The Instigator
Henrysmolen
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Kryptic
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

What is inherently wrong with polygamy and incest?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/7/2015 Category: Society
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 757 times Debate No: 76316
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (0)

 

Henrysmolen

Pro

In today's day and age, polygamy and incest are viewed as extremely taboo. The former is seen as sexist, and objectifies women. The latter is seen as just gross. And while I don't disagree that incest is gross, and I would never take part in it, who are we to decide who others marry?

In a free society, spouses, just like a prostitute's choice to lay with whomever they want, would have the personal freedom to wed themselves in the name of the law and of society to whomever they please, be it a family member, or to multiple wives/husbands.

I also notice a lot of inconsistency within liberals who are pro gay rights. If you believe that gays should have the right to marry and adopt, why does your position not stay consistent when it comes to multiple spouses?

I personally would never exercise any of these practices, but I do not believe it is within my rights to infringe upon somebody's freedom to marry whom they choose. Especially in this era of "freedom of choice." Gays can marry, can adopt, women can have abortions, in multiple states recreational marijuana is legal, so why draw imaginary moral boundaries where a concept stops being acceptable?

What is inherently wrong with incest and polygamy?
Kryptic

Con

I am con on this argument, however obviously my role is to answer a question and perhaps shed light on these topics.
"What is inherently wrong with polygamy and incest?"

In short... nothing. Biologically it's normal, we see many animals especially mammals not only having multiple sexual partners, but having sexual partners with offspring and relatives. During ancient times, it was common for royalty (kings) to have many prostitutes and wives. Also to keep the bloodline pure, marrying off cousins was typical also.

Lately we have found issues with it just because of how close everyone is with each other, but we would also see a similar look if a white guy married a dark girl etc.
Usually when we talk about incest where a father and daughter is involved, it is associated with paedophilia and is seen as the father some out making the girl do it. Or they're just sick...
Another issue is medically, since we are a species that procreates and will go out to look for another person to procreate with, if we don't and we keep the gene pool very close, mutations, disease and other sicknesses are easily contagious and will spread like wild fire simply due to a lack of genetic diversity.

If you put a virus into a populous, you will usually find people of similar genetics come into contact with it. If I got a strain of a flew that was 200 years old, we would all probably die, but if I got a strain from last year. we would all be immune to it. Similar things like that.

Polygamy is still accepted within some religions like mormons, but is unaccepted in todays age where everyone is looked at as equal and deserves rights. by saying you don't mind others sharing your role, you're basically saying you're not equal.

So at the end of the day, it's current morals and ethics that propose it as a bad thing. however incest has medical issues and psychological ones too.
Debate Round No. 1
Henrysmolen

Pro

Thank you for your thoughtful response. You had some interesting things to say.

Firstly, I would like to address your comment about the gene pool, and the danger of not having genetic diversity. "Another issue is medically, since we are a species that procreates and will go out to look for another person to procreate with, if we don't and we keep the gene pool very close, mutations, disease and other sicknesses are easily contagious and will spread like wild fire simply due to a lack of genetic diversity." I agree, and am very well aware of the genetic risks. However, I would like to stay away from those types of arguments, and try to debate the moral and ethical side of this. For instance: when a woman is pregnant, she can have an Endometrial Biopsy, in which a doctor tests the fluid in the uterus to determine the percent chance the baby has of developing sex linked disorders from recessive genes, which can often be severe. Whether the mother has a moral obligation to abort the baby if it turns out the baby will have a severe disorder is a different discussion, but the state will not step in and force the mother to. She can bare the baby, and the baby will live with the disorder. So why is it ok for a mother to knowingly carry to term a baby that will have a severe disorder, but not ok for family members to reproduce for fear of recessive genes manifesting?

"Polygamy is still accepted within some religions like mormons, but is unaccepted in todays age where everyone is looked at as equal and deserves rights. by saying you don't mind others sharing your role, you're basically saying you're not equal." First of all, I would like to clarify that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does NOT condone polygamy, and excommunicates communities of fundamentalist Mormons who practice polygamy. Secondly, this is a flimsy argument. If partners enter a relationship consensually, and are not FORCED to be in the relationship, then they are all equal. For a woman to marry a man, and then another man decides for himself that he will be happier married to her, while she is married to the other man, he is not unequal. This is the whole "the government has to protect you from yourself" argument. If the practice was allowed, then I believe there should accompany the law strict guidelines as to where the consent is, and that the facility in leaving the relationship was present, so people are not forced into marriages that will basically be prostitution rings, where the single is the pimp. However, if knowing, consenting adults choose to enter into marriage with each other, who are we to tell them that they cannot? And yes, there would be tax and legal issues, but ethical rights should not be barred because they are complicated to sort out.
Kryptic

Con

"I would like to clarify that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does NOT condone polygamy, and excommunicates communities of fundamentalist Mormons who practice polygamy. Secondly, this is a flimsy argument. If partners enter a relationship consensually, and are not FORCED to be in the relationship, then they are all equal."

Well firstly, I'm glad they are haha, as for your second statement.
I guess the government is made on flimsy arguments.
we should keep in mind that when a majority of all western (European) communities were settled, they all had religious morals (the good ones) in mind.
Obviously the oppression of homosexuality and people of different skin tones and regions were shunned upon. I guess the only argument to make now is that if we open all of this up to free choice.

'make incest / polygamy legal' you will probably find those who are disgusted by it and if I was to make an example of those who would be disgusted.. I don't want to make rash claims but I can forsee few types of people who would be... a woman who has been cheated on or had a partner that wanted something else (open relationship), a person who either was abused by a parent or family member, or knew one of them had an interest to do so and was repulsed by it.

Other than that. if we are talking of legal age.. I have a daughter and 16 years later say I want to marry my daughter (very extreme but for an example). Should I have the right to do so?
The moral and ethical movement I would see approaching this issue is. Did I indirectly and subconsciously force her into it?

As for polygamy, the same thing would happen, am I forcing my self on insecure woman and saying I will leave them if they don't adhere to my requests?
I suppose at the end of the day, if we can rule out these behaviours of oppression, then I honestly see no problem with it. Having an open relationship while simultaneously in a relationship with multiple women or men and loving them all in a similar way.

I don't want to say 'I have never felt that way so it can't be real'... people said that about gays for centuries.
So I guess at the end of the day, if we promote self confidence, love, kindness, appreciation, acceptance, acknowledgement, peace and balance as well as the feeling of content, fulfilment and completeness, if someone so chooses to willingly be in a relationship with multiple wives or husbands... or both.
or willing to be in a relationship with a family member. And it's not in an oppressive or forceful way. Then I don't see the bad thing.

We just can't rule out sick people with sick intentions.
There are a lot of them.
Debate Round No. 2
Henrysmolen

Pro

Thank you for your arguments.
First off, I read the comments, and you are right, this is a question with an opinion. To make this more of a concrete debate, let's say my stance is that I'm Pro Polygamy and Incest, and I want them both to be legal, and you are con both, and want both to be illegal.

I found something you said very intriguing. "I have a daughter and 16 years later say I want to marry my daughter (very extreme but for an example). Should I have the right to do so?
The moral and ethical movement I would see approaching this issue is. Did I indirectly and subconsciously force her into it?" I had never thought of this before. If you are raising a daughter that you are planning to marry once they come of age, you can brainwash them for their entire life to want to marry you. This could be a very real issue. For the sake of this argument, let's assume that all incest is not misguided, nobody is forced into it, and that it is two consenting adults. If there would be too many problems with that assumption, let's say that I concede on the fact that children shouldn't be allowed to marry their parents, and let's talk about marrying your uncles, cousins, siblings, etc. I would like to hear your response on what is ethically wrong with someone marrying their cousin. And EVEN if it is part of your religion to disapprove of incest, or it is part of your culture to look down on it, can you accept, as someone with a good understand of philosophy, morals, and ethics, that it is not your job to prevent consensual partners from entering into relationships?

"As for polygamy, the same thing would happen, am I forcing my self on insecure woman and saying I will leave them if they don't adhere to my requests?" I'm sorry, but how would this be an issue of polygamy? If this does not happen right now, why would it happen if polygamy were legal? In addition, threatening to leave a woman is NOT an act of force, and cannot be barred in any way. We have in place alimony laws for cases like this, but you cannot force someone to stay in a relationship. And "forcing myself on an insecure woman" is nobodies fault but the woman. She has full choice of whether she wants to marry someone or not, and a "threat to leave her" is not a real threat at all. But ultimately, if it's not happening now (which it is), why would it happen to a polygamous marriage?
Kryptic

Con

" To make this more of a concrete debate, let's say my stance is that I'm Pro Polygamy and Incest, and I want them both to be legal, and you are con both, and want both to be illegal."
well then that's a totally different setting and request. However, I will humbly accept.

"For the sake of this argument, let's assume that all incest is not misguided, nobody is forced into it, and that it is two consenting adults."

That's fine, just keep in mind that your original argument was a 'well if gays are legal... why not this too?', I don't see that much of a transition if we were to legalise incest and polygamy, people would be saying 'well if incest and polygamy is legal... why can't I bang and marry my 16 (sometimes 18/21 for legal reasons) daughter? ... or son?
If we are already going that far.. but you know what. lets hypothetical this bad boy.

"let's talk about marrying your uncles, cousins, siblings, etc. I would like to hear your response on what is ethically wrong with someone marrying their cousin. And EVEN if it is part of your religion to disapprove of incest, or it is part of your culture to look down on it, can you accept, as someone with a good understand of philosophy, morals, and ethics, that it is not your job to prevent consensual partners from entering into relationships?"
well. if we look at early Christianity, it was legal up until the laws were added in Leviticus / Deuteronomy / Exodus.
What is ethically wrong with it? only medical reasons, but you gave a reasonable approach to it, so other than medical reasons and that oppression reason which we have assumed is not involved... there is nothing actually wrong with it.

But again, my position before I accepted your new position was to answer the question, not say I'm against it.
But yeah.. screw it, let's do it.

I am Con (against) Polygamy and Incest...
For the sake of this argument, let's assume that all incest is not misguided, nobody is forced into it, and that it is two consenting adults...
Gays can marry, can adopt, women can have abortions, in multiple states recreational marijuana is legal, so why draw imaginary moral boundaries where a concept stops being acceptable?
What is inherently wrong with incest and polygamy?
I also notice a lot of inconsistency within liberals who are pro gay rights. If you believe that gays should have the right to marry and adopt, why does your position not stay consistent when it comes to multiple spouses?
...

You're not making this easy for a starting, final and concluding argument. But here goes... (wish me luck)

get ready....

....here it comes...

best argument ever...

I actually have nothing, I don't see anything wrong with it aside from the issues I have already addressed and we suggested it was to be put aside, now we have a new argument that essentially is "In the best case scenario, what's the worst case scenario..." well, nothing, it's fine. But again, we wouldn't be talking about that.

If a father and son or daughter or mother and son and daughter or any combination of family members decided to get together and hook up. the only thing disturbing about that is current social stigma. if a little brother kissed a little sister, it's looked at as innocent and cute, and they just don't get it.
if a grown brother and sister did it, it's weird and gross... and they should be arrested. But it's only due to a social stigma associating it. 10 years ago, if you saw 2 men kissing in public, especially black men, (just due to racism so recently). they would be shunned, and looked down on, they wouldn't be allowed in a lot of places.

Personally, I have some distant cousins that are first cousins and are married, but they never knew each other growing up and met each other later on in life. I have heard stories of the same situation happening with fathers and daughters and mothers and sons etc.
But yeah. honestly... other than social stigma and medical issues. nothing adherently wrong about it.
Although I do have a problem if it's going to be legalised. traditionally, family is looked upon to be the shield, the place of rest and relaxation, of security and safety.

If we have to watch our backs from our own family or act differently so they don't get the wrong impression (my best friend is a girl and we look like we're a couple, but we are both interested in other people. if another girl acted the same way, I would get a wrong impression, just because we are really intimate... in a non sexual way).

As for polygamy, the only issue is current relationships would have more security problems and insecurities. but not much more than they do now.

In conclusion, it's a social stigma due to being very alien.
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Preston 2 years ago
Preston
Sorry bud, im doing some rewrites to it, there are new standards, make sure you look @ them b4 u vote.
Posted by Henrysmolen 2 years ago
Henrysmolen
Preston that was an awesome spreadsheet, but vote on the actual debate!
Posted by Kryptic 2 years ago
Kryptic
this was clearly beginning with a question that had an opinion. not until later did it have direction, and at that point I was in a little over my head. at the bear minimum this debate should have ended with as tie.
I can't simply change the status of a debate mid way through that completely disregards every argument and then ask how you could argue against me. it's simply not possible.
Posted by Preston 2 years ago
Preston
Kryptic lets debate something, you can make the topic
Posted by Kryptic 2 years ago
Kryptic
it was an example, if not mormoms, then a religious sect of Christianity either have accepted or do accept multiple partners
Posted by Preston 2 years ago
Preston
Just FYI mormons do not practice polygamy, in fact thats one way to get excommunicated.
Posted by ohreally 2 years ago
ohreally
Hello sir, I saw the gist of your question and it made a concrete debatable perspective. I think that what you need to debate about with kryptic is whether or not, cousins should marry despite countries that has repressive force with the matter due to the current norms of the society on that particular country to partake with the cousin marriages dilemmas (because most of what I am hearing are the dilemmas in marrying your cousins . I am looking forward to see another debate with the above-mentioned matter with you two :3
Posted by Kryptic 2 years ago
Kryptic
and besides, didn't want to give too much away for my conclusion
Posted by Kryptic 2 years ago
Kryptic
to be fair, this was a question with an opinion, not a debate
No votes have been placed for this debate.