The Instigator
AKMath
Con (against)
The Contender
backwardseden
Pro (for)

Where did God come from? A dream, a lie, and an explanation

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/4/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 507 times Debate No: 116285
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (8)
Votes (0)

 

AKMath

Con

I put five round so just copy and paste your other argument into the box and we can begin. P.S. this was the only way I could find to debate you on this topic.
backwardseden

Pro

Taken from "The Atheist Republic"
Where did god come from? To Atheist Republic contributor Dean Van Drasek, the answer is simple: a dream, a lie, and an explanation.

You may have come across this topic in books and articles about religion, psychology, anthropology, philosophy, comparative mythology/religion, archeology, and even popular science books. Sadly, there is no answer, as it's buried in the depths of time before humans developed writing, and probably even before there was cave painting. I am not an expert in any of these fields, but I do have some ideas that I find more persuasive than others. Nothing here is original, and it's been picked from a wide variety of sources.

Intelligence in apes seems to be linked to brain size, at least when cross-referenced with technological accomplishments. Hominid's brains in the genus homo developed slowly until about 200,000 years ago. This marked the arrival of our species of hominid, homo sapiens. I suspect that the belief in the supernatural may have been as early as this.

Every human society ever discovered has had some belief in the supernatural. So where does this come from? The answer I find most persuasive is because we, like other animals, dream, but we had the intelligence to question what was the source for this experience.

The origin of gods lies in the belief in spirits, which is the belief that the experience of the mind in dreams was an externally originated experience. Many early cultures (which we know about through their written records) did not know that human thoughts were derived internally from the brain. By the time writing evolved, it was a well-established concept that dreams were frequently thought of as messages from the gods or another outside sources.

All other human sensory perceptions, such as sight, sound, taste and touch, come from external stimulants. When we are awake and thinking, we do not experience purely mental sensory events. Waking memory and dreams use different parts of the brain, which is why dreams can seem so real compared to mere memory. Dreams often use the same parts of the brain which are responsible for the processing of normal sensory signals, such as sight. This, the neurological experience is nearly the same.

In our dreams, which can be fearsomely realistic, we often see our dead family and friends. This presented our ancestors with a logical conundrum, as they "knew" their loved ones are dead, but they could see and hear and may even touch them in their dreams. So without other references, if we see what is real, and in our sleep we "see" those who are dead, then there must be something present that we can't see during the daytime. So an assumption that nocturnal senses would also be stimulated by external forces would be logical.

What happened next was pure human ingenuity. People were seeing these images in dreams, and could not always understand them. At some point in human history, some human decided to lie and claim that they could understand those nocturnal communications. They could interpret the cryptic messages from the dead friends or relatives, or they might even be able to communicate with them or channel them. The first conman was born, who no longer had to hunt or be productive for a living, but who could use their imagination and get the tribe (who more honestly did not claim to be able to understand or speak to these dream-people) to accord them a high status. Thus, the first shamans evolved within the tribes. It is an intrinsic part of almost every human culture, even our modern popular one (just look at all the movies and TV shows where people talk to ghosts and spirits). When we see someone today supposedly channeling the spirit of the dead, we are seeing a relic of humanity going back perhaps as far as 150,000 years or more.

But how to get from spirits of the dead to gods? I like the idea that is based on a basic human weakness that exists still today. People in authority don't like to admit ignorance, because they are afraid this will weaken the regard that others have for them. It would be natural for the tribe to ask the shaman questions such as: Where does the lightning come from? Why does the wind blow? How can I save my sick child? The shaman had no way to answer these questions, but they didn't want to admit this, so they made up an answer based on what people already believed and they knew worked for them within the community: namely, that these other occurrences were also the result of the actions or omissions of spirits, same as in the dreams, but stronger ones. As the lies multiplied and were retold over time, these spirits often became gods. Early recorded religions had thousands of such spirit gods, in the tress, rocks, waters, clouds, animals, etc.

As the explanations got more complex, and writing allowed the stories of the shamans and their ritualistic prescriptions to be recorded, the gods became more complex, rituals more refined, and the priesthood more powerful and organized. Out of this probably arose the institution of monarchy, where a secular ruler was in part entitled to the obedience of the people due to the favor of the imaginary gods. At some point, leadership became hereditary, which is not something we see in most other ape species, where any male can contend for the top spot. But at some point in human history, we decided that a person was entitled to rule over others not because of their own capabilities and merit, but because of their lineage - probably one of the worst ideas in all of human history. At that point, the shaman and the ruling class recognized that they had the same interest in promoting the religion of the gods which kept both in power and affluence.

So why do we have gods? Because we dream, and some people are very imaginative liars, and as we all know, any lie told often enough and loud enough tends to be accepted by many people as the truth.

Why do you think god was invented?
Debate Round No. 1
AKMath

Con

Your title is very biased, as it doesn"t suggest GOD may actually exist. So therefore I will try to prove to you that God exists and doesn"t come from a "a dream, a lie, and an explanation".

Here"s why God has to exist.

Our universe is so complex it all couldn"t have just been contingent.

The universe had to have a start. So what is it? Yeah I know the Big Bang, but how did that tiny point get there. How did it just suddenly explode?

Why does the universe act so orderly? Why does the universe have to be ruled by rules/math. There"s nothing stopping the universe being in complete disarray. The number of hours in a day stays the same, so does the speed of light and sound.
"How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?"

God exists b cause he"s shown himself to us. Jesus. Don"t argue on this as literally every historian including myself agrees Jesus of Nazareth, son of Joseph and Mary, was a real person who lived 2,000+ years ago. The crusifiction is also factually true agreed upon by again every historian.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org...

Here are some more reasons.
While you atheists laugh at creationism, it really makes more sense than any other theory out there. It"s easier to believe that a God exists than to believe a theory (The Big Bang) that doesn"t explain how, when, the point of everything got there. And how it just exploded.

One last thing.
What about the Saints?
Sure you can refute a lot of them. But what about St. Padre Pio.
My own grandmother (who"s still alive) went to one of his masses while visiting India and saw him levitate while blessing the Eucharist. He even got stigmata the same wounds Jesus got while on the cross, while sleeping. And he was quite recent, 1968 was when he died.

So I think God came from ACTUALLY BEING A REAL SUPERNATURAL DIETY.
backwardseden

Pro

Right off the bat, I"m extremely p**sed off at you. "My title"? Was it so hard for you to do something like actually READ? Was that so hard? This is NOT my title. Its not my article. I gave proper credit as to where the article came from.

Now did it ever occur to you that you are very biased because no one, not one person has ever even come close to proving that YOUR god even exists? So why on earth should the article make any attempt(s) to prove that this god does exist? There"s no way to test for this god. There"s no way to decale this god exists. There"s no way to demonstrate that this god exists. There no nothing.

"So therefore I will try to prove to you that God exists and doesn"t come from a "a dream, a lie, and an explanation"." Um no you will try to disprove the article. And if you don"t, then this debate will be over. Or do you want me to be really mean to you and degrade you and humiliate you as you rightly deserve? Your choice? You cannot just ignore, completely ignore what someone has put forth to you, in which case was done in RD1 and then you do a complete turnabout and you expect your opponent to say "hey I"m gonna follow you now". WRONG. That"s not how debates work.

"Here"s why God has to exist." Btw, there is no reason, not one reason why god has to exist.
Debate Round No. 2
AKMath

Con

Sorry.

Alright I"ll answer your questions.

P.S. The following responses I give were if I was an atheist.

A.
I agree we probably have God"s cause some guy decided to make up some story to explain the unexplainable at the time. In my opinion it could have happened something like Greek Mythology. Some writer/poet wrote a ginormous book laying out everything about Greek Mythology. After it was "released" to the public people started taking it too literally, and actually started believing it.

B.
I think God was invented for the incentive.

Ex.
1. Your mom says to do your chores.
2. Your mom says to do your chores and give you five dollars.

For me, God is that five dollars. The five dollars is essentially heaven. It gives you something to work for and look forward to. Everyone knows, that work is better when there is a reward at the end. If I was an atheist, I probably wouldn"t have any reason to do good deeds at all. At that point what"s the point in living?
backwardseden

Pro

All you did was try to switch roles and pretend that your god exists and Greek gods are false. Bad idea. Why didn't you
give "The following responses I give were if I was an atheist." in which you most certainly did not do?

A.
I agree we probably have God"s cause some guy decided to make up some story to explain the unexplainable at the time. In my opinion it could have happened something like Greek Mythology." And wow. You don't think that for a single solitary second of YOUR life that it could have happened with your unproved god in which you cannot prove, demonstrate or test in any way possible? Greek nothing. Don't invent excuses please.

B.
"I think God was invented for the incentive." Ah yes, the incentive to reign terror and deliberate horrific genocide, especially upon children as the bible implicitly states. And the bible's "incentive" is through its superior ego god complex and nothing else. That's all the bible is geared towards.

"For me, God is that five dollars." Two faults right there. If there is to be worldwide peace 1. All religion is required to be abolished. 2. All wealth/ money is required to be abolished. And then you have another fault "The five dollars is essentially heaven." "When she dies does she get to go to heaven? If she gets to go to heaven will she be happy? And she"ll probably say "yes". And you say "Will you be able to choose and do anything you want while you are in heaven?" And she"ll say "yes." And so you are basically saying "you"ll have free will in heaven?" So you have free will in heaven and no one is being hurt, raped, so you can do anything you want and no one gets hurt. If god has that power in heaven, he must have that power on earth. So he"s chose not to set that condition/ toggle switch which means he"s a dick." Phil Ferguson

"Everyone knows, that work is better when there is a reward at the end." Well that is 100% false. What if its slave labor as your god did absolutely nothing about?

"If I was an atheist, I probably wouldn"t have any reason to do good deeds at all. At that point what"s the point in living?" And that's why I'm an atheist, why I have friends and loved ones, why I am happy, Its why you are miserable, why you have no friends and loved ones, why you believe in your god, are convinced that he exists for no reason at all and cannot prove he exists and is remarkably brainwashed unlike any other, and is stuck in a rut and very unhappy with how things are in his life.
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by backwardseden 2 months ago
backwardseden
@jackgilbert - As stated, I'm not talking to you AT ALL until you answer some of the questions that has been put forth to you by me. o until you do = bye.
Posted by jackgilbert 2 months ago
jackgilbert
What makes everyone think that it is impossible for a God to exist? What is preventing you from seeing the intelligent design in creation?
Posted by backwardseden 2 months ago
backwardseden
No you test demonstrate and prove god that no one can. I'm not going to look for this piece of s--t that hates children that you cannot prove even exists. "but look to the sun (one of his creation)" Prove it and please don't lie or invent excuses please as you just did. Allah, the Quran I'm not familiar with. So what/ NOT EVIDENCE. Only stories. No god of yours would be stupid enough to use text, the worst form of communication possible so people like you can get it wrong form translation to translation to translation and copy to copy. This god of yours can simply talk to us. That's evidence. Since this god cannot or will not do this, you have no proof of his existence. You do not even know what your god is. You cannot describe your god. Don't talk to me anymore. I'm tired of explaining the same exact thing.
Posted by Ahmedhuss 2 months ago
Ahmedhuss
Do you see them you will say no but they exist .
You believe in science. What science prove is what you accept.
Allah say in the quran surah fussilat chapter 41 Vs 53
We shall show them our signs in the horizon and there own souls until it becomes truth is it not enough that there lord witness all things.
That's why I choosed in my last text to show you how small man is,the earth is and the sun is?
Allah say in surah furkan ch 25 Vs 61
Blessed is he who placed in the heaven a great lamp ( the sun ) and a moon who has a riflected light.
When did they discover that the moon doesn't have his own light 50/100 years ago.
This fact is allready written in the quran 1400 years ago. Who could have mentioned that?
Allah say in the quran
We have created every living thing from water
Now (nasa) is on the moon looking for signs of life what they are looking for (telephone )
No they are looking for water. Science again is on my side
There are a lot of signs. Next post i ll write more scientefic facts.
My last prove. Is that. The only true in life is death. Write on u tiub. Last words before death for athiest . You will know the truth on the bed of death and in this minute you will not be able to say I believe in God and you will remember this conversation.
Because allah say in surah qaf chp 50 Vs 22
It will be said that you were certainly in umindfulness (you were not aware )and we have removed from you your cover so your sight this day is sharp.
The last second of your life you ll discover the truth you will be able to see the angel of death taking away your soul. You still in this life but you can not speak your eyes will look up following your soul. You still have time. The door is open read the quran.
Posted by Ahmedhuss 2 months ago
Ahmedhuss
You asked me to domenstruate, test and show the exsiting of God. You want to see god? ? If God show himself to you? You will believe? I don't think so. Any way nobody is able to see god, but look to the sun (one of his creation) for only a few minutes .if you can. Seeing is not always believing. I have in my pocket 10 dollars. I ask you do you see them you will say n
Posted by Ahmedhuss 2 months ago
Ahmedhuss
You asked me to domenstruate, test and show the exsiting of God. You want to see god? ? If God show himself to you? You will believe? I don't think so. Any way nobody is able to see god, but look to the sun (one of his creation) for only a few minutes .if you can. Seeing is not always believing. I have in my pocket 10 dollars. I ask you do you see them you will say n
Posted by backwardseden 2 months ago
backwardseden
@Ahmedhuss - Yet strangely with a ho hum from the glue that is your aphid and not very smart brain, you cannot even prove that YOUR god even exists. How do you test, declare and demonstrate this god of YOURS? "Once you said God it allready cancels the question." What question? Oh I get it, the invented one that YOU asked to make your morning day a bit brighter and cheery. "All that our eyes can see is his creation" What you are speaking of is a long process of evolution and Mother Earth. That's been proven. Watch National Geographic's masterpiece series One Strange Rock that was just released a few months ago in which you cannot refute. Sorry. Please get an education before you open your maw from something into which you know nothing about and yet you pretend you do and thus have to invent excuses for it. What is "pilion"? Well gosh without the sun we wouldn't be here. Nor evolution wouldn't take place.
Mae Jemison "Plants here are green because our sun is green. The majority of light emitted from the sun is in the bluegreen wavelength. It doesn"t look green to us because it has light emitted in other areas to - in red and blue. And so when you blend all those together they look white. Most plants here on earth have evolved to use primarily red and blue light for photosynthesis. They reflect back the green light which is why they look green." That's solid evolution and it has NOTHING to do with your terrorist god of the bible.
"There are zilions of galaxy's out there all of this that you can see" Only with a telescope. god had nothing to do with telescopes. Wow the holes you dig yourself in.
"cause it takes us milions of years to reach our galaxy (the milky way)" Well only you know what you mean by that.
"God is the creator of 7 heavens." Define god". Define the 7 heavens.
I'm not playing with god. I have no idea what you are talking about. If you are going to post me again. olease get an education, an intelligence and know what you are talking about.
Posted by Ahmedhuss 2 months ago
Ahmedhuss
Where did God come from ?
Once you said God it allready cancels the question.
The definition of God is believing in a superior power
This superior power has no image no plural (you can not say godes
You can not say goddess. He is the end.
All that our eyes can see is his creation man, mountains, people, the time is one of his creation he change every thing no body can change him.
we are maybe 6 pilion living on the earth how big is it? Compare it to the sun. You can place 1.3 milion earth inside the sun. And it's only one star. There are milions of stars milions of times bigger than the sun.and all of the stars that you can see you need milions of them to make one galaxy. There are zilions of galaxy's out there all of this that you can see and of course you will be not able to see cause it takes us milions of years to reach our galaxy (the milky way)
All of these and we still in the first heaven and God is the creator of 7 heavens.
This is God that you and I are playing with.
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