The Instigator
Leo.Messi
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Jingle_Bombs
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Whether ISIS could (beyond reasonable doubt) march to Rome and "dethrone" the Pope.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/17/2015 Category: News
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,903 times Debate No: 70195
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (7)
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Leo.Messi

Con

Terms:

ISIS-A Militant Islamic group located in northern Syria/Iraq
Pope-The leading figure in Catholicism (located in the vatican city)
dethrone- to physically remove from any position of power or authority.
Rome-the Capital of Italy

My Arguments:
I. Military Strength
II. Foreign Intervention
III. ISIS is not supported by many muslims

I. Military Strength
In order to even reach Italy, ISIS would have to march through Syria, Turkey, Israel, Jordan, and/or Italy.
Syria-though it is engaged in a civil war-its military is relatively strong, with---
178,000 frontline personnel
500,000+ reserves
4,950 tanks
680 multiple launch rocket systems
473 Aircraft
169 helicopters
44 Coastal defense craft
1 bil defense budget

This alone is a very hard nation to battle, especially for this militant militia type army.

Now, they could also try and pass through Jordan---And after that they would have to pass through Israel.

Jordan Military---
175,000+ Soldiers
1,321 tanks
4600 Armored fighting vehicles
88 multiple launch rocket systems
246 Aircraft
107 Helicopters
27 Coastal Craft (Ships)
1 billion dollar defense budget
38 billion dollar purchasing power

Israeli Military---
500,000+ Soldiers
3,870 tanks (http://en.wikipedia.org...) (these tanks are very well built and strong)
88 multiple launch rocket systems
9,000+ armored fighting vehicles
680 Aircraft
143 Helicopters
110 Military Ships
15 billion dollar defense budget
260 billion dollar purchasing power

Or they could try and fight against Turkey---
500,000 Soldiers
3,657 tanks
8,500 Armored fighting vehicles
646 Multiple Launch rocket systems
989 Aircraft
418 Helicopters
18 billion dollar purchasing power
1 trillion dollar purchasing power

Even IF they got to pass through Israel/Jordan Syria/turkey, they would then have to pass through Italy itself!

362,000 Soldiers
600 tanks
9,500 Armored fighting vehicles
22 Multiple launch rocket systems
795 Aircraft
436 Helicopters
174 Ships
34 billion dollar defense budget
1 trillion dollar purchasing power

I believe I have demonstrated it is beyond reason that ISIS should ever dethrone the Pope...

I will present my next arguments in the next rounds.

www.globalfirepower.com

Good luck.
Jingle_Bombs

Pro

CON provided me enough wiggle room with his definitions and rules to make the following arguments:

1) ISIS may dethrone the current pope through assassination (either in Rome or when the Pope is traveling aboard).
2) ISIS may "march" to Rome with clandestine soldiers and embedded sleeper cells or with Muslim protesters (no need to conqueror NATO countries).
3) ISIS may acquire a WMD and use it against the Vatican.
4) ISIS could possibly acquire a large coalition of Muslim nation allies and supporters who could potentially declare Jihad ageist Catholicism.
5) Allah himself may dethrone the Pope (pending if Allah exists).
6) ISIS may dethrone the Papacy through subversion

Tactical Points of Consideration within Pro's Terms and Conditions.

POINT #1 That ISIS may dethrone the Pope through assassination works as CON has limited his definition of the papacy to only the current Pope:

"Pope- The leading figure in Catholicism (located in the Vatican city)."

Dethroning of the Pope is thus possible upon the immediate death of Pope Francis. Removal of the office of Pontifex Maximus from the Catholic Church is thus NOT a necessary precondition in order to meet CON's rules and definitions. (I do however expect CON to cry foul on this point, so just in case, I have provided addiontional arguments that do infact ensure that no other Pope could succeed Pope Francis; however I have no intention of ever dropping this argument).

+dethrone- to physically remove from any position of power or authority.
+Pope-The leading figure in Catholicism (located in the Vatican city)."
=death or removal of only the current Pope.

Assassination of the current Pope is thus more than possible for ISIS by using any kind of organized terrorist raid on the Vatican or any kind of lone-wolf / "run & gun" / RPG / sniper / or IED tactics at a papal rally.

POINT#2 CON has provided no definition for "march" and has never expressed a necessary precondition that ISIS must physically capture the city of Rome. We thus have no choice but to assume the normal english dictionary's definition of "march" which is three fold:

1)to walk with regular and measured tread, as soldiers on parade; advance in step in an organized body.
2.to walk in a stately, deliberate manner.
3)to go forward; advance; proceed:

Source:http://dictionary.reference.com...

Thus ISIS may "march" to Rome successfully simply by using embedded European sleeper cells or celestine agents. They could also meet the walking defition of a "march" by simply parading around the city while waving there ISIS flags or hilariously walking in step.

More realistically however, it is possible with enough Muslim and political support for ISIS to stage and sponsor a large muslim protest on the Vatican (or Rome). Simply desecrating the image of Muhammad and blaming it on the Catholics through propaganda statements should suffice. ISIS will thus meet the definition of a "march on Rome."

POINT #3 Should ISIS acquire a WMD (especially of a nuclear grade) then they could potentially change the balance of power for all countries in the world. A clandestine nuclear attack on the Vatican would not only dethrone the current Pope, but could also kill off the college of cardinals as well. With no one left to succeed the Pope; and the Catholic Church in complete shock/chaos from nuclear attacj; the Office of Pontifex Maximus could potetinally fall into ruin.

We can also believe ISIS could potentially acquire a nuclear weapon due to the career success of AQ Khan (http://en.wikipedia.org...). A muslim scientist who was able to give atomic secrets to Pakistan and N. Korea and used to run a syndicated underground (blackmarket) nuclear network. If AQ Khan could do it, then ISIS could to.

POINT #4 That ISIS could possibly find itself infront of a large coalition of muslim nation allies and supporters works should political /cultural circumstances rapidly change in the muslim world. This is entirely possible due to middle east instability, ongoing civil wars, and Arab revolutions. The Arab Spring provides an intellectual blueprint for what this might look like - and should something like this occur where a middle east revolution has ISIS leading a coalition of Muslim nations, they could realistically have the military power to engage in conventional military operations against NATO or the Vatican. There Jihad might not succeed outright, but they will still have the military capability at least to dethrone the Pope and end the papacy.

POINT #5 That Allah himself may dethrone the Pope works -without a doubt- if Allah exists. This point does appear silly but it is included because it does meet CON's challenge & rules and is a method that could "without a doubt" succeed. Again, this only works if Allah exists, however, CON cannot prove that he does not.

POINT #6 That ISIS may dethrone the papacy through subversion works if ISIS is able to infiltrate the college of cardinals -and with bribery, arm-twisting, or hostage taking- elect one of there own supporters secretly to the Office of Pontifex Maximus. We can believe that this method is possible due to papal politics and the historical machiavellian trend of state and non-state actors influencing the papacy and college of cardinals since the early Renaissance.

I believe that I have proved that it is perfectly logical to assume that ISIS could realistically "without a doubt" dethrone the current Pope or remove the Office of Pontifex Maximus from the Catholic Church by using these tactics .

Now over to CON.
Debate Round No. 1
Leo.Messi

Con

Rebuttals:
CON provided me enough wiggle room with his definitions and rules to make the following arguments:

1) ISIS may dethrone the current pope through assassination (either in Rome or when the Pope is traveling aboard).
2) ISIS may "march" to Rome with clandestine soldiers and embedded sleeper cells or with Muslim protesters (no need to conqueror NATO countries).

Notice the debate---
"Whether ISIS could (beyond reasonable doubt) MARCH to Rome and dethrone the Pope."
They would have to march all of their armies to Rome and dethrone the Pope. I am sorry if you misunderstood the debate.

"Allah himself may dethrone the Pope (pending if Allah exists)."
Allah is the muslim deity. However I doubt that, even if he exists, he would dethrone such a nice man as the Pope. And plus, The debate was whether ISIS could dethrone the Pope, NOT Allah.

"Thus ISIS may "march" to Rome successfully simply by using embedded European sleeper cells or celestine agents. They could also meet the walking definition of a "march" by simply parading around the city while waving there ISIS flags or hilariously walking in step."

Ok, still you have contradicted yourself. You first say they could do it through sleeper cells, and now you talk about parading through a city? This would still be unlikely, as A) Italy fears an invasion-so they are already set against ISIS B) ISIS does not have so much support in Italy
Italian Police are already on the lookout for ISIS. They stand with machine guns ready, and there is an increased security presence in the public places. Italy is no friend of ISIS.

But that is besides the point. They would have to MARCH to Rome. NOT march IN Rome-but TO Rome.
Now, ISIS also has a holding in Libya. Can't they Sail Across the sea and march to Rome that way?
No. Italy is a part of the European Union. And Italy is ready to attack ISIS before ISIS can invade them.
Italy is ready to lead a multilateral effort to tackle the growing threat from jihadists in Libya and prevent "a caliphate" forming across the sea from Europe"s shores, the Italian defence minister has said.
http://www.newsweek.com...

If Italy could not stand against ISIS, It has the European Union to back them up. Germany, Britain, France, Greece, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Estonia, Spain , Portugal, all united against one threat.

US Intervention---
The US has begun to intervene in this crisis, weakening ISIS.

Obama has persued airstrikes, along with Canada and Turkey.
NATO is considering intervention to protect Italy.
http://www.nbcnews.com...

So to sum up my arguments-ISIS could not MARCH to Rome and dethrone the Pope because
A) NATO and EU Intervention
B) US intervention
C) Italy is set against them
Jingle_Bombs

Pro


Looks like this debate is going to come down to semantics.

"Whether ISIS could (beyond reasonable doubt) MARCH to Rome and dethrone the Pope."
They would have to march all of their armies to Rome and dethrone the Pope.

Please show to myself and to the voters where you ever said ISIS must march "all of its armies" to Rome.

Please also show to myself and to the voters where you ever provided a definition for: "March"

If Italy could not stand against ISIS, It has the European Union to back them up. Germany, Britain, France, Greece, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Estonia, Spain , Portugal, all united against one threat.

Please show to myself and to the voters where the rules said ISIS must conqueror NATO countries.

CON has failed to be clear with his definitions & rules and Pro's arguments should not be penalized for the other side's mistakes.

ISIS could dethrone the Pope, NOT Allah.

ISIS technically could if Allah exists and sides with ISIS. He could then empower ISIS soldiers.

They would have to MARCH to Rome. NOT march IN Rome-but TO Rome.

So what's to prevent an ISIS sleeper cell from being activated in another Italian city where the agents then proceed to march directly TO Rome? What's to prevent an ISIS sponsored mob-protest from beginning in a different Italian city and then also proceeding to march TO Rome? Muslim mob riots have happened in Europe before and will happen again.

ISIS does not have so much support in Italy

To what degree? CON has provided no source for this claim.

The US has begun to intervene in this crisis, weakening ISIS.

The whole military might of the US and NATO countries could not possibly deter ISIS from dethroning the Pope if ISIS is able to acquire a WMD. A nuclear WMD will clearly shift the balance of power in dramatic ways.

Back to CON.
Debate Round No. 2
Leo.Messi

Con

Rebuttals:
Please show to myself and to the voters where you ever said ISIS must march "all of its armies" to Rome.
1)to walk with regular and measured tread, as soldiers on parade; advance in step in an organized body.
2.to walk in a stately, deliberate manner.
3)to go forward; advance; proceed:

You established this definition.

Notice the first definition-it says you "walk...as an organized body," implying that there are many people.
Notice the second definition. "to walk in a stately, deliberate manner." No sleeper cell marches to Rome sir. It is beyond reasonable doubt, as is a ISIS parade because
1) Italy is going to attack ISIS in Libya---Italy Mobilizes 5,000-Strong Military Force to Fight ISIS in Libya
http://www.breitbart.com...

2) Italy has set up much security in Rome to protect public buildings from Muslim radicles.
Extra security in Rome in wake of Libya crisis
http://www.wantedinrome.com...

So in order to conquer Rome and dethrone the Pope, ISIS would in fact need an army. No assassin walks in a stately manner. They are secretive.

Now, your third definition.
move forward, advance etc.
advance definition
move forward, typically in a purposeful way.
"the troops advanced on the capital"
---google dictionary

It would have to be an organized body marching on Rome.

"ISIS technically could if Allah exists and sides with ISIS. He could then empower ISIS soldiers"
ISIS would have to dethrone the pope. not Allah empowering stuff.
So, your saying that if Allah exists, than he could empower the ISIS soldiers. Sir, its not just whether he exists, its whether he has the power to do the things you are saying. Before continuing, I would like to ask you to show this argument to be true instead of assuming it is true.

"So what's to prevent an ISIS sleeper cell from being activated in another Italian city where the agents then proceed to march directly TO Rome? What's to prevent an ISIS sponsored mob-protest from beginning in a different Italian city and then also proceeding to march TO Rome? Muslim mob riots have happened in Europe before and will happen again."

First-no sources. This is just a bunch of "what if____"? "what if ____?"s What's to guarantee an uprising in Italy? So, until sources are provided I will take this as an assumed statement and it is invalid.
Italys military is to strong for an uprising, for Islam is professed by an estimated 2% of the population --- http://en.wikipedia.org...

and it is extremely unlikely that all 2% of an unarmed population would rebel, and then go on to take the capital city of an EU country. There is no assurance of this. So please support your arguments with a source. Thank you.

"To what degree? CON has provided no source for this claim [ISIS does not have so much support in Italy]"
Only 2% of Italians are Muslims. Even IF all of them supported ISIS (which they don't) It would still be a very small amount of people supporting ISIS In Italy.

"The whole military might of the US and NATO countries could not possibly deter ISIS from dethroning the Pope if ISIS is able to acquire a WMD. A nuclear WMD will clearly shift the balance of power in dramatic ways."

ISIS does not currently occupy any country that has developed Nuclear weaponry.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com...

Syria does not have nukes, and neither does Iraq.
Libya does not have nuclear weaponry either.

ISIS could not just "steal" a nuke. Do you know how protected they are!?!
not even the American people, the French people, the british people, or the Russian people know where they are!
Such a notion is absurd.

Thank you, and good luck!
Jingle_Bombs

Pro


March:
1)to walk with regular and measured tread, as soldiers on parade; advance in step in an organized body.
2.to walk in a stately, deliberate manner.

You established this definition.

Not true. The English dictionary established that definition.

The dictionary and its established glossary of known words is the only "objective" standard myself or anyone else reading this debate could use to understand terms in the event that an instigator has failed to define a term.

Notice the first definition-it says you "walk...as an organized body," implying that there are many

Of course. The marching definition of "organized" is met in the event of a large-scale and "organized" terrorist attack is carried out, or in the event that an "organized" mob consisting ISIS sympathizers marches on the Vatican.

For example. The 1960 civil rights movement -led by Dr King- was a "March on" Washington.

"to walk in a stately, deliberate manner." No sleeper cell marches to Rome sir. It is beyond reasonable doubt,

When a sleeper cell consisting of ISIS terrorists storms the Vatican with guns blazing (much like the Muslim Paris street killings of 2015); we can believe that this is in fact a "deliberate walk" and "march" on the Papal's residency.

as is a ISIS parade because...

ISIS accomplishes this definition of a "march" by simply having a few supporters joy-ride across the city while waving the ISIS flag. Though they are unlikely to get away with it for long - it is realistic and does accomplish a propaganda purpose. To date, ISIS supports and sympathizers have already been caught parading ISIS flags in Australia: http://rt.com... Ferguson, Missouri: http://www.wnd.com... London: http://www.theguardian.com... and in the Netherlands: http://www.thedailybeast.com...

Parading a flag in a foreign country is thus an established propaganda tactic used by ISIS -that has a high chance of succeeding- and meets the dictionary definition of a march.

Italy is going to attack ISIS in Libya---Italy Mobilizes 5,000-Strong Military Force to Fight ISIS in Libya.

Thereby inflaming the wrath of ISIS and its Muslim supporters in Europe; not the evidence I would have used if I was trying to prove that ISIS would not dare attack Italy.

2) Italy has set up much security in Rome to protect public buildings from Muslim radicals.
Extra security in Rome in wake of Libya crisis.

The 2012 terrorist attack on the US Embassy in Libya (Benghazi) also had guard presence prior to being attacked - including a CIA presence consisting of private contractors and Delta Force operators (http://en.wikipedia.org...). Not even this was able to thwart 150 armed men armed with Ak-47s and RPGs. The VIP on site, US Ambassador Chris Stevens was also killed. This is a perfect example from recent history that proves that muslim extremists who are organized and armed with deadly weapons can infact breakthrough Western security and kill the VIP on site (aka the Pope).

http://www.wantedinrome.com......

So in order to conquer Rome...

Again, please show to me and to the voters where you ever said it was necessary to "conqueror Rome" in the original rules and resolution.

Now, your third definition.
move forward, advance etc.
advance definition
move forward, typically in a purposeful way.
"the troops advanced on the capital"
---google dictionary

It would have to be an organized body marching on Rome.

Which is easily accomplished through an organized terrorist attack (like the Benghazi model) or an organized riot led by Muslim extremists. The most recent example we have of the latter succeeding (other than the surreal number of Muslim riots during the Arab spring) Is the recent coup in Yemen by the terrorist group Houthis (http://en.wikipedia.org...) which forced the Yemen president to step down. And the 2005 muslim riots in France http://en.wikipedia.org... and Denmark http://en.wikipedia.org.... The latter occurring after a Western writer published a cartoon of Muhammad.

So, your saying that if Allah exists, than he could empower the ISIS soldiers.

I have decided to drop this argument. It was originally included for an entertainment purpose that did in theory meet the challenge put forth by the instigator.

What's to guarantee an uprising in Italy?

Historical precedence. Demonstated from sourced claims and examples of muslim terrorist attacks/mobs from above.

and it is extremely unlikely that all 2% of an unarmed population would rebel

Doesn't need to be 2%. The angry mob or terrorist cell can be as small as 100 to 10 people and still probably succeeding in at least sniping the Pope with a .50 caliber rifle and then proceed to parade through the streets of Rome waving ISIS flags in celebration. This scenario is practical, plausible, and does in fact meet the challenge Con has put forth.

Pro's sources???

We can believe that ISIS has enough support through out Europe to launch a terrorist attacks or instigate a mob incident against Rome based on the number of European sympathizers who have been recruited to fight with ISIS.

Thus far 3,000 Europeans have left to join ISIS.
(http://www.bbc.com...)

Including at least 50 from Italy.
http://www.washingtonpost.com...

ISIS does not currently occupy any country that has developed Nuclear weaponry.

Doesn't need to. N.Korea, Iran, Libya, and Pakistan were all able to develop nuclear technology through the AQ Khan blackmarket network (http://en.wikipedia.org...). And at least one American teenager was able to build a nuclear reactor in his garage: http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

ISIS could not just "steal" a nuke. Do you know how protected they are!?!

Yes, I do. The USAF has had at least 8 "broken arrow" incidents since 1950. Among the stray nukes that were lost and never recovered there are at least several unaccounted ones somewhere in the Pacific, a couple at least at the bottom of the Mediterranean, and at least one nuke off of Tybee island in the state of Georgia (http://mentalfloss.com...). Meanwhile the IAEA has reported at least 100 smuggling attempts of the large Russian nuclear arsenal (former Soviet Union) since 1993 (http://www.cfr.org...).
. And there nukes aren't nearly as accounted for or as well guarded as ours

not even the American people...know where they (nukes) are!

I believe they are in North Dakota.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

I've provided many detailed sources this round, and have proven that an assassination of the Pope followed by a propanda ISIS parade through the streets of Rome is possible and fully within the capabilities of a well-funded and organized militant group. This does meet the "marching" and "dethroning" definitions that were set and (not set) by the Instigator.

Back over to Con.
Debate Round No. 3
Leo.Messi

Con

"Of course. The marching definition of "organized" is met in the event of a large-scale and "organized" terrorist attack is carried out, or in the event that an "organized" mob consisting ISIS sympathizers marches on the Vatican.

For example. The 1960 civil rights movement -led by Dr King- was a "March on" Washington."

Please show any evidence that there in fact are ISIS sympathizers in Italy, specifically Rome. until this point sir you have been assuming that there is a good amount of support for ISIS, but you have failed to prove it.

The 1960 Civil rights movement led by MLK was peaceful and was not aimed at dethroning anyone.

"When a sleeper cell consisting of ISIS terrorists storms the Vatican with guns blazing (much like the Muslim Paris street killings of 2015); we can believe that this is in fact a "deliberate walk" and "march" on the Papal's residency."

Again, you assume ISIS is supported in Rome, but fail to show it.

"ISIS accomplishes this definition of a "march" by simply having a few supporters joy-ride across the city while waving the ISIS flag. Though they are unlikely to get away with it for long - it is realistic and does accomplish a propaganda purpose. To date, ISIS supports and sympathizers have already been caught parading ISIS flags in Australia: http://rt.com...... Ferguson, Missouri: http://www.wnd.com...... London: http://www.theguardian.com...... and in the Netherlands: http://www.thedailybeast.com...;

again, you assume ISIS has support in Italy, but fail to prove it. All of these things are hopeful what ifs', without proof to back them up.

"Thereby inflaming the wrath of ISIS and its Muslim supporters in Europe; not the evidence I would have used if I was trying to prove that ISIS would not dare attack Italy."

You assume that a Muslim rebellion will be the outcome, yet you have no proof, only pointing to nearby countries with a far bigger Muslim population than Italy and say "look! it happened here!"

"The 2012 terrorist attack on the US Embassy in Libya (Benghazi) also had guard presence prior to being attacked - including a CIA presence consisting of private contractors and Delta Force operators (http://en.wikipedia.org......). Not even this was able to thwart 150 armed men armed with Ak-47s and RPGs. The VIP on site, US Ambassador Chris Stevens was also killed. This is a perfect example from recent history that proves that Muslim extremists who are organized and armed with deadly weapons can infact breakthrough Western security and kill the VIP on site (aka the Pope). "

This happened in Libya, a place full of terrorism and radicalization. Italy is only 2% Muslim, with (estimated) 0.02% Muslim radicles. It is not as likely as Libya.

" Is the recent coup in Yemen by the terrorist group Houthis (http://en.wikipedia.org......) which forced the Yemen president to step down. And the 2005 muslim riots in France http://en.wikipedia.org...... and Denmark http://en.wikipedia.org....... The latter occurring after a Western writer published a cartoon of Muhammad."

Again, a much higher Muslim population and different circumstances.

"Historical precedence. Demonstrated from sourced claims and examples of muslim terrorist attacks/mobs from above."

This is not enough evidence to convince anyone that a muslim uprising would happen in Italy, specifically Rome, since most of the Muslim population is located in the northern part of Italy and not the central part.

"Doesn't need to be 2%. The angry mob or terrorist cell can be as small as 100 to 10 people and still probably succeeding in at least sniping the Pope with a .50 caliber rifle and then proceed to parade through the streets of Rome waving ISIS flags in celebration. This scenario is practical, plausible, and does in fact meet the challenge Con has put forth."

10 people would not make it past the Popes guard, Swiss guard, Gendarmerie, and Italian Police.
The corps is responsible for security, public order, border control, traffic control, criminal investigation, and other general police duties in Vatican City.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
The Gendarmerie is equipped with the Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol in 9 mm Parabellum as the standard issue weapon.

They also have more powerful weapons, such as the Beretta M12 and the Heckler & Koch MP5 sub-machine gun, a weapon also used by the Italian police. Against possible riots, they are supplied with batons, pepper sprays and tear gas. For the elite-unit Rapid Intervention Group (GIR), members are equipped with the Carbon 15 carbine and Heckler & Koch FABARM FP6 shotguns.

The Italian Police: A formidable force.
During 2005 in Italy, the number of active police officers from all agencies totaled 324,339, the highest number in the European Union both overall and per capita, twice the number of agents in the similarly sized United Kingdom.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
The Anti Terrorism Police is a specialist body made up of the Central Directorate for the Anti Terrorism Police and of the Branches for General Investigations and Special Operations Division (DIGOS - Divisione Investigazioni Generali e Operazioni Speciali), located in the questure at the local level. The Directorate for the Anti Terrorism Police has two departments: one is mainly responsible for information collection and analysis while the other develops and coordinates investigations aimed at preventing and fighting terrorism. The Nucleo Operativo Centrale di Sicurezza (Central Operational Core of Security) is the State Police"s elite SWAT unit.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
The standard service pistol of the Polizia di Stato is the Beretta Model 92FS; other sidearms might be made available to the Police personnel according to necessities and assignments. In addition, a Beretta PM-12S sub-machine gun is issued to every squad car. Other firearms, such as the Beretta 70/90 assault weapons system, Heckler & Koch MP5 sub-machine guns and Benelli shotguns are in service with the corps and can either be issued to the general personnel according to particular necessities or to the specialties the officers are assigned to. A 40mm grenade launcher, the GL-40/90, manufactured by Luigi Franchi S.p.A. under license from Heckler & Koch of Germany is the standard issue weapon for riot control operations.[9]
The Swiss Guard is also on alert to protect the Pope.

that is all I have to say.
Thank you sir for the debate-you have done a great job.
perhaps we should do another sometime?

Good day ;)
Jingle_Bombs

Pro


Please show any evidence that there in fact are ISIS sympathizers in Italy,

Two (Italians) detained after Italian police find Isis flag:
http://www.thelocal.it...

1,000s of ISIS fighters from Europe & Italy:
http://www.washingtonpost.com...

The 1960 Civil rights movement led by MLK was peaceful and was not aimed at dethroning anyone.

The point of this example was to show how an organized crowd of protesters could meet the definition of a march. Obviously the crowd wasn't armed or rioting.

Again, you assume ISIS is supported in Rome, but fail to show it.

You must have missed in Round 3 where I mentioned that over 3,000+ ISIS fighters have come from Europe, including at least 50 from Italy http://www.washingtonpost.com... http://www.bbc.com....

And according to this source: Italy also has the fourth largest muslim population in Europe (2.2 million)

http://www.ibtimes.com...

There is thus a clearly demonstrated Islamic presence in Italy and throughout Europe - with evidence of ISIS sympathies.

You assume that a Muslim rebellion will be the outcome, yet you have no proof, only pointing to nearby countries with a far bigger Muslim population than Italy and say "look! it happened here!"

Italy is barely a 100 miles from Libya and Tunisia - both of which are former Italian colonies and have huge Muslim populations. Libya also has one of the largest ISIS infiltrations in the world (over 1,000 fighter have come from Libya and 3,000 have come from Tunisia), and would be a perfect base of operations to spring board attacks against Italy.

According to the Italian Secret Service; "throngs of Libyan immigrants & refugees" have already made there way to Italy successfully by boat. And now Italian officials are worried about a hijacked plane making its way too. (http://www.breitbart.com...)

This is not enough evidence to convince anyone that a muslim uprising would happen in Italy, specifically Rome

If it happened in Europe, then it could easily happen in Italy. This logic should be self-evident based on part by EU open-borders agreements and Italy's close proximity with countries where mulism riots have occurred.

10 people would not make it past the Popes guard, Swiss guard, Gendarmerie, and Italian Police.

A lone-wolf sniper/suicide bomber could. On top of that, I see no reason to believe why an organized mob of angry armed men could not breach the Vatican or reach the Pope if he's traveling abroad or hosting an outdoor rally. Here, a well placed IED against the Pope Mobile could also suffice.

They (Italian police) also have more powerful weapons,

They won't if ISIS is able to smuggle in a WMD. This could happen.

The Italian Police: A formidable force.

The problem with relying on police & security tactics for counter-terrorism in general is that security officials & procedures must be successful 100% of the time against multiple threats in order to prevent a terrorist attack. Yet we know it only takes 1 successful attack to kill a VIP, cause political/economic chaos, or do serious damage. A formidable police force therefore, (while increasing the attack difficulty) does not actually prove that a successful attack against the Vatican or the Pope would be impossible.

Most Plausible Rome-Dethrone Scenario.

The most plausible ISIS "march on Rome/dethrone the Pope" scenario is simply an assassination of the current Pope while he is in Rome or traveling aboard. This can be accomplished either through a Lone-wolf sniper bullet or a well-placed IED. Both militant killing methods have already been demonstrated effectively by ISIS in Iraq, Syria, and elsewhere. Assassinating the current Pope does fulfill Con's original definition of The Pope and "dethrone;" which is to to physically remove from any position of power or authority. And where Pope is defined as "The leading figure in Catholicism," who of course is none other than Pope Francis http://en.wikipedia.org.... If this is not sufficient for some reason, then I maintain the position that a WMD attack against the Vatican could wipe out the "office" as well as the current Pope.

A march to/on Rome is thus accomplished by an ISIS propaganda rally inside Rome following a successful assassination or terrorist attack. Which is also within ISIS's current capabilities.

As Pro, my role to prove the resolution has not been to prove that ISIS "will" march to Rome & dethrone the Pope; only that it "could." And with the terrorist methods and tactics that I've expressed, I've argued that each are either within ISIS's current military capabilities or within easy grasp. These tactics could succeed "without a doubt," and therefore fulfill by BOP for the resolution. If you agree with me, vote Pro!

that is all I have to say.
Thank you sir for the debate-you have done a great job.

My pleasure. Well done also.
Debate Round No. 4
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by Envisage 1 year ago
Envisage
Awesome debate setup! Reading now.
Posted by bluesteel 1 year ago
bluesteel
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dsjpk5. 3 points to Con (arguments). Removed because: referring to one of Pro's 6 arguments and saying it was off-topic is not a sufficient rationale for why *Con* had better arguments. I struggle to find any reason in this RFD why the core of Pro's case was unconvincing or why Con did a better job.

Reasons for voting decision: Part of Pro's arguments involved saying Allah could remove the Pope. However, that's not what they're supposed to be debating. They were supposed to be debating if ISIS could do it. With that in mind, arguments to Con.
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Posted by Leo.Messi 2 years ago
Leo.Messi
You need to source your stuff-I will respond soon ;)
Good job.
Posted by Jingle_Bombs 2 years ago
Jingle_Bombs
Sorry, Tactical Points of Consideration within ***CON's*** Terms and Conditions. Huge typo.
Posted by Leo.Messi 2 years ago
Leo.Messi
I just want to see anyone's counter arguments...
Posted by CooCooClockofDoom 2 years ago
CooCooClockofDoom
@Leo.Messi
Why did you think you would need 4 rounds when you have completely obliterated any argument that could be made in the first round?
Posted by npeterso2018 2 years ago
npeterso2018
Agreed with Leo.Messi... They are just trying to scare us.
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