The Instigator
Leo.Messi
Pro (for)
Winning
19 Points
The Contender
mg2
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Whether Jews have been oppressed for the past 500 years

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Leo.Messi
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/26/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 919 times Debate No: 65863
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (27)
Votes (3)

 

Leo.Messi

Pro

The Jews have been severely oppressed for the past 500 years-as I will reveal in this debate.
mg2

Con

Let get it on..

Oppression is such a strong word, if it happened once it doesn't need to be carried in general.
Debate Round No. 1
Leo.Messi

Pro

First, I would like to thank my opponent for taking me up on this debate. Thank you. The Jews HAVE been oppressed for the past 500 years. The definition of oppression is " prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control." The treatment of the Jews for the past 500 years was very unjust. It was horribly unjust. And 500 years is a long time. And I will show you how exactly they were oppressed. First-Martin Luther. A famous christian leader who objected to the teachings of Catholicism and the pope. However this man led many others in hate toward these Jews with his work entitled "the Jews and thier lies." Here he says --
"First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly " and I myself was unaware of it " will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.
Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.
Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.
Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb."

Martin Luther repeatedly led many Christians in this hatred toward Jews. These Jews were shown to be less than human--and were terrorized wherever they went. Eventually this hatred spread. Luther was the most widely read author of his generation, and within Germany he acquired the status of a prophet.[215] According to the prevailing view among historians,[216] his anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany,[217] and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an "ideal underpinning" for the Nazis' attacks on Jews.[218] During this time The term "pogrom" in the meaning of large-scale, targeted, and repeated anti-Jewish rioting, saw its first use in the 19th century, in reference to the anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian Empire. Pogroms began occurring after the Russian Empire, which previously had very few Jews, acquired territories with large Jewish populations during 1791-1835. These territories were designated "the Pale of Settlement" by the Russian government, within which Jews were reluctantly permitted to live, and it was within them that the pogroms largely took place. Most Jews were forbidden from moving to other parts of the Empire, unless they converted to Orthodox Christianity. This is severe oppression. And it needs to be recognized.

www.wikipedia.com/Martin Luther
American holocaust museum
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.com/Martin Luther
www.wikipedia.com/pogroms

Thank you
mg2

Con

mg2 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
Leo.Messi

Pro

Since my opponent forfeited, I will continue with my arguments...
Then came the holocaust-a systematic killing of 6 million Jews, over 1 million of them innocent children. Why were the Jews killed along with the other groups of people Hitler and his Nazi regime hated? Because they were not Aryan? Because Hitler was influenced by Martin Luther? We will never know for sure. The point is, from 1932 (the beginning of the Reich) To 1945 (the fall of the Reich) the Jews were severely oppressed and then systematically killed.

I. Hitler comes to power (1932-1935)
During this time, the Nazi regime introduced a series of laws targeted at Jews specifically. The NUREMBERG laws, and such made it hard for Jews to get jobs, did not allow Jews to marry non-Jews, and other extremely unjust control (oppression). The Nuremburg laws did exactly this. "The laws issued on September 15, 1935, approved by Hitler personally, deprived Jews of German citizenship, prohibited Jewish households from having German maids under the age of 45, prohibited any non-Jewish German from marrying a Jew and outlawed sexual relations between Jews and Germans."

This was a law targeted at making the Jews lives miserable. "There can be no complete record of the innumerable acts of violence perpetrated against the Jews under the Dictatorship. The body of unrefuted evidence available is enormous--even if it represented all that had happened the persecution would be one of the most frightful of modern times. But it represents only a small fraction of the whole. We have not, and probably never shall have, more than a fragmentary knowledge of the beatings, the murders, the torture, the robbing, the blackmailing, the arrests and imprisonments, not to speak of the humiliations (both public and private) that have been perpetrated by Nazis on the Jews...."

And then it Got Worse...
II. Elimination
After this-many Jews were marched of to concentration camps. Auschwitz, Dachau, and Treblinka to name a few. As the war went on, some concentration camps were then turned into death camps. Auschwitz was most likely the worst of them. Sinister Characters such as Joseph Mengele http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org..., Horrible soldiers/guards, combined with foul living conditions spelled death to many of the Jews there. Mengele was responsible for Inhumane Experiments On Jews. You can find more at the website about Mengele. He was a horrible character, injecting serums into Jews to see which one killed them the fastest. Making them stand outside barely clothed (or not at all) in below freezing weather. He did many other unspeakable things that would be inappropriate to talk about on this site. But this was horrible. Today Auschwitz stands as a museum to remember these unspeakable things. Thousands died at Auschwitz. Millions in all the camps. And why? because of Jewish heritage. More info can be found at http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

III. Aftermath
6 million Jews. All dead. Gone. Because they were Jewish. This time was really a down point for humanity. But it wasn't over yet. The Soviet Union still had an anti-Semitic policy and would oppress Jews inside their territory's even after the creation of the state of Israel.

IV. Refutations. Some may say that there was a period of non-Jew oppression from 1895-1929. This is a false statement.
The Russian Pogroms still continued past 1932, until Stalin's death. And in 1903, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were published in Russia, a false document (later proven false in several courts, including Russian courts), and it was published to cause hatred and suspicion toward the Jews. It also "justified" the horrible Russian Pogroms and allowed the Russian government to pass restrictions on the Jews. During this time the Jews were still oppressed, as they have been for the past 500 years and even longer than that.
mg2

Con

mg2 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Leo.Messi

Pro

My last argument is, that, not only have the Jews been oppressed for the past 500 years, but they have even been oppressed before that! Take the great inquisition for example.

I. The great inquisition.
The Inquisition was a Roman Catholic tribunal for discovery and punishment of heresy, which was marked by the severity of questioning and punishment and lack of rights afforded to the accused.

While many people associate the Inquisition with Spain and Portugal, it was actually instituted by Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) in Rome. A later pope, Pope Gregory IX established the Inquisition, in 1233, to combat the heresy of the Abilgenses, a religious sect in France. By 1255, the Inquisition was in full gear throughout Central and Western Europe; although it was never instituted in England or Scandinavia.

Initially a tribunal would open at a location and an edict of grace would be published calling upon those who are conscious of heresy to confess; after a period of grace, the tribunal officers could make accusations. Those accused of heresy were sentenced at an auto de fe, Act of Faith. Clergyman would sit at the proceedings and would deliver the punishments. Punishments included confinement to dungeons, physical abuse and torture. Those who reconciled with the church were still punished and many had their property confiscated, as well as were banished from public life. Those who never confessed were burned at the stake without strangulation; those who did confess were strangled first. During the 16th and 17th centuries, attendance at auto de fe reached as high as the attendance at bullfights.

In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews. However, disputes about Maimonides" books (which addressed the synthesis of Judaism and other cultures) provided a pretext for harassing Jews and, in 1242, the Inquisition condemned the Talmud and burned thousands of volumes. In 1288, the first mass burning of Jews on the stake took place in France.

In 1481 the Inquisition started in Spain and ultimately surpassed the medieval Inquisition, in both scope and intensity. Conversos (Secret Jews) and New Christians were targeted because of their close relations to the Jewish community, many of whom were Jews in all but their name. Fear of Jewish influence led Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand to write a petition to the Pope asking permission to start an Inquisition in Spain. In 1483 Tomas de Torquemada became the inquisitor-general for most of Spain, he set tribunals in many cities. Also heading the Inquisition in Spain were two Dominican monks, Miguel de Morillo and Juan de San Martin.

First, they arrested Conversos and notable figures in Seville; in Seville more than 700 Conversos were burned at the stake and 5,000 repented. Tribunals were also opened in Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia. An Inquisition Tribunal was set up in Ciudad Real, where 100 Conversos were condemned, and it was moved to Toledo in 1485. Between 1486-1492, 25 auto de fes were held in Toledo, 467 people were burned at the stake and others were imprisoned. The Inquisition finally made its way to Barcelona, where it was resisted at first because of the important place of Spanish Conversos in the economy and society.

More than 13,000 Conversos were put on trial during the first 12 years of the Spanish Inquisition. Hoping to eliminate ties between the Jewish community and Conversos, the Jews of Spain were expelled in 1492..

The next phase of the Inquisition began in Portugal in 1536: King Manuel I had initially asked Pope Leo X to begin an inquisition in 1515, but only after Leo's death in 1521 did Pope Paul III agree to Manuel's request. Thousands of Jews came to Portugal after the 1492 expulsion. A Spanish style Inquisition was constituted and tribunals were set up in Lisbon and other cities. Among the Jews who died at the hands of the Inquisition were well-known figures of the period such as Isaac de Castro Tartas, Antonio Serrao de Castro and Antonio Jose da Silva. The Inquisition never stopped in Spain and continued until the late 18th century.

By the second half of the 18th century, the Inquisition abated, due to the spread of enlightened ideas and lack of resources. The last auto de fe in Portugal took place on October 27, 1765. Not until 1808, during the brief reign of Joseph Bonaparte, was the Inquisition abolished in Spain. An estimated 31,912 heretics were burned at the stake, 17,659 were burned in effigy and 291,450 made reconciliations in the Spanish Inquisition. In Portugal, about 40,000 cases were tried, although only 1,800 were burned, the rest made penance.

The Inquisition was not limited to Europe; it also spread to Spanish and Portugese colonies in the New World and Asia. Many Jews and Conversos fled from Portugal and Spain to the New World seeking greater security and economic opportunities. Branches of the Portugese Inquisition were set up in Goa and Brazil. Spanish tribunals and auto de fes were set up in Mexico, the Philippine Islands, Guatemala, Peru, New Granada and the Canary Islands. By the late 18th century, most of these were dissolved.

---http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

As you can see, even before the 500 years, the Jews were oppressed just because of their religion and ethnicity.
The Jews have been oppressed for the past 500 years and even before that.
As I believe I have proven in this debate.
And even after the inquisition came the Lutheran anti-Semitic doctrines,
Then came the Pogroms/The protocols of the elders of Zion
Then came the holocaust.
These people have been through a lot.
They have been oppressed for most of there history in the A.D years.

Thank you all.
mg2

Con

mg2 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
27 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Leo.Messi 2 years ago
Leo.Messi
My three arguments are
1.Martin Luther's promotion of antisemitism
2.the Holocaust
3. The expulsion from Europe
I will present each one at a time, so please be patient.
Thanks guys.(and girls)
Posted by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
Im u interpretation is that the pro has the BOP and would have to prove 500 years of oppression that is not only severe but has been perpetually occurring that entire time.

If I show a 5 year gap in persecution that should be enough.
Posted by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
Well, I think you and I have a different perception of what BoP is here. I agree that Con carries the more difficult burden in order to win the debate, by far, but the basic burden of proof, at least from my perspective, is on Pro. Again, pretty sure we agree on the basic realities here, even if we're defining them differently.
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
Emilrose
The burden very much lies on Con. Obviously Pro would have to substantiate his argument and take advantage of the many different sources/examples out there supporting it; but it's up to Con to reject and refute his assertion, and more importantly: prove that the Jews have not had historical oppression.

"Oppression" actually makes it easier for Pro as it can constitute a number of things, not necessarily of violent nature.
Posted by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
I don't think you'll find disagreement from me here. I'm well aware of all of these examples and more, just trying to explain where I see the burden lies. There's a reason I'm not taking up the challenge after all.
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
Emilrose
For example, Jewish persecution existed in Germany long before the Holocaust. Initially it began with burning, then as society progressed a little more tolerance prevailed; however, German Jews (in the 17th-18th century) were still forced to change their original names and adopt German ones.
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
Emilrose
If there's strong enough evidence presented (and it's certainly available) there wouldn't be a lot to contest.

As I stated in previous comments, events such as the Crusades and Spanish Inquisition, Russian pograms, would suggest that Jewish persecution *has* been a reoccurring theme throughout the centuries. In fact when the historical persecution is looked at in more detail, it's astonishing how many cases you actually find.
Posted by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
I think it's possible for Con to contest that reasonably, but I can see where you're coming from. Still, Pro would have to at least prove that it's been relatively consistent over those 500 years, at least as I see it.
Posted by Emilrose 2 years ago
Emilrose
Pro did not actually claim that the oppression was "continuous", though. The only thing that's he's required to prove is the exact resolution: that Jews have been oppressed throughout 500 years; which is again very easily supported. Not in terms of violent conflict but also severe economical harshness that has been endured by certain Jewish groups. For example, even in the Middle East were Jews had fairly relative peace--they generally lived in ghettos, particularly in countries like Morocco and Yemen.

The "500 year period" only really applies to the time span in which oppression has took place, and once again; there are numerous cases to highlight.
Posted by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
Yeah, I agree that the difficulty is mainly placed on Con, though one could argue that the burden is on Pro to provide information that proves that severe oppression was basically continuous across the last 500 years. The issue is that, if you're talking about all Jews at all times, it's difficult to say that there was no severe oppression at any point with any subset. Jews have continually faced oppression in some way, shape or form in many countries over long periods of time. If the topic was "Whether a substantial portion of Jews have been oppressed for the past 500 years", it would have room for argument. Given that the topic could apply to any number of Jews anywhere at any time, it's nearly impossible to do this without heavily challenging him on definitions.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Zarroette 2 years ago
Zarroette
Leo.Messimg2Tied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro's entire, referenced argument went uncontested, so sources and arguments to Pro. Conduct to Pro for Con's round forfeits.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
Leo.Messimg2Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture
Vote Placed by Kylar 2 years ago
Kylar
Leo.Messimg2Tied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture by con throughout most of the debate, and the fact that I agree with Pro gives 7 points to him.