The Instigator
Bible13
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
Cold-Mind
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

What is the true faith? I am a Jehovah's Witness.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Cold-Mind
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/7/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 811 times Debate No: 56215
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (7)
Votes (2)

 

Bible13

Pro

I am a Jehovah's Witness, and very satisfied with my faith. I believe the true faith should be genuine, based on facts, and able to stand to scrutiny. I'd gladly have a pleasant and non offensive debate about what is the truth with anyone of any other faith. For the introduction I expect to see the answer to the following questions:

1) What is your faith?
2) Has that always been your faith?
3) Why do you believe it to be the truth?
Cold-Mind

Con

1) I am an atheist
2) No, I was deist before
3) I believe all religions are made up solely by humans, without good arguments to support them. Therefore atheism is more genuine, based on facts and able to stand scrutiny.

I am very familiar with Jehovah's witness' teaching, so I will try to point out its flaws.
Debate Round No. 1
Bible13

Pro

1) As you already know, I am a Jehovah's Witness.
2) I was born in a Jehovah's Witness family. My dad, on the other hand, was born in an atheist place in Cuba. He didn't deny a God, but he didn't know anything about him or if he cared about us.
3) My dad found a Bible on his university bed, read it, and shortly after was visited by Jehovah's Witnesses. We both came to the same conclusion after studying it. There is no other book as extraordinary as the Bible, and Jehovah's Witnesses have the truth found in the Bible.

Con claims "religions are made up solely by humans, without good arguments to support them." What exactly makes atheism "more genuine, based on facts and able to stand to scrutiny"? How are you familiar with Jehovah's Witnesses? And what exactly are their flaws?

I thank my adversary for his response, and look forward to his answers.
Cold-Mind

Con

Widest universe = All matter + time + space + laws of nature

1) Saying that Jehovah created widest universe is contradiction in itself. "created" implies it is in the past (in the time). Time can not be measured(perceived) without matter moving trough the space. Therefore, it is only logical to assume either:
- At the first moment of time matter was already moving trough space.
- There wasn't first moment of time, matter was always circulating trough the space.
In either case, matter is not created. It always was.

2) You believe Jesus is Jehovah's son. But Jews at the time of Jesus didn't. They considered Jesus to be human prophet. Statement that Jesus is Jehovah's son was developed by Christian church (which was founded on year 313.)

3) There is no valid criteria for who goes to heaven on earth.

4) Reviving all humans that died is not beneficial for the universe. Idea of afterlife is developed by humans who disliked idea that they will die someday.

5) If there will be no evil, we will all be beautiful, we will be more intelligent, and we will not have memories of very bad things, what makes us in the heaven on earth - us?

If my opponent answers these, I will point out more flaws of Jehovah witness' teaching. Except answering, I will invite my opponent to point out flaws of atheism, if any.
Debate Round No. 2
Bible13

Pro

Con here has made many interesting claims. Let's briefly consider them.

"Saying that Jehovah created the widest universe is a contradiction in itself"

Following this statement came a very strangely worded explanation. What I do know is that the origin of this complex time and space continuum obviously could not be limited by time or space. This can not be said about matter or the Big Bang as it had a beginning, and what begins must have something causing it to begin. It can be said about Jehovah, though. He had no beginning, and will have no end; he is not limited by time or space because these are characteristics of the physical universe he created.

"Statement that Jesus is Jehovah's son was developed by Christian Church (which was founded on year 313.)"

Where do you get this from? It is very clear that Jesus is the son of God in the ancient manuscripts of the Greek Scriptures. The books of the apostle John were the last scriptures written, and they were completed on the year 98, centuries before the Christian Church you speak of was found!

"There is no valid criteria for who goes to heaven on earth"

If by "heaven on earth" you mean this Earth made a paradise when Jehovah's kingdom is established, there actually is.

Matthew 24:13 - But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.

He that endure to the end will benefit from God's kingdom on Earthly paradise. To the end doing what?

Matthew 7:21 -
Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.

To the end doing the will of our Father in heaven. That will is very clear in Jehovah's word, the Bible. You don't know it? Study it with Jehovah's Witnesses. You can request the Bible studies here: https://www.jw.org...

"Reviving all humans that died is not beneficial for the universe. Idea of afterlife is developed by humans who disliked idea that they will die someday."

This is just your opinion, and MANY disagree with it. Many of us would like to see our dead loved ones again and live with them eternally on the perfect peaceful Earthly paradise. This does not harm the universe in any way, and it was not a human developed idea. It is what Jehovah promised, and his will is always fulfilled.

"If there will be no evil, we will all be beautiful, we will be more intelligent, and we will not have memories of very bad things, what makes us in the heaven on earth - us?"

No evil and no bad memories means no suffering, which means we will still be humans, but we will enjoy eternal happiness, which is God's purpose for humanity. Different humans have different definitions of beauty. We will still look like ourselves but without the imperfections. For instance, I will not need glasses anymore! Our perfection will not make us more intelligent, but our ability to learn will be perfect. We will learn things a lot faster, but we will always keep learning.

Now the atheists' flaw. In can be summarized in the following way, you are like the person that makes the outrageous claim that unicorns exist! Perhaps this idea can not be disproved, but it's not what we see; it's not what the evidence suggests.

Hebrews 3:4 - "For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything." Simple, but powerful. This is simply what we observe, and if you are going to assume it was any different with the universe and life, then you should give proof, but you can't. Many including Ozzyhead, another user I am debating, admit: "It's outrageous for me to claim that something does not exist because it's impossible to prove such a claim, and no one should make such a claim." This makes atheism a faith no better than those religions that "are made up solely by humans, without good arguments to support them".

I eagerly await my oponent's response.




Cold-Mind

Con

Q1) I don't know what "complex time and space continuum" is, I don't understand what it means to be limited by time and space, and I would an explanation.

Q2) How did my opponent came up with statement "matter had a beginning"? As far as I know Big bang is a theory, and theories do not have a beginning.

Q3) Except "physical" universe, what other kinds of universe are there?

Sources for my statement about Jesus not originally being the son of God: http://en.wikipedia.org...'s_view_of_Jesus
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

I will use phrase "heaven on earth", I believe it is the same thing as "earthly paradise".

Q4) No one does "will of my father" all the time, and no one never does "will of my father". How much should one do "will of my father" in order to enter heaven on earth?

R1) Let me rephrase that one. I am saying that nothing except humans will have benefit from reviving dead humans. Reviving itself is not harmful, but in order for humans to be immortal, many laws of nature have to be changed. Everything we know disintegrates over time, even the stars.

R2) Ability to learn can not be perfect, it can always better, unless we know everything. Learning speed is included in intelligence, so you contradicted yourself, by saying we will not be more intelligent but will learn faster.

R3) I never claimed that unicorns exist, or anything like that.

R4) Rules that apply to what is in universe(house) are not applied to universe as well. For simplified example, if there is a water resistant box, and inside of it are: pen, letter and coin; Rule "It must be redrawn form the box in order to become surrounded by water" applies to pen, letter and coin, but does not apply to the box itself.

R5) Negative atheism is not made up by humans, it is default position they are in when they are born.

R6) I do not claim that some form of deity doesn't exist, I claim that the way Jehovah is described in the bible doesn't make sense.

6) Jesus supposedly turned water into the wine and walked on water. If he could really do such miracles, people would actually believe in legitimacy of his claims, and would not execute him.

7) Since my opponent claimed that Jehovah's will is always fulfilled, that means Jehovah did not wish for murder, rape, hunger and diseases to stop (yet).
Debate Round No. 3
Bible13

Pro

To begin this round I will clarify some things for the benefit of Con and the audience. The time and space continuum is a mathematical model that combines space and time into a single idea, the universe. What ever caused the universe to exist, therefore, could not have required time or space. Jehovah was not limited by time because he created it; he had no beginning or end. He was not limited by physical space either because he is spiritual. In addition to the physical universe, there is also heaven, the spiritual dimension where Jehovah and the angels are.

"How much should one do "will of my father" in order to enter heaven on earth?"

In the Bible there are principles that, because of inherited sin, we can not keep perfectly, but can still be kept. Fornication, for instance. We may have some negative thoughts because of imperfection, but we can still keep the principle. We must strive to do God's will to the best of our abilities to the end, and then we will be saved, like Matthew 24:13 says.

"in order for humans to be immortal, many laws of nature have to be changed."

Humans will not be immortal, but they will not have to die. For instance, because of our perfection and God"s protection, nobody will die from age, disease, or unforeseen events. In order for this to happen, all God has to do, and will do, is remove imperfection.

"you contradicted yourself, by saying we will not be more intelligent but will learn faster."

How exactly did I contradict myself? You could have a lower IQ (Intelligence Quotient or how fast you learn) and still know more than someone with a higher IQ. Our intelligence will never be absolutely perfect, because absolute perfection is a quality only Jehovah has. Everything else has a relative perfection that has to do with his purpose for his creation. The moment we become perfect we will not become all-knowing or even a little bit more intelligent. Our intelligence quotient will increase, so we will learn things faster. But before gaining any new knowledge, we have to seek for it. And we will never reach absolute knowledge. That"s a good thing. We will not be bored as there will be new things to discover, plenty to learn about our creator and his creation.

"I never claimed that unicorns exist, or anything like that."

Yes you did, and I explained pretty clearly. Reread my explanation from the previous round.

"atheism is not made up by humans, it is default position they are in when they are born."

Atheism is the faith that there is no God, and one is not born with any faith. One is born with lack of knowledge, and accepts the faith he is surrounded by, usually until considering new evidence that suggests another truth.

" I do not claim that some form of deity doesn't exist, I claim that the way Jehovah is described in the bible doesn't make sense."

What biblical description of Jehovah doesn't make sense?

"Jehovah did not wish for murder, rape, hunger and diseases to stop (yet)."

I thought you were very familiar with Jehovah"s Witnesses! I will give a brief answer and provide a link with a more detailed answer for the benefit of the audience.

First of all, it is important to understand God does not cause the suffering in the world.
Job 34:10 - "So listen to me, you men of understanding:It is unthinkable for the true God to act wickedly, for the Almighty to do wrong!"

Why do we suffer? The Bible clearly states: "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." (1 John 5:19). A second reason why there is so much suffering is that mankind has been imperfect and sinful ever since the rebellion in the garden of Eden. Sinful humans tend to struggle for dominance, and this results in wars, oppression, and suffering. (Ecclesiastes 4:1). A third reason for suffering is "time and unforeseen occurrence." (Ecclesiastes 9:11). In a world without Jehovah as a protective Ruler, people may suffer because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
By calling God a liar and saying that He withholds good from His subjects, Satan questioned Jehovah"s right to rule. (Genesis 3:2-5).

Consider two things that Jehovah has determined not to do. First, he has not stopped Satan and those who side with him from trying to prove that they are right. Allowing time to pass has thus been necessary. In the thousands of years of human history, mankind has been able to try every form of self-rule, or human government. Mankind has made some advances in science and other fields, but injustice, poverty, crime, and war have grown ever worse. Human rule has now been shown to be a failure. Second, Jehovah has not helped Satan to rule this world. If God were to prevent horrible crimes, for instance, would he not, in effect, be supporting the case of the rebels? Would God not be making people think that perhaps humans can govern themselves without disastrous results?

Jehovah will use his Son, the Ruler of the Messianic Kingdom, to end all human suffering and to undo its effects. (1 John 3:8).

http://www.jw.org...

To conclude, I will explain why the Jews rejected the Messiah.

The common belief among the Jews in those days was that the Messiah would come and liberate them from the oppressive Roman yoke and restore the earthly kingdom of Israel. Before Jesus began his ministry, a number of charismatic leaders arose and advocated violent resistance to the existing political rule. What these men did likely influenced the people"s expectations of the Messiah.

Jesus stood in stark contrast to such false Messiahs. He did not promote violence but taught his listeners to love their enemies and to be submissive to the authorities. He rejected the people"s efforts to make him a king. Instead, he taught that his kingdom was to be "no part of this world." Still, preconceived ideas about the Messiah exerted a very strong influence on the people.

Upon entering Jerusalem shortly before Passover 33 C.E., Jesus was welcomed by enthusiastic crowds hailing him as King. How quickly the situation changed! Within the week, Jesus was arrested and executed. After Jesus" death, two of his disciples lamented: "We were hoping that this man was the one destined to deliver Israel." Even when the resurrected Jesus appeared to his disciples, the idea that the Messiah would establish an earthly kingdom still lingered. They asked: "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?" Clearly, mistaken expectations about the Messiah were deeply entrenched in the hearts and minds of Jesus" listeners. After Jesus" ascension to heaven and the outpouring of the holy spirit, his disciples came to understand clearly that the Messiah would rule as a heavenly King. The apostles Peter and John boldly preached about Jesus" resurrection and gave evidence of God"s backing by performing miracles themselves. ands in Jerusalem responded and became believers. This, however, did not sit well with the Jewish authorities. Just as they had opposed Jesus, they now opposed his apostles and disciples.

By the time Jesus came to earth, Jewish religious thinking and practices had strayed far from what was taught in the inspired Scriptures. The religious leaders of the day (the Sadducees, Pharisees, and scribes) upheld man-made traditions, putting them ahead of God"s written Word. Time and again they accused Jesus of breaking the Law because he performed miraculous cures on the Sabbath. By forcefully refuting their unscriptural teachings, Jesus challenged both their authority and their claims of having an approved standing with God. By contrast, Jesus came from a humble background and lacked their formal religious education. No wonder it was so difficult for such proud men to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah! Such confrontations so enraged them that they "took counsel against [Jesus] that they might destroy him."

How, though, could the religious leaders explain away Jesus" ability to perform miracles? They did not deny that the miracles occurred. Instead, they blasphemously tried to undermine faith in Jesus by attributing his power to Satan, saying: "This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons."

There was another deep-seated reason for their adamant refusal to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah. After Jesus resurrected Lazarus, leaders of the various religious factions consulted together and said: "What are we to do, because this man performs many signs? If we let him alone this way, they will all put faith in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation." For fear of losing their power and position, the religious leaders conspired to kill both Jesus and Lazarus!

Well, I have addressed all of the "flaws" Con claims Jehovah's Witnesses to have. Hebrews 3:4 - "For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything." Simple, but powerful. This is simply what we observe. Anyone who claims it was any different with the universe and life is going against what we observe; what the evidence REALLY shows, and is therefore expected to give evidence. I still await for a valid answer to my challenge.
Cold-Mind

Con

I believe my opponent did not answer my questions and rebut my arguments well; So for the sake of not bothering the reader with excessive text, I will pass this round.
Debate Round No. 4
Bible13

Pro

Con has passed the round, clearly not because I have not answered his questions or rebut his arguments well, but because he realized there are no real flaws with the Jehovah's Witness faith. I have defended it, and proven it to be genuine, based on facts, and able to stand to scrutiny. Con, on the other hand, does not give any evidence for his outrageous claim of "unicorns" (that there is no God).
Cold-Mind

Con

Dear voters, please read carefully entire debate before voting.
Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Burncastle 3 years ago
Burncastle
There is a "not" in my RFD that should not be there...
Posted by Bible13 3 years ago
Bible13
A cult is a religion that is said to be unorthodox or that emphasizes devotion according to prescribed ritual. Many cults follow a living human leader, and often their adherents live in groups apart from the rest of society. The standard for what is orthodox, however, should be God"s Word, and Jehovah"s Witnesses strictly adhere to the Bible. Their worship is a way of life, not a ritual devotion. They neither follow a human nor isolate themselves from the rest of society. They live and work in the midst of other people.

PS. Hell is not biblical. Actually read the Bible ;)
Posted by LeDebate 3 years ago
LeDebate
PS. that means Jehovah's witness peeps go to hell
Posted by LeDebate 3 years ago
LeDebate
Jehovah's witness is a cult listen to some christian debaters and this BS will stop
Posted by Geogeer 3 years ago
Geogeer
@dmussi12 - too late...
Posted by Bible13 3 years ago
Bible13
Atheists are allowed too. We all have faith, and that is fine when our faith is genuine, based on facts, and can stand to scrutiny, like I've said many times before.
Posted by dmussi12 3 years ago
dmussi12
I'm assuming this is for religious people only. If so you should change the rules to the debate so it doesn't turn into an 'is there a god' debate.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Nicoszon_the_Great 3 years ago
Nicoszon_the_Great
Bible13Cold-MindTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro's arguments mainly consisted of using a single document to explain how excellent the subject of that document is. Most of the extra sources given by pro were analysis of that document. Therefor, the pro requires the audience to take his word, or rather the word of men long dead, and trust it because the bible tells me so rather than using genuine scientific or logical evidence to explain 1) the existence of his god, 2) the legitimacy of that god's power over us, 3) and a compelling reason why we sentient creatures should follow him at all. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Vote Placed by Burncastle 3 years ago
Burncastle
Bible13Cold-MindTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:12 
Reasons for voting decision: I give conduct to Pro because it would seem that Con did not bother to read Pro's final argument and decided not to address it. I was also going to give arguments to Pro until I read "atheism is the faith that there is no God", which completely false. I give sources to Con because, although his sources may not be the most reliable, I consider them more reliable than the Bible. As a side note, I would point out to Con that this debate was not probably not intended for atheists, but for other people of faith (since atheism is not a faith-based position).