The Instigator
DucoNihilum
Pro (for)
Winning
35 Points
The Contender
soontobelawyer
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points

Welfare and other public entitlement programs should be abolished in the US.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/6/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,349 times Debate No: 1433
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (17)
Votes (14)

 

DucoNihilum

Pro

I would again like to welcome my opponent and hope he takes up this debate.

I will make my opening argument short and sweet again, as I am new to this website.

I hold the view that all welfare should be abolished, as well as entitlement programs. The minimum wage should no longer exist, and we should not cater to the poor as if they were our children. Any attempts at helping the poor are good in heart, but generally create unfair advantages and harm the poor more than they help the poor.
soontobelawyer

Con

Welfare should stay because what if a mother caint feed her children she caint look them in the eyes and say no food today children we need welfare not because were using the government but because mothers have to fee there children
Debate Round No. 1
DucoNihilum

Pro

You bring up the point of hunger and starvation. To dive into this issue we must go back to pre industrial France. Before Capitalism, before industrialization. During this time, hunger was a real problem. It was one of the highest, if not the highest cause of death- a great deal of children did not even reach adulthood. Then, slowly, over the years- a change swept over Europe- the industrial revolution. The Industrial Revolution brought prosperity to European countries that accepted it though Capitalism. This raised the standards of living of the average person up drastically. Only later did people decide that what they had was just not quite enough, and decide to move on toward more socialistic policies. Industrialization and capitalism is what brings people out of starvation and hunger, not socialism. Compare Pre-Industrialized countries with developed countries. In the United States, hardly anybody dies of starvation. In parts of Africa, starvation is the leading cause of death. Hunger is not heard of in modern capitalistic countries. Look at the USSR- a socialist country which, while providing welfare for all of their citizens failed to do so terribly and caused the deaths of millions of people- from starvation.

You say we need welfare programs as if welfare programs are the only ways of obtaining food. How are people supposed to make money anyways? Well- most people make their money by contributing to the economy, becoming laborers. There are jobs out there- not ideal jobs, but jobs so long as you wish to take them. If hunger were really an issue, you would have strong incentive to get a job- especially if you had a child.

Even the 'poor' in the US are comparably rich. Poor people in the US have great luxuries not shared by peoples separated by generations of time or by oceans. The poor in the US today have a home or apartment, they have air conditioning, they have refrigerators, microwaves, color television sets and VCR's. The poor are not building mud huts, hoping someday for food- food is an afterthought, on welfare or not.

Do the current welfare programs even work? Current welfare programs always give a person an incentive to stay where they are. It's not that they are lazy, so much as that they are stuck. If you could get free money from the government, or the same amount (or less) money from going out to work what would you do? You might choose to get the job, but the incentive is to stay in the system. Once you are in the system- it is hard to get out. Children of welfare recipients tend to stay in the system, as it is all they have learned. Public housing systems generally suffer from flaws. Why? Because they do not own them. You have less incentive to take care of things that are yours than things that are not yours. Crime is often found in the public housing projects more so than in communities where ownership is the rule of law.

I need to also quickly address the issue of minimum wage. Minimum wage is a idea brought out by people who claim to be in support of the poor. After all, this money sounds great! In reality, it hurts the poor. Where does this money come from, this extra money? Out of the pockets of the businesses? Well, often small businesses can not afford such overhead. Large businesses, who lobby for minimum wage increases such as WalMart like it because it helps eliminate their competition. When you establish minimum wage laws, you force employers to either hire less employees- as the employees are being over paid, you help inflate the economy, as prices will be passed along to consumers, or you get the poor fired- "I can't afford you for 9 dollars an hour, sorry."

You try to bring up the issue of starvation in proof of the need of public welfare programs, but what about private welfare programs? If we were to support a capitalist policy, cut taxes by incredible amounts people would have more money to spend. Money to spend on what they choose, including charities. While everybody might not donate to charities, the charities that will not only come up but are already here are more than enough to deal with the few cases of actual need.

To close, I will readdress an issue you brought up in your argument. If a situation were to occur when a woman could not even feed her child, who's fault would that be? Clearly it would not be the child's responsibility- he is a child. But then who's responsibility is it to feed children? Societies? Is it my responsibility to feed that child though tax money? No- it is the mothers responsibility to feed her children. If she is so desperately poor to the point where she can not even feed her own children she should have had second thoughts by having children. People should have the absolute right to have children, but with rights come responsibilities. If she shamelessly kills her own child by her own neglect, her own inability to find a job, and inability to find private welfare then it his her fault.
soontobelawyer

Con

its not only hunger if we are spending are welfare on food how will we pay the bills and if we caint will be put out on the streets i dont agree with you that it should be gone if you can give me one reason why welfare should be abbolished maybe id agree
Debate Round No. 2
DucoNihilum

Pro

Again you say "how can we" as if the lives of all Americans are dependent on welfare. All Americans are not dependent on welfare- only a few are. You also act as if welfare is the only option. The better option would be getting a job. Getting a job will easily pay the few bills a poor person should have.

You asked me to give you "One" reason why welfare should be abolished. I have already given you many, I spent a while giving you a full fledged argument. Although it centered upon your central argument, the argument about food- I included many reasons, many more than one in fact.

I would make a longer post, but you don't give me much to work with. I work for a while on my responses and you reply with one run on sentence, apparently not giving me the respect to acknowledge my argument.

While some of you might not exactly agree with my opinion here in this debate, I trust members of this website will be able to look at both of our arguments objectively and decide who actually won this debate. The person here who took the effort to attempt to make a logical argument, or the one who relied entirely on emotion.
soontobelawyer

Con

soontobelawyer forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mrmatt505 9 years ago
mrmatt505
I err con, but because of the lack of analysis and the forfeit, I vote pro!
Posted by griffinisright 9 years ago
griffinisright
Way to go, DucoNihilum! Good debate. I agree. If soontobelawy er wants to win a debate she needs to give more information and she needs to make sure to not miss a turn!
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
Pro and I are revisiting the subject, so be sure to catch it. I promise, the debate will be a lot better than this one.
Posted by SocialistRI82 9 years ago
SocialistRI82
Soontobelawyer you did nothing to attempt to win this argument. Pro's arguments were run of the mill and flawed as well. This was a spitting contest and pro had more saliva.
Posted by mmadderom 9 years ago
mmadderom
While entitlement programs have gone WAY overboard and lack of real oversight has led to massive fraud there is no way a compassionate community can just turn it's back on people in need, either.
Posted by DucoNihilum 9 years ago
DucoNihilum
I'll be looking forward to it.
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
This is one of the first debates I have read that I'm not going to vote on. Con didn't put up any kind of fight, but pro's arguments were totally lacking in research and resembled what one might say if they were talking out of their nether regions. Thus, I can't bring myself to vote for either side. You can be looking for my challenge, duconihilum
Posted by DucoNihilum 9 years ago
DucoNihilum
Why debate in comments? It's not worth anything.

If you want to debate me so bad to put it in the comments, challenge me.
Posted by audraxheartsxyou 9 years ago
audraxheartsxyou
cuz i was trying to debate...

IF YOU WANT to debate so bad....you do the challenging.
Posted by DucoNihilum 9 years ago
DucoNihilum
I am not going to debate you in the comments- if you want to debate me you can challenge me.
14 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by fire_wings 1 year ago
fire_wings
DucoNihilumsoontobelawyerTied
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Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by U.n 1 year ago
U.n
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Reasons for voting decision: forfeiture
Vote Placed by griffinisright 9 years ago
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Vote Placed by mrmatt505 9 years ago
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