What is the true religion?
Debate Rounds (5)
I am a Jehovah's Witness, and will be debating that what Jehovah's Witnesses have is, indeed, the truth. In this debate, one may argue that his religion is the true religion or that there is no true religion. Round 1 is acceptance (also specify what you will be debating). Thank you.
how can I separate without information, and how can religion exist without god, how can god exist without religion, when religion is god and god is information
0=false and truth=imagination and memory=future and past
the true religion, is belief, as know is true and religion is false
I can at best believe what others tell me, as I cant know imagination, and I cant believe in reality, as know is real/true and belief is false
know=physical experience of now=sensory experience=matter=now=true
to argue honestly for what I don't know is true, means I am lying to myself
I know(physically experience) I am typing these words on my keyboard and reading them on my sceen, I can imagine and believe what my neighbor is doing
to understand this, you must understand what god is. to control what others believe is to be their god, so the stories I imagine from reading the bible is god, but the bible is god as well, like anyone informing you what to believe, the tv, books, internet, a world creator, and the only way for god to control your entire being, all you have to do, is believe
creation only happens in the mind, and the mind is nothing, like 0 bananas
Con believes that only what we've experienced in the past, experience now in the present, and will experience in the future is true. Anything outside of that is belief, and belief is a lie.
Well, we certainly agree there are things of which we can be absolutely certain. We are sure of our own existence and of the existence of the objects that surround us such as trees, mountains, clouds, the sun, the moon, etc.
There are also natural laws. Of these, we can be absolutely certain. If you jump off a cliff; you will fall. You don't need to experience this specific event to know it is true. And you do not wonder if some natural laws hold true for some but not for others. They apply to all mankind. For this reason they are said to be universal.
The Bible mentions one such universal law when it asks, "Can a man rake together fire into his bosom and yet his very garments not be burned?" When this was written, it was universally true that clothing would burn if brought into contact with fire. However, when stating this fact, the Bible was making a bigger point. That “anyone having [sexual] relations with the wife of his fellowman” will suffer the adverse consequences. Proverbs 6:27, 29.
Is that statement an absolute truth of which we can be certain? Some would say no. They believe morals are personal, that they depend on one's beliefs or perceptions. But consider a few of God’s moral laws as found in the Bible. Are these not universal truths?
The Bible condemns adultery (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10). Some people do not accept this Bible precept as truth, and they practice adultery. Still, even they generally suffer the bitter consequences, which often include a troubled conscience, divorce, and deep emotional scars for all concerned.
The Bible also condemns drunkenness (Proverbs 23:20; Ephesians 5:18). What happens when people practice it? In many cases they lose their job, their health, and their family, who also suffer emotionally. Such consequences come even to those who do not believe that drunkenness is wrong. Does the truthfulness of these moral laws appear to be relative to the beliefs or perceptions of each individual?
And what about the Bible's positive moral commands such as the commands to love one’s wife, to respect one’s husband, and to do good to others (Matthew 7:12; Ephesians 5:33)? Observing these commands brings beneficial results. Would you argue that such moral counsel is good for some but not for others?
Absolute truth exists, and it is not limited by what we have experienced in the past, experience now in the present, or will experience in the future. Either God exists or he doesn't. He is only one, or a triune God. He is the most loving being in existence, or sends people to suffer in hell. Is this absolute religious truth attainable?
Shortly before he was killed, Jesus told Roman Governor Pontius Pilate: “Everyone that is on the side of the truth listens to my voice.” Pilate responded, “What is truth?” (John 18:37, 38). Jesus, unashamedly spoke of the truth. He did not doubt its existence. For example, consider these four statements that Jesus made to various people:
“For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth.” (John 18:37).
“I am the way and the truth and the life.” (John 14:6).
“God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:23, 24).
“If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:31, 32).
Since Jesus spoke so confidently of truth and of coming to know it, shouldn’t we at least examine the possibility that religious truth exists and that it can be found?
Thank you. I eagerly await Con's response.
true=personal physical experience of now
false=anywhere beyond my personal physical experience of now
now=reality loop 1 second or less
cause and effect is absolute: cause+effect=logic(cause and effect is logic)
so if I jump off a cliff and fall, the cause is I jumped, and the effect is I fall
logic is absolute
logic+experience=reason(the concept of logic)
natural cause=random(not intended)
moral is guided by logic:
if all apples became poisonous today, and we were all ware of it, would it then be right to give kids apples if we wanted them to be healthy(logic)? and even if we didn't want them to be healthy, would it be right to give kids apples(personal moral)?
I have no beliefs, I know my experience of now
truth is memory, morality is contrasting others with self using thought and emotion, moral is not true, but most logic is true(emotion is effect, and thought is cause, mental logic)
absolute=no other option=existence
so truth is absolute, like false and true, that's why I know imagination is false for example, I know I cant have memory of the future so truth can only be in the past
anything that is created has a beginning, and matter is eternal, so god didn't create everything, the fore god is just a stories, and stories are not real
Matter may not be created or destroyed, but you can not prove it was not created at some point in the past or that God is just a story that is not real.
You say cause and effect is absolute. So, what was the cause of this complex orderly universe? Certainly it would be unreasonable to give the credit to some random explosion! Think about it. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules. What is even more surprising is that it abides by rules of mathematics! The universe doesn't have to behave this way. One could easily imagine a random universe with constant unpredictable conditions, and even things popping in and out of existence, coming from such a random explosion. However, this is not the case. Here are two interesting quotes to think about:
“The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is so comprehensible.” - Albert Einstein
“Why nature is mathematical is a mystery [...] The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle.” - Richard Feynman
You know very well that if you jump off a cliff you will fall. How do you know? Have you actually jumped off a cliff? Probably not. But you surely have witnessed gravity. Well, we have witnessed design as the result of an intelligent designer. Consider the following examples from the Jehovah's Witness Brochure "Was Life Created?":
(BEGINNING OF QUOTE)
If the copy requires a designer, what about the original?
Man-made product: Kevlar is a tough man-made fiber used in such items as bulletproof vests. To manufacture Kevlar, high temperatures and hazardous solvents are required.
Natural product: Orb-weaving spiders produce seven types of silk. The sturdiest, known as dragline silk, is lighter than cotton yet, ounce for ounce, is stronger than steel and tougher than Kevlar. If enlarged to the size of a football field, a web of dragline silk 0.4 inch thick with strands 1.6 inches apart could stop a jumbo jet in flight! Spiders produce dragline silk at room temperature, using water as a solvent.
Man-made product: Some commercial airliners have computerized autopilot systems that can not only guide a plane from one country to another but also land the plane. The computer used in one experimental autopilot system is about the size of a credit card.
Natural product: Using a brain the size of the tip of a ballpoint pen, the monarch butterfly migrates up to 1,800 miles from Canada to a small patch of forest in Mexico. This butterfly relies on the sun to help it navigate, and it has the ability to compensate for the movement of the sun across the sky.
Man-made product: Engineers have developed an artificial compound eye that fits 8,500 lenses into a space the size of a pinhead. Such lenses could be used in high-speed motion detectors and ultrathin multidirectional cameras.
Natural product: Each eye of a dragonfly is made up of some 30,000 lenses. These lenses produce images that combine to create a wide mosaic view. The compound eyes of the dragonfly are superb at detecting movement.
(END OF QUOTE)
The design in nature is evidence of an intelligent creator, and we see his power in his word the Bible. Consider these specific Bible prophecies and how they fulfilled in history:
(BEGINNING OF QUOTE)
Prophecy: Prophecy: Isaiah 44:24, 27, 28; 45:1-4: "Jehovah . . . the One saying to the watery deep, "Be evaporated; and all your rivers I shall dry up"; the One saying of Cyrus, "He is my shepherd, and all that I delight in he will completely carry out"; even in my saying of Jerusalem, "She will be rebuilt," and of the temple, "You will have your foundation laid." This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations, so that I may ungird even the hips of kings; to open before him the two-leaved doors, so that even the gates will not be shut: "Before you I myself shall go, and the swells of land I shall straighten out. The copper doors I shall break in pieces, and the iron bars I shall cut down. . . . For the sake of my servant Jacob and of Israel my chosen one, I even proceeded to call you by your name."" (Writing by Isaiah was completed by about 732 B.C.E.)
Fulfillment: Cyrus had not been born when the prophecy was written. The Jews were not taken into exile to Babylon until 617-607 B.C.E., and Jerusalem and its temple were not destroyed until 607 B.C.E. In detail the prophecy was fulfilled starting in 539 B.C.E. Cyrus diverted the waters of the Euphrates River into an artificial lake, the river gates of Babylon were carelessly left open during feasting in the city, and Babylon fell to the Medes and Persians under Cyrus. Thereafter, Cyrus liberated the Jewish exiles and sent them back to Jerusalem with instructions to rebuild Jehovah"s temple there."The Encyclopedia Americana (1956), Vol. III, p. 9; Light From the Ancient Past (Princeton, 1959), Jack Finegan, pp. 227-229; "All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial" (New York, 1983), pp. 282, 284, 295.
Prophecy: Jeremiah 49:17, 18: ""Edom must become an object of astonishment. Everyone passing along by her will stare in astonishment and whistle on account of all her plagues. Just as in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and her neighbor towns," Jehovah has said, "no man will dwell there."" (Jeremiah"s recording of prophecies was completed by 580 B.C.E.)
Fulfillment: "They [the Edomites] were driven from Palestine in the 2nd century B.C. by Judas Maccab"us, and in 109 B.C. John Hyrcanus, Maccab"an leader, extended the kingdom of Judah to include the w. part of Edomitic lands. In the 1st century B.C. Roman expansion swept away the last vestige of Edomitic independence . . . After the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. . . . the name Idum"a [Edom] disappeared from history." (The New Funk Wagnalls Encyclopedia, 1952, Vol. 11, p. 4114) Notice that the fulfillment extends down to our day. In no way can it be argued that this prophecy was written after the events had taken place.
Prophecy: Luke 19:41-44; 21:20, 21: "He [Jesus Christ] viewed the city [Jerusalem] and wept over it, saying: . . . "The days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and p. 62they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected."" Two days later, he counseled his disciples: "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw." (Prophecy spoken by Jesus Christ in 33 C.E.)
Fulfillment: Jerusalem revolted against Rome, and in 66 C.E. the Roman army under Cestius Gallus attacked the city. But, as Jewish historian Josephus reports, the Roman commander "suddenly called off his men, abandoned hope though he had suffered no reverse, and flying in the face of all reason retired from the City." (Josephus, the Jewish War, Penguin Classics, 1969, p. 167) This provided opportunity for Christians to flee from the city, which they did, moving to Pella, beyond the Jordan, according to Eusebius Pamphilus in his Ecclesiastical History. (Translated by C. F. Crus", London, 1894, p. 75) Then around Passover time of the year 70 C.E. General Titus besieged the city, an encircling fence 4.5 miles (7.2 km) long was erected in just three days, and after five months Jerusalem fell. "Jerusalem itself was systematically destroyed and the Temple left in ruins. Archaeological work shows us today just how effective was the destruction of Jewish buildings all over the land.""The Bible and Archaeology (Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1962), J. A. Thompson, p. 299. (END OF QUOTE)
What more evidence do you need? Jehovah is literally showing off his power in his creation and right there in his word the Bible! It would be unreasonable to deny God exists. But I also said I would debate that what Jehovah's Witnesses have is, indeed, the truth.
There is only one absolute truth, either there are many acceptable ways to worship God or only one. The Bible, unlike other books of religion, gives evidence of divine inspiration and does not agree with the modern view that there are many acceptable ways to worship God. Ephesians 4:5 says there is “one Lord, one faith.” Jesus stated: “Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it [...] Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.” (Matthew 7:13, 14, 21).
Because we Jehovah’s Witnesses base all of our beliefs, our standards for conduct, and organizational procedures on the Bible, our faith in the Bible itself as God’s Word gives us the conviction that what we have is, indeed, the truth. So our position is not egotistical but demonstrates our confidence that the Bible is the right standard against which to measure one’s religion.
Thank you. I once again await eagerly for Con's response.
anything that is created has a beginning, and matter is eternal, eternal is no beginning and no end(matter can not be created to be beginning less)
the cause of existence, is existence. without everything there can be no source, so the source is everything
eternal=no beginning and no end
I know gravity, I don't have to imagine it, and I know I have weight so I know I will fall if I jump, logic is true. I have plenty memory of how reality works and my physical experience is the true confirmation
original dosnt need a designer, as nature must come first and nature is the origin of life
natural is random, and intent is specified, and nature is natural therefore its not created
as I said, truth is absolute, like anything else, but you have to imagine god, so its a belief, you have no knowledge of god, imagination
The idea I was trying to project through my statement is that now matter is not created or destroyed, but you can't prove it wasn't created at some point.
Why do you say original doesn't need a designer? A little kid could make a drawing of a car based on the more complex original, the actual car made by the engineer. Notice how as the creation is more complex, the greater intelligence is needed? You could probably draw a car, but not construct a real one. And certainly, no human on earth has the intelligence or power to make such a vast, complex, and orderly universe like this one or even to make a simple cell!
I don't have to imagine God. I have knowledge of him because I have studied his word the Bible, and seen for myself there is no word like it. The fulfilled prophecies I previously showed you are evidence that the Bible was, indeed, inspired by God.
I mis spoke, I meant natural dosnt have a designer sorry, but in a way original goes to natural, so im right :D
to argue supernature or mechanical comes before natural is false, nature must come first, as for eksample super nature is in contrast with nature, like superman, and ghosts(imagination)
m8, nature is easily a billion times more advanced then anything mechanical, machine is a copy of nature, like the camera is a reflection of myself in the form of an eye
you have no memory of god, its imaginary, so its a belief system, and belief is religion, you would agree you re in a religion right? if god was truth in any way.. it would not be religion
Sorry, but this is not the kind of debate I wanted to win. I wanted a serious conversation, not so many strange and meaningless equations. I have already proven my point, really. There's nothing else to debate until Con makes some real arguments. :)
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