What was Germany's worst ally Italy(pro) or Japan(con)?
round 1:acception and reasoning
round 2:starting argue
round 3,4:main arguement
round 5: closing arguement
Germany chose bad allies in World War 2, and Japan was a worse ally in my opinion.
(All three axis power made tremendous strategic mistakes, though)
Before getting started let me define some of the criteria I will use to determine who has been worse :
- Directly responsible for German losses (both men and material) --> They actually killed Germans.
- Indirectly responsible for German losses --> Their failure to achieve common objectives increased German losses
- Failure to communicate their intentions effectively to their allies.
- Total contribution to war effort
My first reason is that japan never notified germany they were going to attack Pearl Harbor.
Italy was not prepared at all for major military operations
1) Italians were supposed to secure the Balkans before Operation Barbarossa could be effectively launched.
However after disembarking in Greece Italian troops stalled. Germany had to divert troops in the region.
Also after Yugoslavian coup Germany could not trust Italy to occupy Yugoslavia alone and therefore had to intervene directly.
The Balkan Campaign delayed operation Barbarossa by several weeks. This was crucial in the final outcome. All these delays contributed to the Soviet ability to gather more troops and probably prevented the German from seizing Moscow before winter 1941.
2) Italians had to invade Egypt in order to seize the Suez Canal. Not only they failed to do so they were countered, lost territory and desperately needed the assistance of DAK (Afrika Korps).
3) Mussolini was removed from power in July 1943 by his political opponents. Italian Kingdom negotiated and signed a secret armistice with allied forces. The armistice was made public the 8th of September. Germans felt betrayed and occupied Italy
After operation Achse only 197,000 Italian soldiers of the over 1 million disarmed continued the war alongside the Germans"
My point is that if Italians instead of surrendering had fought with half of Japanese determination, the Italian front could have resisted allied advance. While Germany could focus on the other fronts.
"My first reason is that Japan never notified Germany they were going to attack Pearl Harbor."
I do agree that this caused prejudice to Germany. However it was Hitler who declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor... He didn't have to do it. It was an impulsive move... but no one dared to contradict the Fuhrer !
Hitler declared in hopes Japan would attack the USSR. Russia moved a large majority their tanks and solders east to deal with Germany because Japan was more concerned with the USA at the start. If Japan surprise invaded the USSR at the same time Germany did it could have a different impact on Russia.
1) Well yes, this is a very good point. However this was in December 1941. By then the war on the Eastern front had already stalled because of the harsh weather conditions.
"The temperature dropped far below freezing. On 30 November, von Bock reported to Berlin that the temperature was –45 °C (–49 °F).General Erhard Raus, commander of the 6th Panzer Division, kept track of the daily mean temperature in his war diary. It shows a suddenly much colder period during 4–7 December: from –36 to –38 °C (–37 to –38 °F).Other temperature reports varied widely. Zhukov said that November's freezing weather stayed around –7 to –10 °C (+19 to +14 °F) Official Soviet Meteorological Service records show the lowest December temperature reached –28.8 °C (–20 °F). The absolute numbers did not matter to the German troops who were freezing with no winter clothing, and whose equipment was not designed for such severe weather. More than 130,000 cases of frostbite were reported among German soldiers. Frozen grease had to be removed from every loaded shell and vehicles had to be heated for hours before use. The same cold weather, typical for the season, hit the Soviet troops, but they were better prepared. The Axis offensive on Moscow stopped."
2) Yes, Germany and Japan lacked coordination and communication. But this is not entirely Japan's fault.
Hitler expected Japan to attack the USSR, however they did not made any previous agreement or common plan.
Japan unlike Italy had no obligation towards Germany to fulfill certain objectives.
volcan forfeited this round.
sorry school stuff happened that prevented me last round
japan failed to keep the usa busy enough in the pacific to help germany
"japan failed to keep the usa busy enough in the pacific to help germany"
This may be true but as I said Germany had not any obligation to declare war to the US in the first place (Japan did not requested it either).
I will also remind my 2 main arguments :
1) Operation Barbarossa delays caused about 3 milions extra german deaths in the Eastern Front between 1942 and 1945. In fact if the USSR had collapsed before december 1941 the final outcome of the war could have changed drastically. Italy was responsible for almost 5 crucial weeks of delay (by failing to secure the Balkans on its own).
2) The Italian signing the armistice in 1943 left the Axis with about 800.000 men less (In fact most Italian units were disarmed and disbanded). Germany had to spread its own troops across the Balkans and Italy to replace these disbanded units.
Finally, I thank my opponent for the debate.
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