The Instigator
Usef
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
lannan13
Pro (for)
Winning
4 Points

Were the Ancient Egypt's Black?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
lannan13
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/16/2014 Category: Education
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,481 times Debate No: 59038
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (4)

 

Usef

Con

The Ancient Egyptians were not black. The closest relatives to the Ancient Egyptians are the People living in Egypt today.

Start with accepting your argument, and stating your position.
lannan13

Pro

Contention 1: Blacks Defined

According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary Black is defined as: "of or relating to a race of people who have dark skin and who come originally from Africa" (http://www.merriam-webster.com...)

Contention 2: Egypt's location

Egypt is in Africa.

locator map of Egypt

Contention 3: What it means

We have come to the conclusion that since the term 'blacks' means that you have come from Africa and Egypt is in Africa then that means Egyptians (even ancient ones) were black.
Debate Round No. 1
Usef

Con

Thank you for taking up this debate.

Let me make myself clear. When I say “black” I am referring to the classification of people who “share certain morphological and skeletal traits that are frequent among most populations in Sub-Saharan Africa.”

I should have made myself clearer.

You Define Black "of or relating to a race of people who have dark skin and who come originally from Africa"

According to modern archeology, the first humans originated from Africa, and many humans are dark skinned. So, with the definition of “Black”, one could derive that the Ancient Egyptians were and are indeed black today. I disagree. According to today’s racial distinction, Egyptians are considered Caucasian. That doesn’t mean that they are or were white. It means that they are under a broad classification that includes light and dark skinned people with common features. Whether I agree or disagree with that classification is beside the point.

Egypt’s location has nothing to do with whether the Ancient Egyptian’s were black or not. Africa has always been diverse ethnically from the Berbers to the so-called Caucasians in the Horn of Africa. For example, even during Ancient Egyptian times, the Libyans to the West of Egyptians were not considered black by today’s standards.

[URL=http://s10.photobucket.com...][IMG]http://i10.photobucket.com...[/IMG][/URL]

In the picture/link above, you will see the four races of the world; a Libyan, Nubian, Asiatic and an Egyptian. This is an artistic rendering based on a mural from the tomb of Seti I. This shows a distinction between Ancient Egyptians and their Black African Neighbors.

The Ancient and Modern Egyptians do consider themselves “black” Africans.

lannan13

Pro

Contention 1: Caucasian

According to Dictionary.com Caucasian is defined as: of or related to the non-Indo-European, non-Turkic languages ofthe Caucasus region. (http://dictionary.reference.com...) Now were in the world is this region you may ask?


Now my opponent said himself that Egyptians were from Africa. Thus meaning they can't be Caucasian since they did not come from the Caucasus region.

Contention 2: Body and blood evidence

At the end of the 19th century German Archeologist Karl Richard Lepsius had analysed the bones of the ancient Egyptians and found the fallowing, "ideal Egyptian” as “short-armed and of Negroid or Negrito physical type.” They have also found that the current Egyptian blood type is the same of Group B, of the western Africa. (http://atlantablackstar.com...)

Contention 3: Egyptians saw themselves as blacks.

egyptian-pictures


Banqueting Scene, Thebes, tomb of Nebamum & Ipuky, 1400 BC


Contention 4: Evidence from the Bible.


"9:18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan. 9:19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread." (Genesis 9:18-19 KJV)

According to Biblical tradition Ham was the father of the black race. The Anceint Jewish and Arab world all classify Ancient Egypt as the black country. (http://www.keyway.ca...)
Debate Round No. 2
Usef

Con

You are arguing that the Ancient Egyptians and the Modern Egyptians were and still are Black today.

I am arguing that Egyptians were never black and are not considered black today.

Rebuttal 1: Caucasian and The Caucasus

My opponent is confusing two words together.

“Caucasian” is a race, and “The Caucasus” is a geographical location! Those are two different words with two different meanings.

According to Blumenbach, De generis humani varietate nativa (3rd ed. 1795)

“The name "Caucasian" derived from the Southern Caucasus region (or what is now the countries of Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia), because he considered the people of this region to be the archetype for the grouping.”

The word Caucasian and Caucasus are linked through linguistic history. Caucasian is a word to categorize a people that share features, and does not refer to where they came from.

According to book by Coon, Carleton Stevens (1939). The Races of Europe. On page 400–401.

“Caucasian race is the general physical type of some or all of the populations of Europe, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, Western Asia, Central Asia and South Asia.”

It seems my opponent missed the first part of their definition. According to my opponent’s source: http://dictionary.reference.com...

Caucasian:

“Anthropology. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of one of the traditional racial divisions of humankind, marked by fair to dark skin, straight to tightly curled hair, and light to very dark eyes, and originally inhabiting Europe, parts of North Africa, western Asia, and India: no longer in technical use.”

Notice how I bolded North Africa. Egypt is in North Africa, so according to my opponents source, Egyptians are considered Caucasian.

Rebuttal 2: AtlantaBlackStar.com

The website

http://atlantablackstar.com... is not a reliable source. It is not an Academic Journal or scholarly source. This looks more a like blog than anything.

After reviewing their page, it is clear that their use of art is subjective and selective, and a few of their photos are actually darkened to suit the narrative. The picture that you posted of the female, who is the actual color black, represents earth or soil; that is why she is drawn with the color black. No human is actually the color black. Black is a term to racially classify a group of people.

If I knew how to post pictures, I would show you many photos that contradict the ones on http://atlantablackstar.com....

For now, here are links to two photos:

Those are the races that Ancient Egyptians were in contact with. See how they differentiate Black Nubians from themselves.


<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Egyptian_races.jpg" width="300px" height="300px" />

<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/From_Giovanni_Battista_Belzoni-_Egyptian_race_portrayed_in_the_Book_of_Gates.jpg" width="300px" height="300px" />

Just because certain cultures in West wear jewelry similar to the Ancient Egyptians, does not mean that were related to them. The Ancient Egyptian civilization is the longest lasting one known to history. In different points in history, the Asiatics, Nubians, Libyans, Greeks, Romans, and Persians dressed like the Ancient Egyptians too.

Rebuttal 3: The Bible

Although I respect the Bible, I don’t think it is a good source for this debate. The Bible has been translated a number of times.


Black was just another name for people that were darker than Europeans. Anyone with darker skin could have been black.

According to history, the Bible (Old Testament) was first in Hebrew, and then translated to Greek. The Greeks are the ones who viewed any dark skinned non-Greek as Black. It was later translated into Latin before English.

Therefore, the Bible’s description of Black is not all that accurate.

lannan13

Pro

I'm going to be gone tomorrow so I'll please ask my opponent to try and post his arguments as soon as possible so I don't have to forfeit. If it is impossible for him to do so and I do forfeit my finial round I ask that the voters give Con the conduct point then judge the rest of the debate as it is.

Contention 1: Caucasian and the Caucasus

My opponent here is incorrect. He has accepted that Whites are Caucasian, but that is incorrect. There are other white races out their such as the Ayrians. My opponent is also incorrect as the Caucasians never migrated to Africa. (see map for reference)

As you can see from the map that I had provided you the Caucasians never even made it to the Sinai Peninsula. The Caucasians migrated to Iran, Iraq, India, Afghanistan, then moved north to Russia and then moved west to Europe and the Balkan States. (http://www.biblemysteries.com...) The only reason that there was Jewry spread around is that Egypt has been conquered several times and there race has been intermixed. I'll prove in the next contention that Egyptians are black.

Contention 2: Body and Blood evidence

My opponent claims that my source is not scholarly, but at the end of my source it provides several sources of it's own. Don't believe me? Let me post some of those sources. (http://dnatribes.com...) (http://www.melanet.com...) One is a DNA testing website and the other so happens to be a scholarly source. My opponent needs to bring up viable evidence to refute this point and yet hasn't, while I have brought up scientific and scholarly sources to back my arguments. Do not let this slide as this is a huge part in this debate as their own DNA proves that they are black.

Contention 3: They see themselves as Black

My opponent is stating that the photos I offered up were altered? This makes no sense. These are the own Egyptians' own hieroglyphics. This is incorrect as mine are from scholarly sources while my opponent's are from Wikipeadia. But don't believe me. I can offer more.



Contention 4: Biblical Evidence

My opponent is trying to disguard the Bible here. Though one might not think of it as a valid source. It was indeed written long before we had much of this evidence. If what my opponent said was true then the Greeks would have depicted Jesus and the Israelites as blacks. Please extend across my arguments.

PS
To post pictures to a debate, right click the image, go to copy image, go to the debate, and then right click and press paste.
Debate Round No. 3
Usef

Con

Usef forfeited this round.
lannan13

Pro

All points extended. Please vote Pro.
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Usef 3 years ago
Usef
How do you post pictures in debate anyone!?
Posted by Usef 3 years ago
Usef
@ShadowKingStudios thanks for the advice, but I would have phrased your advice/opinion differently.
Posted by ShadowKingStudios 3 years ago
ShadowKingStudios
I doubt Con gets a serious non-troll intelligent opponent because has not stated which race he claims the Egyptians are. Accepting this is flying in blind of the loaded gun your opponent has waiting for you. State your position.
Posted by pivot 3 years ago
pivot
Very difficult to understand where this debate would lead.?. Are you trying to show that the Egyptian civilization has an unbroken history. Sort of like the Roman Catholic Church tries to show that its history starts with Peter and remains unbroken to this very day. (As though this gives that Church a special kind of authority.)
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Preston 3 years ago
Preston
Useflannan13Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: ff
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 3 years ago
9spaceking
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Vote Placed by Domr 3 years ago
Domr
Useflannan13Tied
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Vote Placed by NiamC 3 years ago
NiamC
Useflannan13Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF. I will extend my RFD later today