The Instigator
1Devilsadvocate
Con (against)
Winning
42 Points
The Contender
Anti-atheist
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

We've had plenty of worse things than the holocaust and the civil war since we've gotten the interne

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
1Devilsadvocate
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/10/2012 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,357 times Debate No: 28068
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (0)
Votes (6)

 

1Devilsadvocate

Con

The following statement was made:
"We've had plenty of worse things than the holocaust and the civil war since we've gotten the Internet."[1]

The resolution of this debate is that statement, in the context of that thread.

I am Con.

No lawyering
No semantics
No new arguments in R5

[1] http://www.debate.org...
Anti-atheist

Pro

The holocost was punishment for killing jesus. It was good. And the civil war wasnt even that bad. We've had terrorist organize since the internet .
Debate Round No. 1
1Devilsadvocate

Con

I must say I wasn't expecting this. I think I'm going to repost this.

I guess I should have put no trolling in the rules, but I might as well have some fun now.

(Some may think that my opponents words were B.S., if you do, you can skip my arguments for this round, (& probably the rest of the debate).)

My opponent begins with:

"The holocaust was punishment for killing Jesus."

My opponent brings no evidence for this most harmful myth, which has caused the death of countless Jews over the centuries, & has now finally been rejected. (It's about time, but I guess it's better late than never.)

Official Christian doctrine no longer holds that Jews killed Jesus, although it once spread that lie.[1]

The Church through the Pope has already apologized for starting this horrible rumor used to kill so many Jews over the centuries. For more: http://www.adl.org...
http://www.virtualjewishlibrary.org...

Sadly, as you can see, hate & lies don't die easily.

No record of Jesus being killed either in Roman or Jewish literature of the day.
The Sanhedrin (Highest Jewish court) was big on record keeping, the claim that this whole outrage happened, & no mention is made anywhere belies that it happened.
& There was political motivation at the time to cuddle up to the Roman victors & blame the Jews.[2]

"The accusation of "Christ-killer" was used as justification for isolating, robbing, torturing, and murdering Jews. It's only in recent times--the last fifty years, perhaps not that long--that leading Christian authorities have reviewed the circumstances and acknowledged the injustices of the past 2,000 years."[3]

"Documented evidence unearthed from authentic ancient manuscripts shows that it was rather a Roman appointed official out of jealousy, together with a few of his subordinates, who forced the Roman governor to Judaea Pontius Pilate to kill Jesus, US author John Hagee, reveals. The evidence reveals that the Jews were actually in his defence and if they had had a chance they would have both blocked and attacked anyone who would touch Jesus. In his book "In Defence Of Israel", Hagee reveals that Jesus was killed out of political envy by an individual and not by the nation as has been popularly preached on church pulpits and is also a side-doctrine in Islamic teaching."[4]

"The most notable recent effort to answer Who killed Jesus is a gargantuan, 1,600 page, two-volume work The Death of the Messiah, written by Raymond E. Brown, one of the leading New Testament scholars of the late twentieth century.

As Brown points out, while it is clear that some of the Jewish leaders were opposed to Jesus, it is also clear that only Rome had the power to condemn and crucify a man. Strains of anti-Judaism crept into the New Testament as the early Christians began to move away from Jewish traditions and embrace non-Jews into their movement. That is, as the early church sought to distance itself from its Jewish roots, it encouraged readings of the events of the Passion that would cast the Jewish authorities in a poor light. The writers of the gospels were not immune to this. Contemporary scholarship therefore treats this issue with justifiable care and attention.

Daniel J. Harrington, S.J., a renowned New Testament scholar, answers the question simply: "Pontius Pilate, cooperating with some Jewish leaders, was responsible for the death of Jesus."

The key point is that Jesus was executed by Romans for a Roman crime, that is, sedition. "Jesus was, in fact, executed by the Romans," writes D. Moody Smith, professor of New Testament at Duke University, in an essay in Harper's Bible Commentary."[5]

Even If It Were True:

There is no reason to lay blame at anybody's feet, because if Jesus had not died he could not be resurrected and his prophesy could not be fulfilled. The death and resurrection were all part of God's plan. If you believe all that.[2]

Who killed Jesus is irrelevant. If you're a devout Christian, Jesus would tell you not to blame but to forgive. If Jesus hadn't died on the cross, you'd have no route to salvation. So in a way you should be thanking those who executed him, not blaming them.[3]

Furthermore:
If it was done, it was done by 1/ a few Jews, why should millions die?

Furthermore:
Jews who converted to Christianity were killed by Hitler. Even Jews who were born of Christian converts but had 3 or more Jewish grandparents were considered by Hitler to be Jews.
"Anyone with three or four Jewish grandparents was to be exterminated without exception. In other genocides, people were able to escape death by converting to another religion or in some other way assimilating. This option was not available to the Jews of occupied Europe,[26] unless their grandparents had converted before 18 January 1871. All persons of recent Jewish ancestry were to be exterminated in lands controlled by Germany.[27]"(6)

Furthermore:
Although The majority of Holocaust victims were Jewish, about 5 million were not Jewish. At least 3 million were Christian.

My opponent continues:

" It was good"
OOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.

That's the religion of love & peace for ya.

[1] http://www.faqs.org...
[2] http://answers.yahoo.com...
[3] http://www.straightdope.com...
[4] http://www.zimeye.org...
[5] http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
(6) http://en.wikipedia.org...
Anti-atheist

Pro

ALL your sources are Jewish bias. The church is manipulated by the Jews. There were no Christians as victims as that was put out by the jews.

" Even If It Were True:

There is no reason to lay blame at anybody's feet, because if Jesus had not died he could not be resurrected and his prophesy could not be fulfilled. The death and resurrection were all part of God's plan. If you believe all that.[2]

Who killed Jesus is irrelevant. If you're a devout Christian, Jesus would tell you not to blame but to forgive. If Jesus hadn't died on the cross, you'd have no route to salvation. So in a way you should be thanking those who executed him, not blaming them"

You pour ignorant liberal sob.

"Then answered all the people and said, "His blood be on us, and on our children!" -Matt 27:25
Debate Round No. 2
1Devilsadvocate

Con

K. I hope this guy is a troll.

My opponent dropped most of my arguments, & has provided no evidence of his own.

VOTE CON.

Not one of those sources were Jewish.

Pro gives no evidence that the church is manipulated by Jews.

It's a fact Christians died in the holocaust.
The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (USHMM) states: "The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews and millions of others by the Nazis and their collaborators during World War II."[1](1)

The Nazi occupation of Poland was one of the most brutal episodes of the war, resulting in more than two million deaths, not including some three million Polish Jews.[8] The five million Poles killed, Jewish, Roman Catholic and Orthodox, accounted for 14% of the country's population.[8](1)

God only punishes up to the 4th generation:

Exodus 20:5
I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Exodus 34:7
maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."

Deuteronomy 5:9
I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

(1) http://en.wikipedia.org...
Anti-atheist

Pro

The sources were manipulated by jews as alex jones showed.[1]
God only punished the forth generation only in the old testament. The Holocost was good. Holocost excited tree m the creation of Israel. So it w as good. Hitler was a godly man

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." -Hitler.

Just as the Jew could once incite the mob of Jerusalem against Christ, so today he must succeed in inciting folk who have been duped into madness to attack those who, God's truth! seek to deal with this people in utter honesty and sincerity.

-Adolf Hitler, in Munich, 28 July 1922

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

Amen. The jews had to be punished

[1] Alex Jones Radio Show December 9 2012
Debate Round No. 3
1Devilsadvocate

Con

LOL.

I see your a really holy man. I think you should be celibate.

"The sources were manipulated by Jews asThe sources were manipulated by jews as alex jones showed.[1]"

GR8 source.

A bit about the fellow you may not know:

"Mainstream sources have described Jones... as a right-wing conspiracy theorist.[7][8][9][10] ... Jones has been the center of many controversies, and has accused the US government of being involved in the Oklahoma City bombing[15] and September 11 attacks.[16]"

Legal issues:

In July 2000, a group of Austin Community Access Center (ACAC) programmers claimed that Jones used legal proceedings and ACAC policy to intimidate them or get their shows thrown off the air.[21] Also in 2000, Jones and assistant Mike Hanson infiltrated Bohemian Grove and filmed the opening weekend ceremony, known as the Cremation of Care, claiming it to be mock child sacrifice in front of a 40-foot-tall (12 m) stone owl of Moloch.
On June 8, 2006, while on his way to cover a meeting of the Bilderberg group in Ottawa, Canada, Jones was stopped and detained at the Ottawa airport by Canadian authorities who confiscated his passport, camera equipment, and most of his belongings. He was later allowed to enter Canada lawfully. Jones said regarding the reason for his immigration hold, "I want to say, on the record, it takes two to tango. I could have handled it better."[22]
On September 8, 2007, he was arrested while protesting at 6th Avenue and 48th Street in New York City. He was charged with operating a bullhorn without a permit. Two others were also cited for disorderly conduct when his group crashed a live television show featuring Geraldo Rivera. In an article, one of Jones's fellow protesters said "It was ... guerilla information warfare."[23](1)


"God only punished the forth generation only in the old testament"

Then changed his mind? Where does it even say that?

"The Holocost was good. Holocost excited tree m the creation of Israel."

I'm not sure what's being said here, but if I understand you correctly your saying that the holocaust is good because it resulted in the creation of Israel. So it seems you support Israel but think the holocaust was good. Is that right?

"Hitler was a godly man"

Do me a favor. Call the alex jones show & ask him if he thinks "Hitler was a godly man".

So much for the religion of peace.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter."

Luke 6:27 “But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.

Romans 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil.

Psalm 34:14 seek peace and pursue it.

Matthew 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God."

Mark 9:50 Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”

Luke 6:27 “But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.

Romans 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil.

Genesis 12:2-3. God is speaking to Abraham. “I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you,and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

Luke 6:27 “But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.

Romans 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil.

The rest of what you wrote was incomprehensible to me.

Remember Hitler is gone the Jews live on.

To quote an essay by mark Twain:

Concerning the Jews (Harper's Magazine, Sept. 1899)

If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvellous fight in the world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it.
The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?(2)


"I will insist the Hebrews have [contributed] more to civilize men than any other nation if I was an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations ..."
- John Adams From a letter to F. A. Van der Kemp [Feb. 16, 1808] Pennsylvania Historical Society

"if we were forced to choose just one, there would be no way to deny that Judaism is the most important intellectual development in human history."
- David Gelernter, Yale University Professor

Luke 6:27 “But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.

Romans 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil.

Genesis 12:2-3. God is speaking to Abraham. “I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you,and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

Luke 6:27 “But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.

Romans 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil.









(1) http://en.wikipedia.org...(radio_host)
(2) http://en.wikiquote.org...
Anti-atheist

Pro

Pro attacks alex and claims he wins. Fail. Alex is an upstanding man.

" Then changed his mind? Where does it even say that?"

It says it in Matt 27:25. God didn't change his mind he just sometimes makes exceptions.

" t the holocaust is good because it resulted in the creation of Israel. So it seems you support Israel but think the holocaust was good. Is that right?"

Yes. Jews deserved it. Christians need the holy land of Israel. God uses slime like jews for good.

you cherry pick the bible. You can hate what god hates. But you have to love the enemy if god doesnt say anything about them.
Debate Round No. 4
1Devilsadvocate

Con

TO PRO:
I think you should read this:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com...'s%20Corner/Doctrines/why_jews_are_hated.htm

I did not cheery pick, there is not one verse that says that god hates the Jewish people.
Not one verse in the whole bible, it's a myth made up by anti Semites.
Look through the whole bible, you won't find a single verse that says god hates the Jews.


Some verses that show god loves the Jews:


For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself... (Deuteronomy 14:2)


For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel to be a people unto thee for ever. (2 Samuel 7:24)


For the Lord hath chosen the house of Jacob unto himself... (Psalm 135:4)


"The LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth ... because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your ancestors."
(Deuteronomy 7.6,8)

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. - John 4:22

10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. - Deuteronomy 32:10

The Scriptures reveal the Jews as "the apple of God's eye" (Zechariah 2:8).

The Bible makes it clear that they will be the object of God's His grace (Zechariah 13:1) in the end times.


__________________________________________________________________________________________

We are privileged to live in an age when God is fulfilling many promises to the Jews. What a testimony this is to the fact that God is alive and well, that God is on His throne and in control, and that God is faithful to His promises.
1) Regathering â€" The Old Testament prophets promise repeatedly that the day will come when God will regather the Jews to Palestine (see Isaiah 11:10-12 and Ezekiel 36:22-28). This remarkable regathering of the Jews from the four corners of the earth has occurred in our life time. World War I prepared the land for the people as the control of Palestine was transferred from a nation that hated the Jews (the Turks) to a nation that was sympathetic to their return (Britain). The Holocaust of World War II prepared the people for the land by motivating them to return.
2) Nationhood â€" The prophets stated that when the people were regathered, the nation of Israel would be re-established. This occurred on May 14, 1948 (see Isaiah 66:7-8; Zechariah 12:3-6). This is the cornerstone prophetic event of our age. It is an event that prophetic scholars have pointed to for 400 years amid much scoffing and ridicule by those who did not believe that Israel would ever exist again as a nation.
3) Reclamation â€" God promised that with the re-establishment of the nation, the land would bloom again (Isaiah 35:1-7; Joel 2:21-26). As Ezekiel put it, people would one day exclaim: "This desolate land has become like the garden of Eden!" ...

14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, says the LORD thy God. (Amos 9: 14 - 15)

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.... Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, says the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. (Jeremiah 30:7-10)

Therefore say, Thus says the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. Ezekiel 11:17

Romans 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil.

Genesis 12:2-3. God is speaking to Abraham. “I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you,and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”



For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure. (Psalm 135:4)

For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself... (Deuteronomy 14:2)

For the Lord hath chosen the house of Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure. (Psalm 135:4)


"The LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth ... because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your ancestors."
(Deuteronomy 7.6,8)

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. - John 4:22

10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. - Deuteronomy 32:10

The Scriptures reveal the Jews as "the apple of God's eye" (Zechariah 2:8).

Genesis 12:2-3. God is speaking to Abraham. “I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you,and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”
Anti-atheist

Pro

You poor poor man. God DID love the juice. Until they rejected Jesus.
Debate Round No. 5
No comments have been posted on this debate.
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by imabench 3 years ago
imabench
1DevilsadvocateAnti-atheistTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Horrible arguments, used horribly inferior sources, spelling was terrible all across the board, and he routinely showed bad conduct. Complete win for the con.
Vote Placed by Topiarey 3 years ago
Topiarey
1DevilsadvocateAnti-atheistTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro basically dropped everything, and I don't know if he's winning in anything. Con clearly wins this debate. Easy win.
Vote Placed by DeFool 3 years ago
DeFool
1DevilsadvocateAnti-atheistTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: In every category, Con was clearly the superior of Pro. I agree with Pro that this debate was trolled and, therefore, sabotaged by Pro. My scoring reflects this conduct, as well as the overall competency exhibited.
Vote Placed by RyuuKyuzo 3 years ago
RyuuKyuzo
1DevilsadvocateAnti-atheistTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: I can't even find 1 point to give to pro. He losses conduct for dropping all of cons arguments in the last round and for insulting him throughout the debate. He constantly used incomplete sentences, so he losses s/g. Dropping con's arguments auto-losses him arguments and he didn't use any actual sources.
Vote Placed by Magic8000 3 years ago
Magic8000
1DevilsadvocateAnti-atheistTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro just ignores sources by saying "those were made by the jews". Hardly anything pro says is logical or sourced.
Vote Placed by t-man 3 years ago
t-man
1DevilsadvocateAnti-atheistTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Easy win for Con