The Instigator
Brenavia
Pro (for)
Losing
4 Points
The Contender
socialpinko
Con (against)
Winning
22 Points

Westboro Baptist Church is wrong in protesting at soldier's funerals

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/8/2011 Category: Politics
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 7,816 times Debate No: 15239
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
Votes (5)

 

Brenavia

Pro

Please be reasonable and fair with your arguments. Best of luck.

Definitions:
Westboro Baptist Church: The Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) is an independent Baptist church known for its extreme stance against homosexuality[1] and its protest activities, which include picketing funerals and desecrating the American flag.[2] The church is widely described as a hate group[3] and is monitored as such by the Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center. It is headed by Fred Phelps and consists mostly of members of his large family;[4] in 2007, it had 71 members.[5] The church is headquartered in a residential neighborhood on the west side of Topeka about three miles west of the Kansas State Capitol at 3701 West 12th Street, Topeka, Kansas, United States. Its first public service was held on the afternoon of Sunday, November 27, 1955.[6]

The church has been actively involved in the anti-gay movement since at least 1991 when it sought a crackdown on homosexual activity at Gage Park about a mile northwest of the church.[7] In addition to anti-gay protests at military funerals, the organization pickets other celebrity funerals that are likely to get it media attention.[8]

The WBC is not affiliated with any known Baptist conventions or associations. The church describes itself as following Primitive Baptist and Calvinist principles,[9] though mainstream Primitive Baptists reject the WBC and Phelps.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org...

In essence, the Westboro Baptist Church is wrong in pickiting outside of the funerals of fallen soldiers. Though they believe themselves to be right, and although homosexuality is generally accepted as wrong, this is outrageous. No God of mine, nor the rest of America for that matter, would allow someone to die for another's sins. Only one figure in history was required to do this, and that was Jesus. Westboro Baptist Church should immediatly stop their picketing and give their apologies to the families of our fallen warriors.

Vote Pro.
socialpinko

Con

"Though they believe themselves to be right, and although homosexuality is generally accepted as wrong, this is outrageous."
First, please show how even if most people don't agree with homosexuality that makes it wrong. Second, these people have the same right of free speech as every one else. To take their rights away just because you disagree with them is simply fascism.
"No God of mine, nor the rest of America for that matter, would allow someone to die for another's sins. Only one figure in history was required to do this, and that was Jesus."
I thought your god supposedly did let someone die for another's sins. And there is actually no historical evidence thatt Jesus died for our sins, rose from the dead, or ever existed.
"Westboro Baptist Church should immediatly stop their picketing and give their apologies to the families of our fallen warriors."
I agree with you here. They should stop. But it is still there right to picket and protest.
Debate Round No. 1
Brenavia

Pro

First off, thank you for accepting my debate.

^^^First, please show how even if most people don't agree with homosexuality that makes it wrong.
--- Forty-eight percent said they believed homosexual relations were morally wrong and 48 percent also said they believed homosexual relations were morally acceptable. This last 2 percent not metioned have no opinion on the matter. The percent of those against it have stronger beliefs than those agreeing with it. Also, a large portion of religions are against homosexuality. America is said to be a nation based on religion, and this proves my point.

^^^ Second, these people have the same right of free speech as every one else. To take their rights away just because you disagree with them is simply fascism.
--- Im not arguing that they dont have free speech. Im arguing that though they are allowed to, they shouldnt want to. By prostesting outside of these funerals, they are hurting the families of the fallen soldiers.

^^^I thought your god supposedly did let someone die for another's sins. And there is actually no historical evidence that Jesus died for our sins, rose from the dead, or ever existed.
--- My God did let someone die for another's sins: Jesus. After that, no other blood was needed for the forgiveness of sins. Also, there is historical evidence of Jesus and what he did: The Bible. Though you may deny the validity of The Bible, since America is a country based on faith, and since 76% of Americans claim to be Christians, you must recognize that the WBC is wrong in their beliefs, and perhaps not even a legitamate sect of Christianty.

^^^I agree with you here. They should stop. But it is still there right to picket and protest.
--- Good, you agree with me. But that is not what this debate is about. Though they have the right to protest, they shouldnt want to on moral grounds.

Thus, Westboro Baptist Church is wrong in protesting soldier's funerals. They shouldnt because they claim to be Christians, and shouldnt want to protest the way they are doing. They are making the bad decision, and is wrong in protesting soldier's funerals.

Vote Pro.
socialpinko

Con

"Forty-eight percent said they believed homosexual relations were morally wrong and 48 percent also said they believed homosexual relations were morally acceptable. This last 2 percent not metioned(sic) have no opinion on the matter. The percent of those against it have stronger beliefs than those agreeing with it. Also, a large portion of religions are against homosexuality. America is said to be a nation based on religion, and this proves my point."

I asked for you to show why even if most people do not agree with homosexuality how does that make it wrong. And you wrote that it is half and half, split down the middle. You also did not provide a source so we may discard that part of your argument. You wrote that most religions are against homosexuality. First, you did not show how that actually makes homosexuality wrong. You also did not show why any of these religions were historically or morally valid. If I made up a religion that was against homosexuality does that make homosexuality wrong? You wrote that America is a nation based on religion but you again did not provide a source or citation. I however will provide a source which proves that America is based on secular beliefs.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
http://www.usconstitution.net...

This is from the first amendment of the constitution. If the founding fathers were so bent on establishing America as a nation based on faith, why did they specifically make it so that congress respects or establishes NO religion. You may practice any ridiculous religion you like but the government will not have any say in the matter. This does not prove your point.

"Im(sic) not arguing that they dont(sic) have free speech. Im(sic) arguing that though they are allowed to, they shouldnt(sic) want to. By prostesting(sic) outside of these funerals, they are hurting the families of the fallen soldiers."

If that is what you are arguing you have certainly not shown why their protesting is morally reprehensible. You are basing it all on your religion which you have proven to be valid.

"My God did let someone die for another's(sic) sins: Jesus. After that, no other blood was needed for the forgiveness of sins. Also, there is historical evidence of Jesus and what he did: The Bible."

The Bible is a book written by numerous authors years after the alleged death of Jesus. We really cannot trust anything written in the Bible. It doesn't exactly have a winning record. What with it's story of seven day creation, great flood, and talking snakes which we can now prove never happened.

"Though you may deny the validity of The Bible, since America is a country based on faith, and since 76% of Americans claim to be Christians, you must recognize that the WBC is wrong in their beliefs, and perhaps not even a legitamate(sic) sect of Christianty(sic)."

America, as I have already shown, is not a country based on faith. Read the first amendment. And show why because a group has a minority opinion that makes them wrong? And who cares if they are a real sect of Christianity or not. That does not make them wrong.

"Though they have the right to protest, they shouldnt(sic) want to on moral grounds."

Show on what moral grounds the WBC need to stop and if those reasons are religious show why your religion is the true one.

VOTE CON
Debate Round No. 2
Brenavia

Pro

Thank you for a timely response.
^^^ "I asked for you to show why even if most people do not agree with homosexuality how does that make it wrong. And you wrote that it is half and half, split down the middle. You also did not provide a source so we may discard that part of your argument. You wrote that most religions are against homosexuality. First, you did not show how that actually makes homosexuality wrong. You also did not show why any of these religions were historically or morally valid. If I made up a religion that was against homosexuality does that make homosexuality wrong? You wrote that America is a nation based on religion but you again did not provide a source or citation. I however will provide a source which proves that America is based on secular beliefs.'

--- If homosexuality is not agreed with by a mojority of people, then socially it is not acceptable. Also, in relation to my source, Im sorry I didnt post it. I When I tried to find it, i found that i couldnt locate it, but on my word it was a legitamate source. We are not arguing whether or not homosexuality is wrong, which you are turning this intoo a debate about. It is about Westboro Baptist Church and their protests. I ask you for the sake of an accurate debate, please do not change the subject. If you made up a religion against homosexuality, and a majority of Americans claim to be a part of your church, then homosexuality is not socially acceptable. As for the percentage of Americans who claim to be Christians, here is my source.

http://www.religioustolerance.org...

Also, since this is my last speech, saying that you will provide a source proving America is secular is abuse. If you want a good debate, you would provide me a source so I can refute it. I allowed you time to refute my sources by allowing you to have the last speech.

^^^"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
http://www.usconstitution.net......

This is from the first amendment of the constitution. If the founding fathers were so bent on establishing America as a nation based on faith, why did they specifically make it so that congress respects or establishes NO religion. You may practice any ridiculous religion you like but the government will not have any say in the matter. This does not prove your point.'

--- Once again, you are abusing this debate. Now, instead of homosexuality, you are tuning this into a debate about religion, which it's not. Its a debate on the moral stance of WBC's actions. They are hurting the lives of the families of the fallen soldiers, and WBC is morally wrong in what they are doing. This is not a debate on religion, so please stick to the topic. PLEASE.

^^^ "The Bible is a book written by numerous authors years after the alleged death of Jesus. We really cannot trust anything written in the Bible. It doesn't exactly have a winning record. What with it's story of seven day creation, great flood, and talking snakes which we can now prove never happened.'

--- Now here you go again with religion. It doesnt matter if there is any physical proof or not, or at least none you can see. It is based on the beliefs of myself and the majority of Americans. Since the majority of Americans adhere to the Bible by claiming to be Christians, then the moral stance on what WBC is doing is against the beliefs of the majority of Americans, and thus they are wrong in what they do.

^^^ "America, as I have already shown, is not a country based on faith. Read the first amendment. And show why because a group has a minority opinion that makes them wrong? And who cares if they are a real sect of Christianity or not. That does not make them wrong."

--- It does not matter if America is based on faith or not, it matters if WBC is making the wrong decision in the majority of Americans, which they are. Quote this source.

"Counter protests are often organized to be held at sites that Westboro Baptist pickets.[115][116][31][117][118][119][120][121][122] In some cases counter protesters have lined up and turned their backs on the Westboro Baptist pickets or encircled them in a ring, explaining that they want to symbolically shield the community from the protest.[citation needed]

In 1999, Michael Moore organized a humorous counter protest against the church for his television show The Awful Truth. He followed Phelps around the country in the "Sodomobile", a pink bus filled with gay men and women. At one point, they even got out to meet Fred Phelps and Moore introduced the Sodomobile to him.[123][124]

Two days after the September 11 attacks, a 19-year old man named Jared Dailey stood on the street corner facing the church holding up a plywood sign that said "Not today, Fred." Within two days, 86 people joined him, waving American flags and anti-hate signs.[125] Since then, "Not today, Fred" has become a commonly used motto for counter protests against Phelps.[citation needed]

On December 12, 2008, the group picketed a production of The Laramie Project at the Boston Center for the Arts. Local activists held a Phelps-A-Thon in response. Supporters pledged online to donate for every minute WBC protested. The event raised over $4,600 dollars for an LGBT-rights project, Driving Equality.[126]

On December 11, 2010, the day of the funeral of Elizabeth Edwards, a group called "Line of Love" planned to have about 200 protesters on the north side of West Edenton Street in Raleigh, North Carolina while 10 Westboro members picketed on the south side of the street, two blocks away from the funeral. While Westboro members who disagreed with Edwards' tolerance for gays were "promoting awareness of the dangers of homosexuality", Line of Love had the goal of "promoting proper respect for funerals."[127]

On February 24, 2011, hacktivists successfully took Westboro Baptist Church's websites down. The church claims this was the work of Anonymous, but the group denied responsibility, instead identifying The Jester as the culprit.[128] During a live TV confrontation on The David Pakman Show between Shirley Phelps-Roper and a spokesman for Anonymous, Shirley claimed that Anonymous could not "stop God's message" even if they were to try. In response, Anonymous seized control of one of Westboro's subdomains.[129]"

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Basically, so many American are against what WBC is doing, they are taking counter protest measures against them. And, as this source said, homosexual Americans joined in Anti-protests in their so called "Sodomobile". This debate is not about whether or not homosexuality is wrong, religion false, or protesting Constitutionality. It is a raw debate on the morals behind WBC's protests, which are completely and utterly uselss to WBC, and harming to the families of our fallen soldiers. If the homosexual community is willing to try and stop WBC's protest, then obviously WBC is wrong.

In conclusion, vote Pro. Not only is my opponent constanly getting off subject, but he isn't even debating the topic. I have shown evidence that Westboro Baptist Church is morally wrong on their stance of protesting soldier's funerals, because Christians and homosexuals alike are opposed to WBC's actions. Westboro Baptist Church is wrong in protesting soldier's funerals, and should immeadiatly issue and apology to the families of our fallen warriors.
PLEASE VOTE PRO ON THIS ISSUE.
socialpinko

Con

"If homosexuality is not agreed with by a mojority(sic) of people, then socially it is not acceptable."

How does the majority opinion on a subject decide if it is inherently tight or wrong? In the eighteenth century the majority of people believed slavery was right and in the dark ages most people believed that the Earth was flat.
And does this mean that there is something different about homosexuality in parts of the world where it is more socially acceptable? What makes it more right in Europe then in the US. Were Jews really less of people then everyone else in Germany during WW2? I am not turning this into a debate about homosexuality. I am still refuting each and everyone of your points.

"Also, since this is my last speech, saying that you will provide a source proving America is secular is abuse. If you want a good debate, you would provide me a source so I can refute it. I allowed you time to refute my sources by allowing you to have the last speech."

What are you talking about? I provided the source and gave you a whole round to refute it which you did not. I clearly allowed you time to refute my source(the Constitution) if you could. You did not so we may assume that the US is based on secular values.

"Once again, you are abusing this debate. Now, instead of homosexuality, you are tuning this into a debate about religion, which it's not. Its a debate on the moral stance of WBC's actions."

You wrote that America was based on religious values and that the WBC was going against these values. It was my job to show you that America is not based on religious values and so the WBC could not be going against them as they are nonexistent.

"Now here you go again with religion. It doesnt(sic) matter if there is any physical proof or not, or at least none you can see. It is based on the beliefs of myself and the majority of Americans. Since the majority of Americans adhere to the Bible by claiming to be Christians, then the moral stance on what WBC is doing is against the beliefs of the majority of Americans, and thus they are wrong in what they do."

You are such a conformist. You believe that since the majority does not support specific life stance then it cannot be right. Was slavery ever right ? Were Jews ever inferior to Germans? Your argument is fallacious in that you do not show why the WBC is wrong. You just show that they are a minority opinion. This would have been an easy debate for you to win if you would have brought forth a real argument.

"It does not matter if America is based on faith or not, it matters if WBC is making the wrong decision in the majority of Americans, which they are."

You wrote that America was based on faith. I was merely correcting a clearly misguided view. And again, were the abolitionists of the nineteenth century wrong just because they were a minority opinion?

"Basically, so many American are against what WBC is doing, they are taking counter protest measures against them. And, as this source said, homosexual Americans joined in Anti-protests in their so called "Sodomobile". This debate is not about whether or not homosexuality is wrong, religion false, or protesting Constitutionality. It is a raw debate on the morals behind WBC's protests, which are completely and utterly uselss to WBC, and harming to the families of our fallen soldiers. If the homosexual community is willing to try and stop WBC's protest, then obviously WBC is wrong."

The only reason you are saying that they are wrong is because they hurt people's feelings and because they are a minority opinion. It used to be a minority opinion that evolution explained our origins or that the Earth was actually round. You have still failed to bring any real arguments against the WBC's right to protest their minority point of view.

"In conclusion, vote Pro. Not only is my opponent constanly(sic) getting off subject, but he isn't even debating the topic. I have shown evidence that Westboro Baptist Church is morally wrong on their stance of protesting soldier's funerals, because Christians and homosexuals alike are opposed to WBC's actions."

Vote con please. Pro's only arguments have been that some people disagree with the WBC's stance. Pro believes that if anyone disagrees with something then that must be wrong. This is a clearly fallacious argument. Were the Allie's wrong because the Nazi's disagreed with them? Pro has based his arguments on horribly misguided lines of thinking. It is because of this that I set aside some of my room to clear things up. I was able to do this and still refute pro's weak arguments.

While I personally agree with pro he has backed up his claim rather poorly. He thinks that if someone disagrees with you then you must be wrong.
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Brenavia 5 years ago
Brenavia
All in all, good debate socialpinko. I look forward to debating with you again!
Posted by mcc1789 5 years ago
mcc1789
I find it disturbing that someone would seek to claim that something is "right" or "wrong" based on the majority opinion. Seriously?
Posted by socialpinko 5 years ago
socialpinko
I'm not defending christianity or homophobia. I'm simply defending freedom of speech. I don't agree with these bigots anymore then any other normal person.
Posted by mongeese 5 years ago
mongeese
Well, that was a quick forfeit.
Posted by Moroni23 5 years ago
Moroni23
I hope the person who accepts this challenge burns forever in Hell. It absolutely disgusts me those baptists who protests at the soldiers funerals.
Posted by Rusty 5 years ago
Rusty
I might take this just for the challenge. Not sure I'd be able to win, but I can try.
Do you mind if I play devil's advocate, or are you looking for someone with a genuine position?
Posted by Robikan 5 years ago
Robikan
This should make for an interesting debate. It is difficult to defend the actions of WBC, but I'm sure someone will.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by mcc1789 5 years ago
mcc1789
BrenaviasocialpinkoTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro was unconvincing at best. Though like both Pro and Con I dislike the Westboro Baptist Church, Pro failed to prove his argument.
Vote Placed by Robikan 5 years ago
Robikan
BrenaviasocialpinkoTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro's arguments were at times unclear and Con's arguments were not adequately refuted.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 5 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
BrenaviasocialpinkoTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro could stand a proof read.
Vote Placed by GeorgeCarlinWorshipper 5 years ago
GeorgeCarlinWorshipper
BrenaviasocialpinkoTied
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Total points awarded:24 
Reasons for voting decision: See Kegan's decision; I agree.
Vote Placed by Kegan 5 years ago
Kegan
BrenaviasocialpinkoTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con refuted arguments a lot better than pro.