The Instigator
Jordeef
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
NotYourFault
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

What Smeagol Loves Doing

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/6/2012 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 7,807 times Debate No: 27915
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (13)
Votes (0)

 

Jordeef

Pro

I will be arguing that Smeagol loves to spend his free time eating fish and arguing with himself about what he wants to do.

My opponent will argue that he would rather spend his time doing something else.
NotYourFault

Con

I would first like to thank my opponent for creating this debate. I have been eagerly awaiting a debate of this caliber for quite some time. I can only hope my opponent can keep up, as I have prepared libraries of sources, with several tomes cataloging the exact whereabouts of Smeagol for over 500 years.

I will be arguing that Smeagol does not "[love] to spend his free time eating fish and arguing with himself", but rather he would love to spend his free time fishing in the waters of the Gladden River with his beloved Deagol. Sadly, however, Smeagol is not upon us anymore (PBUH). He perished in the fires of mount doom along with his precious. Let us begin.
Debate Round No. 1
Jordeef

Pro

As always, thank you for accepting this challenge to debate.

I will explain how the intentions and documented actions of Smeagol in all media directly prove his exclusive joy in fish and introverted debate. I will always refute the ridiculous lack of validity inherent in my opponents basis for argument.

The concept of "Smeagol" is one inherently obsessed with fish. He is first met by Bilbo Baggins in the dark recesses of the Misty Mountains. "He paddled it with large feet dangling over the side, but never a ripple did he make." (pg. 68 "The Hobbit") Obviously Smeagol was adept at the art of blindfish-hunting because he was skilled enough to not disturb the fish's powerful senses of hearing. Gollum has been perfectly adapted for his past-time of fishing. He is described as dark with pale yet luminous eyes. He is nearly impossible to detect under these conditions.

Smeagol is also a philosopher. He is constantly in debate with himself over the best course of action. This is seen in the Two Towers when he argues with himself. Smeagol clearly wins the argument. His opponent, Smeagol results to debased use of ad hominem "You don't have any friends; nobody likes you!"

Con's argument is triflin cuz that nigga Deagol dead
NotYourFault

Con

"...ridiculous lack of validity inherent in my opponent's basis for argument." Already resorting to the reductio ad absurdum, I see. That's not going to help you, Jordeef.

"The concept of 'Smeagol' is one inherently obsessed with fish." With this statement, you are presupposing that if I were to enjoy fish, studied them with great fervor, or even wished to become one of their kind, I would become a "Smeagol". Well, Jordeef, I can tell you with 100% certainty that logic is flawed. Quite honestly, it's patently absurd. Smeagol is not a concept first of all, Smeagol is a Stoor Hobbit. "...there lived by the banks of the Great River on the edge of Wilderland a clever-handed and quiet-footed little people. I guess they were of hobbit-kind; akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors, for they loved the River, and often swam in it, or made little boats of reeds. There was among them a family of high repute, for it was large and wealthier than most, and it was ruled by a grandmother of the folk, stern and wise in old lore, such as they had. The most inquisitive and curious-minded of that family was called Smeagol." [1] Clearly Smeagol is not a concept. Albeit I will agree he was "adept at the art of blindfish-hunting", this skill was adapted out of necessity, not for his "past-time of fishing". Smeagol was trapped in the depths of the Goblin Kingdom under the Misty Mountains (for goblins were guarding each of the exits), where there was little to no light [2]. So naturally, or rather supernaturally, he gained this ability due to necessity.

"He had a friend called Deagol, of similar sort, sharper-eyed but not so quick and strong. On a time they took a boat and went down to the Gladden Fields, where there were great beds of iris and flowering reeds. There Smeagol got out and went nosing about on the banks but Deagol sat in the boat and fished."[3] As you can see, Smeagol and Deagol spent their free time in the Gladden Fields, fishing and investigating with each other.

Ahh, here my opponent has issued forth a non sequitur, saying "Smeagol clearly wins the argument. His oppoenent Smeagol results to the debased use of ad hominem 'You don't have any friends; nobody likes you!'". This is utterly incoherent, as if Smeagol won the debate, 1) he would not have had to resort to using an ad hominem, and 2) Smeagol would not have insulted his opponent 'Smeagol', he would have insulted his opponent 'Gollum', his alternate personality, because Smeagol suffered from Dissociative Identity Disorder. Besides, getting into an argument with your alternate personality doesn't qualify you as a philosopher. He also showed no sign whatsoever of *enjoying* the banter with Gollum.

He loved being with his dear friend Deagol, not living under a mountain and arguing with his alternate identity. I thank my opponent for such an intellectually stimulating round.

---
References:
1. Tolkien, Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring. The Shadow of the Past, page 57.
2. Tolkien, The Hobbit. Riddles In The Dark, pages 79-100.
2. Tolkien, Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring. The Shadow of the Past, page 58.
Debate Round No. 2
Jordeef

Pro

http://search.yahoo.com...

I rest this round of debate
NotYourFault

Con

I'd like to point out that under normal circumstances, my opponents waste of a round would be considered a forfeiture, but since this is a joke debate and there should be no victor at the end, we will continue as planned and treat this round as if it never existed. I'll say once more, THIS DEBATE IS TO REMAIN EVEN; THERE SHALL BE NO POINTS GIVEN TO EITHER PARTY.

I'll reiterate: Smeagol likes (liked, rather) to chill with his homeboy Deagol in them gladden fields, son.
Debate Round No. 3
Jordeef

Pro

To further substantiate my claims of Smeagol's love for fish and debate:

Fish

Smeagol (PBUH) loved fish. His life had been extended by the One Ring, and his subterranean cave lifestyle yielded fish as a primary means of sustenence:

"His thuglife was extended far beyond itz natural limitz by tha effectz of possessin tha Ring, which he frequently referred ta as "my precious" n' "my birthdizzle present" fo' realz."

Smeagol is quoted in his love for fish:

"Da rock n' pool, Is ill n' def, So juicy sweeeeet. Our only wish, To catch a fish, So juicy SWEEEEEEET, mutha***a!"

Debate

This quote proves the extended lengths to which Smeagol goes to participate in debate:

Gollum: Our thugged-out *sses wantz it, our crazy-*ss *sses needz dat s**t. Must have tha precious. They stole it from us. Right back up in yo mutha****n *ss. Sneaky lil hobbitses. Wicked, tricksy, false, mutha****a!
Smeagol: No. Not master, mutha****a!
Gollum: Yes, precious, false, mutha****a! They will cheat you, hurt you, LIE.
Smeagol: Masta is our playa, mutha***a!
Gollum: Yo *ss aint gotz any playas; no mutha****a likes you, mutha****a!
Smeagol: I be not listening... I be not listening...
Gollum: You're a liar n' a thief.
Smeagol: No, mutha****a!
Gollum: *Murderer*.
Smeagol: Go away, mutha****a!
Gollum: "Go away?" [Gollum laughs as Smeagol begins bustin up]
Smeagol: I don't give a **** bout you, I don't give a **** bout yo thugged-out *ss.
Gollum: Where would you be without me, gollum, gollum, b*atch? I saved us, mutha****a! It was me, mutha****a! Our thugged-out *sses survived cuz of me, mutha****!
Smeagol: [stops bustin up] Not anymore.
Gollum: What did you say, b*atch?
Smeagol: Masta looks afta our *sses now, nahmeean, b*atch? Our thugged-out *sses don't need you anymore.
Gollum: What, b*atch?
Smeagol: Leave now, n' never come back, mutha****a!
Gollum: No, mutha****a!
Smeagol: Leave now, n' never come back, mutha****a! [Gollum screams up in frustration]
Smeagol: LEAVE, mutha****a! NOW, mutha****a! AND NEVER COME BACK, mutha****a! [Gollum is silent]
Smeagol: [looks around] Our thugged-out *sses busted some lyrics ta his *ss ta go away... n' away he goes, Precious, mutha****a! Gone, gone, gone, mutha****a! Smeagol is free, mutha****a!

NotYourFault

Con

Refutations

"Smeagol (PBUH) loved fish. His life had been extended by the One Ring, and his subterranean cave lifestyle yielded fish as a primary means of sustenence...".

First of all, this is a non sequitur. Following an affinity for fish with a Ring-induced life extension is incoherent. Anent your statement that he loved fish because it was his only source of nutrition, I will recreate your argument in the following syllogism:

1)Smeagol can either eat fish or not-fish (F v ~F)
2)Smeagol can't eat not-fish because he's in an environment that only allows fish (~~F)
3)Smeagol eats fish (:.F)
:. Smeagol loves fish

This syllogism is obviously flawed because you came to a conclusion that can't be logically produced from the given premises. It is not logical to jump from necessity to desire. Just because the only food available to him is fish doesn't mean he loves fish.

"Our only wish, to catch a fish, so juicy SWEEEEET"

Now, this statement is clearly flawed. It is obviously from the movie, which alone rules out all possible validity. The movie is cinematic, so it is not likely to contain the most accurate information possible. If that were so, Tom Bombadil and Old Man Willow would be given at least a mention in the movie. The movies, as opposed to the books, also feature entirely new information that was not mentioned in the books. Therefore, any statement quoted from the movie cannnot be taken as fact from the Lord of the Rings canon.

...I don't even know where to begin with this. This dialogue is so res ipsa loquitur invalid it's utterly ridiculous. There is invalidity pouring out of my computer it's so bad. I can't contain this ignorance. Such ignorance has not been seen since Melkor was considered one of the Valar.

I'll reiterate: Smeagol ate fish out of necessity. He did not necessarily *like* fish. He also argued with his other personality because he was resigned to the effects of DID. His arguing (debating, as you like to say) with himself did not stem from philosophical foundations, but rather a mental disorder.

Contentions


Smeagol enjoyed hanging out with his friend Deagol and fishing and investigating, not eating fish out of necessity and arguing with himself due to clinically diagnosed Disossiative Identity Disorder.
Debate Round No. 4
Jordeef

Pro

Now I may not be as well versed in Smeagolian Apologetics as some, but I do know this: your contention that Smeagol enjoyed spending time with Deagol more than anything is inherently flawed. If Smeagol had loved Deagol more than he loved the "Precious", he would not have killed him for it. It is also obvious thay Smeagol only values the "Precious" so much because it extends his life. This gives Smeagol infitely more time to use catching and subsequently eating fish all alone. Did he spend those 500 cave years with Deagol? No. Deagol was dead because Smeagol killed him all for a ring and limitless fish time. What does Smeagol do other than eat fish and argue with his second personality? Absolutely nothing. It is out of this nothingness that Gollum was created. Smeagol does absolutely nothing else and therefore enjoys nothing other than what he does. Smeagol eats fish and argues with himself. Smeagol does not fish with Deagol because obviously, he prefers his current lifestyle over his previous one.

Proven: Smeagol "loves" eating fish and arguing with himself because he does nothing else. He has nothing else because he has chosen to give up everything else.
NotYourFault

Con

I'm going to make this round short, because I'm going to see The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey in a little while. Also, I'd like to point out, once again, THERE WILL BE NO VOTING ON THIS DEBATE.

Smeagolian Apologetics.... Applying Apologetics to a Lord of the Rings character is the most ignorant thing I've seen in my life. If I took an IQ test before round 5 and then once again after round 5, there would be a significant decrease in IQ points. I literally lost intelligence after having read this. K?

"It is also obvious that Smeagol only values the "Precious" so much because it extends his life."

This is not true. In fact, it's absurd. Smeagol values his "Precious" (a.k.a the One Ring) because he is mortal and is helpless to the power of the Ring. As a mortal he is powerless against the will of the Rings. So any explanation of his value for the Ring besides submitting to its power is ridiculous.

"This gives Smeagol infinitely more time to use catching and subsequently eating fish all alone."

I will not deny this, but it is not because of his affinity for fish as you would claim, but because he has nothing to do besides eat fish alone.

"Deagol was dead because Smeagol killed him all for a ring and limitless fish time"

What? You're saying he knew *before* having the ring that it would giving him "limitless fish time". Do you have any idea how ignorant that is? He killed Deagol, not because he "didn't love him", but because he was once again influenced by the power of the Ring.

"It is out of this nothingness that Gollum was created"

No, it was due to the power of the Ring corrupting him that Gollum came into existence.

"Smeagol does not fish with Deagol because obviously, he prefers his current lifestyle over his previous one"

No. Maybe GOLLUM prefers this current life, but Smeagol does not. Given the choice Smeagol would choose not to be in his current situation (except having the Ring, of course). He doesn't not fish with Deagol because he prefers one lifestyle over the other, he doesn't fish with Deagol because he killed Deagol due to the power of the Ring influencing him to do so. Besides he did not have foresight. He could not have known the life he was about to create for him after killing Deagol and taking the Ring.

:. Your argument has been proven wrong at the most fundamental levels. And since you have not disproven mine, I will win this debate. (THERE WILL BE NO VOTING, ONCE AGAIN).
Debate Round No. 5
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by NotYourFault 4 years ago
NotYourFault
Sure, I'll invite people to say whp they thought won on the comment section.
Posted by HeWhoKnowsAll 4 years ago
HeWhoKnowsAll
I think you both presented your arguments well but when you put in the Ebonics gollum/smeagol debate you lost points. I understand this is suppose to be funny and I am glad you had fun but to take a great work of literary art and subject it to Ebonics has J.R.R. Tolkien rolling in his grave. Maybe another debate on the ring would be fun but don't look for winners just strive to do better each time. Hell if you lie, sound good and everyone votes for you then you can run for president!!!!!

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
Posted by Jordeef 4 years ago
Jordeef
I want to know who won, but i do not want a victor. Would u agree, Con?
Posted by Jordeef 4 years ago
Jordeef
I courteously request that Con post his rebuttal presently.
Posted by NotYourFault 4 years ago
NotYourFault
Oh no dude you're fine hahaha
Posted by HeWhoKnowsAll 4 years ago
HeWhoKnowsAll
Okay, sorry for the interruption then.
Posted by NotYourFault 4 years ago
NotYourFault
Yeah that's the obvious and most correct reason. But that would be too easy. So we both chose things that were absurd and now we run with it hahaha
Posted by HeWhoKnowsAll 4 years ago
HeWhoKnowsAll
You are all wrong. He LIKES fish and eats to sustain himself but what he loves is his precious, it never leaves his mind and if Bilbo hadn't found it Smeagol would still be happy with his precious. He didn't like the taste of orc meat but his desire to keep his precious made him stay under the lower Misty Mountains. Only the loss of his precious brought him back out into the world.
Posted by NotYourFault 4 years ago
NotYourFault
I would like to make sure everyone knows this is a joke debate and there will be no voting on this debate. Neither of us should win, it must end in a tie.
Posted by korbin_w 4 years ago
korbin_w
Jordan....i can't believe you are actually debating evan on something so elementary...
No votes have been placed for this debate.