The Instigator
Pro (for)
0 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
12 Points

What Does God Owe Us?

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/14/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 517 times Debate No: 79394
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (2)




The universe is like a shaken bottle of water. The water represents timespace, energy the Father, "the substance of things hoped for"- Heb11:1. The air represents probability, energy the Holy Spirit, "the evidence of things not seen"- Heb11:1.The bottle itself represents the limitation of impossibilities. The shaking is the one substance exerting its oneness in one direction stirring closed circuitry, represented by the bubbles, that there be something to move out of the way and fill in behind, that all circulating the same way repel, by the basis of Planck's volume, "the stone which the builders rejected" - Mat21:42, energy the Son, administering orthogonality that not only pushes for confluence for undifferentiation but temporarily blocks the processes of undifferentiation. But, by the second law of thermodynamics undifferentiation is naturally inevitable, centripetal undifferentiating greater than centrifugal orthogonal blocking. Each bubble eventually ceases to exist having its original eternal nonexistence restored. What is it that God took away from us that He didn't give us, therefore that He owes us back? NONEXISTENCE!


I accept. God owes us nothing.
Debate Round No. 1


Is God a just God? God is a just God. It is justice that He give us back that which He took away from us, that He didn't give us. He came as Jesus Christ to confer immortality upon those who wanted eternal life, and who followed His directions to have eternal life. But, if we ask for nonexistence, it is justice that He give us our original eternal nonexistence back. He especially owes us who, want our eternal nonexistence back, our eternal nonexistence back.


Although I am an atheist I will be arguing from a religious point of view for the sake of this debate.

If God owes me something – happiness, wealth, health or whatever, I will naturally feel short-changed if I don't get it. You regularly hear stories of people who believed in God, until a friend got ill, or died, or they saw some tragedy, or heard about the tsunami, or encountered real suffering and 'lost their faith'. I suspect this happens because deep down we think that God owes us something, and if God doesn't give it, then the problem is with God – either that he is unkind, or simply doesn't exist. If God owes me something and he doesn't provide it, I lose faith in God. To begin however from the perspective that God owes us nothing – that we have no rights over him, no claim on him, means that everything we do get comes as a gift – as a sheer delight, something to be deeply grateful for. Every breath, friendship, act of kindness, chocolate, football, strawberries – they are all gifts not rights. It suddenly turns everything about my life from something I feel I have right to, and moan mercilessly about if I lose it, to something that is a true surprise. Our natural cry 'it's not fair' when something bad happens to us reflects this same basic idea – that we somehow deserve fairness or justice.

To that extent the Dawkins brigade are perhaps right – we should not think the universe is made for us, that we are any more than specks of life on a distant planet, and we should give up our delusions of deserving divine intervention when things go a bit wrong. The essence of Christian faith is the faith that although this is precisely what we should expect, the surprise is that we doreceive so much from the hand of God. Despite our insignificance, we have been privileged by God to play a key role on this planet of reflecting his image to the rest of creation. We do sometimes enjoy gifts of health, laughter, sport, music, shelter etc., and these are neither random accidents of a faceless universe, nor things we have a right to expect because of our inherent deserving, but gratuitous, free gifts from the heart that beats behind it all.

It is so much better to view everything as unexpected and gratuitous gift than as right. 'Rights' make us grasping, holding onto things and insisting on them – it centres life around me and what I deserve. 'Gift' makes us grateful, always delighted with the new things that come, and a bit more philosophical about stuff we lose. In the Christian life, if I think God owes me something, then grace and mercy will not seem a miracle to me at all – after all, it's only what I deserve. If God owes us nothing, his grace, the gift of Jesus, the Holy Spirit his provision of my needs are all miracles, things I don't deserve and thus to be given thanks for with a constant sense of wonder and amazement. This insight is perhaps the key to a truly thankful and (relatively) carefree life. It is perhaps the key to happiness.

I will use the next round for rebuttals.
Debate Round No. 2


lahunken61 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3


God owes us back the eternal nonexistence we had that He took away from us by imposing existence upon us. We didn't exist in the eternal past. Now, He owes us the eternal nonexistence we ask for the eternal future. I don't think He owes us anything else, except a very lucky life for as long as we have to endure the existence He imposed upon us. It's pure justice, tit for tat.


My opponent hasn't given given me much to refute so this round will be shorter than the last.


R1 & R2

My opponents round 2 argument is very unspecific and so what I understood from this round is that it is justice that God gives us back our original eternal nonexistence. Since pro did not define this term I looked it up and the definition is as follows:

In philosophy,
eternal oblivion (also referred to as non-existence or nothingness) is the rejection of an afterlife and the belief that a person's consciousness permanently ceases upon death.

I have no choice other than to take this definition (even though it doesn't make much sense in terms of my opponent's argument). Since my opponent has not provided an alternative I am forced to take this definition.

In round 1 Pro quotes multiple lines in the Bible and therefore they believe in an afterlife. It does not make sense that God would owe us an afterlife. Even if "the universe is like a shaken bottle of water." My opponent hasn't provided a reason as to why God owes us no afterlife. Surely as a Christian (I assume) my opponent would want to go to heaven.


My opponent forfeited.


God shouldn't give us a very lucky life because if he does exist then we will have to learn for ourselves. If God gives us everything we want and we never go through a hard times then we will have no survival instincs, no need to adapt. What will be the purpose of life then? Life must have a purpose if we are assuming that God exists. God must have had a purpose to create us and I doubt his / her purpose was to give us everything we want and we never have to work to solve our problems.
Debate Round No. 4


There are two things in the universe: energy; and, information, which is the conformation of energy. This conformation, differentiation, of energy is in closed circuitry, that there be something to move out of the way and fill in behind, in the absolute density of the one substance, energy. Differentiation causes consciousness, so that, in turn, the matrix of energy is thusly differentiated and therefore energy is conscious, and better known as God.

"In Him we live, move, and have our being". God was called "Him" perhaps due to the ancient Israelite assignment of authority to males, or, the fact that energy is seen as active. Such "positive" attributes were attributed to males due to the fact that such was the male viewpoint. Like polarities repel and cause "positive" (like the confrontation of solid "posited" objects) effects.

In actuality, counterclockwise circuits are male, and clockwise circuits are female. These are the real polarities. Even the tiniest subatomic particles are made of closed circuits. The magnetic fluxes of the iron in the cytochromes of all male cells are counterclockwise, and in females, clockwise. Some of us can see the repulsion of like polarities as bright white light, from repelling the magnetic fluxes in the cytochromes of the cells of the optic nerves.

Opposite polarities, circuits confluent to ours, are seen as peaceful darkness ("the thick darkness where God is") in which we can experience moments of the satisfaction of all desires, known in the East as "nirvana'. Everything is running down, or stressed up by that which is running down; all pushing into ultimate confluency and peace.

The consciousness of energy is infinite and eternal. If we were energy we would never sleep. We are only information, each a closed circuit, alpha code information. Energy creating eternally is a consequence of theophysiology. The infinitessimal point nothingness, . , is rastered by time into timespace, U, which being one, exerts its oneness in one direction, /, which stirs closed circuitry, O, which all going the same way, vO^XvO^, repels, X, forcing confluency, =, which allows undfferentiation, and it starts all over again.

But, by the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the exact same circuits never differentiate again. The smallest thing is Planck's volume. The same Planck's volumes never reassemble again into the same closed circuit, but each proceeds out toward infinity, by circuits through circuits of the infinite continuum.

There is a psudo-scientist trying to prove a proposed law of the conservation of information to enforce Plato's belief in "immortality of the soul", but, fortunately, he has failed miserably. Those who have a wish for immortality actually seek to have continued satisfactions, but, all satisfactions are only moments of more undifferentiation. Pains are times of acute differentiation. All reliefs, pleasures, are moments of more undifferentiation of the closed circuit we call "I".

But, so many people cried for immortality that God incarnated as Jesus Christ to give directions on how to become immortal. But, actions bring reactions that return with equal worth. That which we cause is on the way back by the ultimate closed circuitry; which is called "karma" in the East.

Fire world? The fifth dimension has been defined as that direction through variously bent timespaces. In the direction of timespaces with pi values less than 3.14159265..., globally bent timespace, there are faster and faster polarity cancellation rates. Fire is a very fast polarity cancellation rate. But there, undifferentiation with the opposite polarity is much more probable, differentiation back into nonexistence, "nirvana". In the East, this world has been called "dharmaloka", where "nirvana" is most easily attainable,

We know that that with a fast velocity has a field of globally bent timespace around it. In mechanics, power is force times velocity; in electricity power is voltage times current, and, in thermodynamics power is temperature times entropy production rate. The entropy of the universe is the proportion of photons to nucleons, therefore, entropy is an extent of polarity cancellation, therefore, entropy production rate is polarity cancellation rate. The Philadelphia Experiment, which was actually accomplished, showed that there was no gravitational component with the electrical analogue.

There is no gravitational component with the thermodynamic analogue, which is so easy that any free person can do it. Gravity itself bends timespace globally. Timespaces with pi values higher than 3.14159265... are miserable, and called "saddle" timespace due to its geometry being parabolichyperboloidal. As unbearable as it is, "saddle" timespace is not the place originally called "Hell". Fire is impossible there. And, it has been called "bound astral light"; whereas, globally bent timespace is called "quickened astral light".

Now we know where it's at; and can figure the reasons for all the lies to keep power and wealth in the hands of the authors of these lies. Also, for every possibility there is a probability timeline sideways in time, which could be called the "sixth dimension". If more that fifty percent of your brain believes anything possible, that strong thought will draw you to the probability timeline where it is reality.

And, that which wakes up the brain makes your mind more powerful to draw you to the probability timelines where your thoughts are reality. With between thirty and forty percent brain use everything you write will become your reality. And, between forty and fifty percent brain use everything you say will become your reality." If you have the faith of a mustard seed and say to this mountain move, it will be moved". You go to the probability timeline where the mountain is elsewhere.
I have existed for too long.
They are also ruining the economy to trigger an elimination of the America
as we know it, so they can round up, and exterminate everyone who knows too
much. They caught me once. In 1959 my buddy and I met a homeless banished
ex-lodge member. He told us all the big secrets. In 1962 I wrote them in a
high school term paper, got a 98% for it, graduated with honors, and joined the
Meanwhile, the instructor of that class sold my term paper in the term paper
black market, the wrong people read it, they hired detectives to hunt me down,
and they zeroed in on me in the Army. They gave me Hell, the Clockwork Orange
treatment, by large doses of LSD, while being forced to watch horrible films of
human torment.
But before doing that, they bragged to me how powerful they were: the modern
"conspiracy theory". Before the modern conspiracy theory, the "conspiracy
theory" was that rich Jews controlled the world's economy. I wrote a twenty page
report and mailed it to the John Birch society, in 1972. Then the John Birch
society published what I sent them which became the modern conspiracy theory.
The Clockwork Orange treatment I was given, by large doses of LSD, went
much further than they expected. Not only did I live the torments of all the
people in the films they showed me, I lived the times, when I saw them, of every
person and animal I had seen, even in the movies and on TV. After that life I
found myself back in time, back in Valley Forge Army Hospital where it happened
again, but, I also body switched into the bodies of all I had seen in that life,
for the periods of time I had seen them. Then the life after that, I was able to
remember some of the mistakes I made the last time around.
On September 17, 1970 I got stung by a bumble bee, while I was deep in the
forest. I am allergic to bees, and soon I passed out, waking up, what seemed
instantly, six hours later. This turned out to be a great blessing, for the next
time around, after another life time, I woke up back where I had passed out from
the allergic reaction. But, I had great mind power there and u


Look what I've found:

If you look at this link you will find my opponents whole argument. Not a word of it was his. I do not have the time to be refuting somebody else's argument. My opponent has:

a) Failed to provide a source

b) Not quoted any of their argument

I was suspicious of my opponents argument since they never bothered to respond to my argument so all I did was copy and paste their first paragraph into google and what did I find? That website. I read what the website said and I read my opponents argument and what a surprise - they were identical. Not one word was different.

Vote con!
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by MagicAintReal 1 year ago
The universe is actually like a balloon, and the shaking is more of an expansion than an agitation.
Posted by Longline 1 year ago
we have nothing that we can give God, we can only think him, and show him we like what he has done for us.

that is all. nothing more.
Posted by Balacafa 1 year ago
God doesn't exist.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 1 year ago
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: I can (and do) vote entirely based on the final round. Pro's decision to plagiarize what was basically his entire argument suffices as a reason for me to afford all 6 points to Con. It shows that he was derelict in his duty to produce arguments, which means Con automatically takes those points. It shows a disregard for the basic rules of the site, which means Con automatically takes conduct points. Finally, it shows a disregard for sourcing. Since Con actually provided the source, and clearly showcased the plagiarism, Con takes those points as well.
Vote Placed by MagicAintReal 1 year ago
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro's plagiarism is a sign of a poor debater who cannot source things correctly, and forfeiting is bad conduct. I can't say the arguments from Pro were convincing, because I can't tell what is Pro's argument and what is plagiarized. Con sources, has their own arguments, and does not forfeit. For these reasons conduct, sources, and arguments to Con. Grammar was tied in my view.