The Instigator
Dave_82
Con (against)
Losing
10 Points
The Contender
vardas0antras
Pro (for)
Winning
13 Points

Whether or not the prophecies in the bible can be used as evidence for the existence of god

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/18/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,702 times Debate No: 13709
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (4)

 

Dave_82

Con

I do not believe the prophetic accuracy of the bible should be used as evidence for the existence of god simply because there are too many accurate prophecies from too many other sources. From ancient civilizations such as the Mayans, Sumerians, and Egyptians to more modern day prophets such as Edgar Cayce. The ancient civilizations used perfectly natural means to predict the future such as mathematics and astronomy. They noticed patterns in the world and were able to use these patterns to make incredibly accurate predictions about any number of subjects. It is for these reasons that I think, while the bible does have accurate prophecies, that the accuracy should be attributed to the prophets themselves, not god and not the book that happened to feature them.
vardas0antras

Pro

Can prophecy be used as evidence for the Christian God? Absolutely.
Now lets dive into my opponents objections:

1.there are too many accurate prophecies from too many other sources
I need sources and examples.

2.the ancient civilizations used perfectly natural means to predict the future such as mathematics and astronomy.

The Bible contains unpredictable types of prophecies. For example:
The return of the Jews to Israel is the key to bible prophecy. Most other endtime prophecies depend on the Jewish people living in Israel and not scattered amongst the Gentiles. Israel has not existed as a nation since hundreds of years before the birth of Christ. Israel was established on May 15, 1948.Ain't that something? It goes even deeper as shown by this website:
http://therefinersfire.org...

My opponent has provided no further arguments hence Ill leave it at that.
Debate Round No. 1
Dave_82

Con

Very well, I will provide my opponent with the requested examples and sources, but I will limit it to three of them so as not to take too much time.
1. Well known author Ray Bradbury, in his book Fahrenheit 451 (1953), painted a mental picture of a future world with eerie similarities to the one we live in today. First off, he spoke of banks having automated tellers that were in operation 24 hours a day. Secondly, several of the homes had wall televisions similar to the hanging plasma TVs we have today, and some highly expensive homes even have full-size wall TVs nearly identical to the ones in Bradbury's book. Finally the book spoke of voting via the television such as is done today on various reality shows.

2. http://www.edgarcayce.org... is a summary of many of Edgar Cayce's prophecies.

3.http://forums.abrahadabra.com... is a similar collection of prophecies as above, but from the Mayan civilization.

Concerning my opponent's argument about the return of Israel as a nation and the Jews' return, my rebuttal is simply that it is a perfect example of prophecy causing reality. The American and Western European governments knew about the prophecy and took it upon themselves to make it happen. The same could be said of the Jews' willingness to return. They knew it was supposed to happen, so they went along with it. The predictions were made in the Old Testament which, as I'm sure my opponent is aware, is almost exactly the Torah, word for word, so the Jews had easy access to the same prophecy.
vardas0antras

Pro

Because I don't have to address the prophecies my opponent has shown to win, I wont (I was simply testing if you're rambling in the first place). Though I'm strongly unsatisfied with what you've presented. "Why" should be partly explained in the further paragraphs.

Time:
Cons argument fails when one considers the background of the the writers. For example Hosea was born before Jesus was. He had no idea that America existed and one must remember in the times he lived something like electricity or even visiting Europe was almost inconceivable. There is no doubt that the "how" question couldn't be answered in his times nor could be answered by the generation which followed and so forth for a long amount of time. I suppose he thought that it would be done by some extravagant miracle.

Explanation:
"The American and Western European governments knew about the prophecy and took it upon themselves to make it happen." For non-believers this is needed furthermore this is a great statement hence some strong evidence would be needed. Not only you have to prove that it was encouraged but that it was also strongly supported. The evidence for the contrary is found in the BBC website. I must remind you that I'm not talking about the relationship USA and Israel share now but we're talking about the times when it was established, some time before and after.

The Odds when accepting what my opponent said as true:
Let BBC do the explanations for me:
http://news.bbc.co.uk...
also:
http://www.suite101.com...

I feel a bit of resentment for not building a cumulative case but this shouldn't hinder me much. It is my stance that the return of the Jews is extremely improbable and couldn't have been predicted by "mathematics and astronomy" especially by a man living over 2000 years ago. The more prophecies one includes the more obvious this becomes but I think that this one prophecy is more than enough.
Debate Round No. 2
Dave_82

Con

Somehow my opponent thinks that I inferred that Hosea knew about how Israel would be re-instituted, but I never said anything of the sort. I willingly admit that he had no idea how it would happen or that he could even fathom that it was possible for it to happen the way it did. All he said was that it would happen. Therefore, the first segment of Pro's argument is nullified. As to the second segment, where he requests that I provide evidence to the claim that the active world powers intentionally made the prophecies come true, it is nearly impossible to prove what was going on inside the head of the world leaders at the time. My saying what I did about the governments was not me claiming that was exactly why and how it happened, I was merely offering a logical explanation based on what is known. I will, however provide what evidence I can that led me to such a conclusion. Perhaps I should have been clearer that I was merely explaining a natural. logical explanation as to how the prophecy came true. I just thought that it would be inferred due to the fact that I have not denied the power of prophecy, I have just denied that such prophecies come from God. While it is true that the prophecies from the ancient civilizations came from math and astronomy, I also used Edgar Cayce as a reference and his prophecies were nothing like that and probably more unpredictable than Hosea's (such as the stock market crash of 1929). The prophecies themselves are not the basis of this debate, it is whether or not they can be used as evidence of god. There is no evidence that these prophecies came directly from god. There is no difference between biblical prophets such as Hosea, Daniel, and John the Revelator or more modern day ones like Ray Bradbury and Edgar Casey except the time period in which they lived. The reasons that I came to the conclusion that it was prophecy causing reality are as follows:
1. The primary countries that were involved in making the re-institution of Israel as a nation were the United States, the United Kingdom, and the Soviet Union.

2. The leaders of those countries were Harry S. Truman (U.S.A.), King George VI (U.K.) and Stalin (U.S.S.R.)

3. President Truman was a Southern Baptist, King George was Anglican/Episcopalian, and Stalin, who though commonly thought of as an atheist, was actually Christian. This is revealed in an interview with his daughter Svetlana Alliluyeva Stalin. (Link #3 below if you want to verify)

4. The USA and the UK were two of the first countries to sign Israel into independence from Britain, and the USSR agreed three days later.

With this information you see that the nations with Christian leaders set it in motion. Therefore the conclusion I drew about how the prophecy came to pass is quite logical, but none of that really matters since I said myself in the description that I admit the prophecies were accurate. What I dispute is that they can be connected to God other than the fact that the prophets lived during the time those books of the bible were written. The biggest argument I encounter with this subject is that none of the prophecies are wrong, so let me address that fact. The biblical prophecies are timeless. For a prophecy to be proved wrong, there has to be a time limit on it. Without some kind of time-frame the world can go on forever and still be waiting on it to come true. If I make a prediction that we will create a virus that destroys mankind and say nothing more, then millions of years later it will still not be proved wrong unless the world ends. On the contrary, if I say the virus in question came from trying to cure AIDS then when AIDS is actually cured without a killer virus I would be proved wrong. It is this strategy the biblical prophets used to maintain 100% accuracy, since the only real time-frame given is the end times. Starting with the Rapture, then the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation, and finally the Millennial Kingdom. Since they all fall into the category of "end times" then they will never be proven right or wrong as long as the human race continues. In closing, the biblical prophecies cannot be used as evidence for the existence of God because they are set up to never be proven wrong as explained above and because prophecies and prophets have been around all throughout history and are not inclusive to the bible. It is up to my opponent to dispute these facts and show why and how the prophecies can be accredited to God. Below are the sources for the reasons I gave for the conclusion about Hosea's prophecy.

1. http://www.nndb.com...

2. http://www.adherents.com...

3. http://wiki.answers.com...
vardas0antras

Pro

Here are the two main argument which my opponent makes, everything I have written below these two arguments are small details, furthermore I argue that my opponent hasn't visited the link I gave him:
http://therefinersfire.org...
To prove this I will only use arguments that can come from a website I've just given.

1.The Prophecies Came to Pass logically
Here he argues that because of the Christian leaders this prophecy came to pass quite naturally.
I argue that when this prophecy was written there was nothing logical, normal or probable about it.
As one can see here:
http://therefinersfire.org...
Furthermore I don't see an alternative to a logical fulfillment with the exception of an extravagant miracle (which was probably what the prophet imagined would happen). An extravagant miracle can be anything from all Jews teleporting to Israel to something involving flying unicorn with its tail on fire !!!
2. Prophecies are timeless.
Here my opponent argues that the Bible prophecies are timeless however thats not true as you can see here:
http://therefinersfire.org...
Some of these prophecies are very precise and must be fulfilled in a certain amount of time. Some of these prophecies must be fulfilled in the right order.

The theme of me regretting for not building a cumulative case is very vivid in this debate but I realize that I don't need to have this to win. Furthermore its obvious that my opponent hasn't even visited the lousy website I presented which funnily enough contains enough information for me to win this debate.

The website that won this debate:
http://therefinersfire.org...

Because of Cons obvious narrow mind (Didn't visit my website) I urge a Pro vote.

Vote Pro

Below are some other points refuted but this debate hangs on whatever the previous two points are valid.

Time:
"I willingly admit that he had no idea how it would happen or that he could even fathom that it was possible for it to happen the way it did."
No one would make a prediction unless one sees at least a small possibility.
" the first segment of Pro's argument is nullified" No because you never addressed the most important parts of this fact.
"I was merely offering a logical explanation based on what is known" While ignoring the Bible and God as a possibility consideration.
" I have not denied the power of prophecy" One can't predict things the Bible predicted without God though it could be a one big coincidence. However that would be an irrational conclusion.

Edgar Cayce:
If we reject the deserved criticism:
http://www.intuitive-connections.net...
I still argue that the return of the Jews is still less likely considering the place and time the prophet was when he predicted this.

" There is no evidence that these prophecies came directly from god" If this is untrue then the prophets lied and if the prophets lied, there is no reason to believe the prophets which would make the prophecies untrue. However the prophecies have been fulfilled hence it cam from God.

Modern Prophets:
Because of the amount of rounds I have been given, Ill debate under the assumption that these modern prophets never made a mistake nor is there any correct criticism. How does that make the Bible prophecies, likely or even possible when predicted ? Again I feel sorry for not building a cumulative case but your notion even with my one prophecy is ridiculous.

The final Paragraph:
"With this information you see that the nations with Christian leaders set it in motion"
You have ignored the many reasons why this prophecy is unlikely even with the Christian leaders which I have given in the previous round.
" It is up to my opponent to dispute these facts " I laugh at that, you're the one who provided a bias view of these modern prophets.

I thank you for reading this despite it not being necessary :).

Vote Pro
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by vardas0antras 6 years ago
vardas0antras
To make sure you receive my splendid response:

Two people reading it with different results"

I am afraid your comment could be only said of one didn't read genesis, yes there are different interpretations but what you said isn't a matter of interpretation but of ignorance (not reading or perhaps reading the book but sadly skipping a line or two, we all make mistakes lol)

"Do you think it contains a good moral structure?"
Well um this website says noooooo:
http://www.evilbible.com......
So I suppose my open minded open and truth searching brain says no.
XD No offence but that ought to be closer to truth than reading the bible.

"Get off this trip about me lying."
Obvious is obvious, you are a liar and a bad one too, if you had read the Bible your dumb comment wouldn't be here, thats a fact I know for sure !!!!

Awaited rebuttal:
Of all clean beasts take seven and seven, the male and the female. Genesis 7:2
Did you read the Bible ?

:) Don't worry this is much more common than you think so I really don't care if you lied, feel free to contact me.
Posted by vardas0antras 6 years ago
vardas0antras
Meh as long as you don't walk around thinking that this prophecy had any chance of being fulfilled for over 19 centuries, I'm fine.
Posted by Demauscian 6 years ago
Demauscian
I made the comment after reading the first round, before reading further. But I do still stand by the argument that it was self-fulfilling.
Posted by vardas0antras 6 years ago
vardas0antras
" is an example of self-fulfilling prophecy"
Though I'm glad that you gave me 3 points, I must say that I have already explained this.
Posted by Demauscian 6 years ago
Demauscian
Pro, the establishment of Israel is an example of self-fulfilling prophecy, the bible said it would happen and then people had the chance and made it happen.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 6 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
Dave_82vardas0antrasTied
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Vote Placed by m93samman 6 years ago
m93samman
Dave_82vardas0antrasTied
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Vote Placed by Demauscian 6 years ago
Demauscian
Dave_82vardas0antrasTied
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Vote Placed by MattPalumbo 6 years ago
MattPalumbo
Dave_82vardas0antrasTied
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