by Geekis_Khan 9 years ago
Geekis_Khan
Here's why I'm having trouble: you're not actually debating what options we should pursue in Iraq, you're arguing an inevitable effect of certain options.

However, if you want to argue it on a cost-benefit analysis, meaning that if you want to argue that it will cause more harm to the soldiers than it will cause good for them, I'd be willing to accept.

Saying that it just causes harm seems abusive.
Posted by Geekis_Khan 9 years ago
Geekis_Khan
I want to accept this, but I'm trying to think of a stronger case than what I have in my head. Someone will probably get here before me. Either way, this has my interest.
11 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Crust89 9 years ago
Crust89
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Vote Placed by Logical-Master 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by Yraelz 9 years ago
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