The Instigator
GiantSpoonMan
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Mikal
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points

Which champion is the strongest jungler in League of Legends

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Mikal
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/28/2013 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,110 times Debate No: 37109
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (1)

 

GiantSpoonMan

Pro

If you wish to accept this debate please say so in the comment section.

I would like to clarify the rules of this debate.

1. First round is acceptance plus choosing which champion you believe is the strongest jungler.
2. Second round is stating your argument. In other words you cannot mention my argument in this round.
3. Third round will be a cross examination from each side.
4. The final round will be your wrap up / rebuttal.
5. Please provide a lank with all of your champions stats, moves, etc. in the second round.
6. This may seem obvious but I will say it none the less. You may NOT chose the same champion I do.
7. In this debate we will assume each champion is played to his/her maximum potential.

Alright that's about it for rules, this debate is just for fun, no need to get too angry. :)

i chose the champion Lee Sin.
Mikal

Con

I accept.

I will be arguing that J4 is a better jungler than lee sin overall. Bear in mind you have the BOP to show that your champion is in fact better than mind. All I have to do is show my champions is just as good or possibly better.
Debate Round No. 1
GiantSpoonMan

Pro

leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Lee_Sin <--- base stats, abilities etc.

FIrst off let's take a look at each of their ganking ability, pre and post level six. Both J4 and Lee Sin can usually pick up first blood right after getting double buffs. J4 simply does his e q combo on top of the enemy for a strong early gank. Some problems that occur when Jarvan ganks are, the opponent flashing his combo. If the enemy spots Jarvan before he can combo on top of them they can usually get away before any damage is dealt using the ability flash. He also has no way to detect someone such as akali or twitch who can turn invisible. Lee Sin's e and q both reveal invisible targets, making him very hard to hide from. Lee sins q is one of the best skills in the game due to the fact that it works even if an enemy flashes or jumps away. Lee Sin has more effective gank paths than any other jungler in the game. It is very difficult to ward against a Lee Sin do to the fact that he can gank from almost anywhere. Post six both champions have great banks, the difference is jarvans ultimate is not very effective against champions with a built in escape. Lee sin however can q to a target trying to escape, ward jump in front of them and kick them into his allies.

http://www.youtube.com...

Jarvan does clear small camps such as wraiths or wolves faster than lee sin due to his high aoe damage with q and e, but lee clears red and blue buff faster due to his passive and q damage. Lee has much more built in sustain than jarvan and scales better with lifesteal items because of this.

Lee sin is also much better at invading that J4, this is because lee sin has a gap closer with q but J4 cannot yet use his gap closer because he only has one ability.

In team fights these champions play very differently, J4 will jump using his great engage while lee waits for the chance to sneak in, slow everyone down and kick the adc into a bad spot. Because of this J4 usually ends up building more defensively while Lee goes for more damage.
Mikal

Con

Okay so lets take at look at what were are discussing. "Which champion is the strongest jungler in League of Legends". My adversary has taken on the BOP and has show that Lee Sin is the strongest. While I am arguing for Jarvan the fourth. Keep in mind that I do not have to show J4 is better, but simply as good as Lee Sin and his resolution is not upheld. I will however offer reasons as to why I think J4 is better. My adversary has taken such a strong BOP because no champion is really "stronger" than another in LOL. It is all based on situations.

Contention 1.

Abilities

Lets compare their abilities.


Lee Sin

Q - One tap with Q will start sonic wave which is a ball of energy that goes out and can mark an enemy from range. Hitting Q within a short time frame again after the initial time you hit Q, will activate resonating strike and send Lee sin lunging at the enemy he marked.

W- The first tap of W starts safeguard which is a shield. If you activate this on a allied champion, minion, or ward it pulls Lee sin toward that target. Tapping W again starts Iron Will and gives lee sin life steal

E - This is tempest. Lee hits the ground damaging all nearby enemies and if he taps E again it slows their movement and attack speed.

R- Dragons rage is his final move and it is a kick that Will send a target champion flying in the direction he chooses to kick them, while dealing nice damage


J4

Q - Dragon Strike. Jarvan lunges his spear at the enemy and damages enemies in a straight line. If this is used in conjunction with this E, he is pulled to the flag and knocks up all nearby enemies.

W - Golden Aeigs gives Jarvan a shield while slowing surrounding enemies

E - Demacian Standard is a flag that he throws out to a target location. It deals magic damage to the area in which it lands and grants himself and allies an attack speed bonus

R- Cataclysm is his final move. He lunges at an adversary creating a circular wall of stone surrounding them and everyone near him. Trapping them in it for around 4 seconds. If he hits the wrong mark, just tap r again to remove the wall



So I really didn't have the character limit to go into passives but we can see they are both really good at ganking. Both are extremely mobile and can get around. J4 has both solid team fighting abilities, and abilities that let him flourish in the jungle. J4 also has CC while Lee Sin basically relies on picking people apart quick and fast. Seeing as how Lee Sin offers no CC and J4 offers the same mobility but has CC along with it. J4 has all around better moves.



Contention 2

Ganking

As I have shown we can already see both champions are quite mobile. When Lee Sin Ganks, he will start off with his q and then tap it again to be pulled in to the enemy. He will then double tap e for damage and a slow. His W can be used to get out of sticky situations. He can even use W to chase down a enemy. Lee Sin is very mobile but a key component for making him good is him having wards to use his w on so he can float around. This is gimping him from buying pure items.

J4 with is e and w combo can pull himself to his flag auto. This acts as the ward or ally that Lee Sin needs and can be used at anytime. Since J4 has his automatically, he can always escape situations or create ganks without relying on ward jumping. Giving him a slight edge.



Contention 3


Team Comp

This is where I think my adversary loses. Both champions are amazing, but each can suck in the wrong team comp. Lee Sin is used in a mobile team while J4 is used in a CC team. He can lock them in with cataclysm and allow people to spam their ults without them escaping unless they have flash. So to say Lee Sin is stronger is so hard to say because it is entirely subjective, and each team comp can make one stronger than the other. view the youtube video I posted to view what CC can do to a team. If you have an adc like MF and support like zyra, you can just stack ults on top of his cataclysm. This just gives quick and easy death.




Contention 4

Pros Preference.

The Pros prefer J4 most of the time. J4 is picked or banned in a little over 50 percent of all games that happen in the LCS. While Lee Sin sits around 40 percent. Since the pros think J4 has a little bit more threat and is worth banning out , we can draw that he may be a better jungle or just as good.

http://lol.gamepedia.com...


In Closing

My adversary will be hard pressed to meet his BOP. He is claiming Lee Sin is stronger. Both champions are as strong as the team comp they are in and this varies. So for him to claim that Lee Sin is the strongest can be irrational in ways.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com...





Note I Like Lee Sin as you can see by the picture below








I just don't think you can say he is better than J4. Both are amazing and are made so by the team they are in.
Debate Round No. 2
GiantSpoonMan

Pro

GiantSpoonMan forfeited this round.
Mikal

Con

extend arguments
Debate Round No. 3
GiantSpoonMan

Pro

First I would like to apologize for not posting an argument last round.

I would also like to add that I enjoy playing J4 as well. My win/loss rate is 22-8 with him in ranked( i cannot post a picture of this at the moment because I am on a school computer which unfortunately, does not have League of Legends.)
You may check my facts by going to www.lolking.net and searching LeagueofJosiah. :)



Contention one

Jarvan has trouble ganking warded lanes because he only has one tool to get over walls. He must make a choice between positioning well for a gank and losing his knock up, or having his knock up but being seen early on. Lee sin does not have this problem because he has two abilities that let him get over a wall, q and w. If Jarvan does choose to get over a wall with his combo his gank is practically useless unless he has his ultimate.


When comparing ultimates we can see that Lee Sins is far superior. Lee sins ultimate does more damage and can do damage to more than one target also knock up any enemies hit by the kicked target. Jarvans ultiamte only does single target damage and can easily be avoided by an escape, even vaynes tumble can escape Jarvans ultimate.

Lee sin is also one of the strongest early game 1v1 champions and can easily pick off the enemy jungler by waiting at a buff or camp. This is due to his sustain, attack speed/movespeed debuff, passive which grants him attack speed and huge Q damage.


Contention two

Lee sin can be in a vertually any team comp. This is because he can jump in, slow the enemy teams movement and attack speed, then jump right back out. If someone like Jarvan tries to initiate on a squshy ad carry Lee can shield the carry and kick Jarvan back into place. While on the other hand if Lee kicks the ad carry into his team there is almost no chance of escape.


if Lee sin engages and realzes he is in danger he can escape with his w. If Jarvan make the same mistake, he will die unless he has flash. This makes Jarvan a much riskier engager due to the fact that he is easy to melt before his team has a chance to back him up.

Lee sin can also be played as a mobile assasin in team fight waiting for the right moment to one shot the ad carry or ap carry then safely join his team.

Contention three

The reason Jarvan is picked more often in pro games is because he is much easier to pick up and be effective with than Lee Sin. There are players such as insec who make the other team ban Lee Sin every game because of how effective he is with the champion. It would not make since for a pro to try and pick up a new champion who will take time to master when they are always competing to be the best.

Thank you for a fun debate, and I again apologize for not posting the previous argument.
Mikal

Con

Rebuttal 1

Jarvan has trouble ganking warded lanes because he only has one tool to get over walls.

I disagree with this. He may have one tool to get over them which is his flag then Q combo to pull him to it, but the cooldown is literally 5 seconds. He can simply bipass the wards, and wait for the gank or go straight into cataclysm. On bottom lane, if you start top side, he can come around from blue. Set up into that tri, throw his flag into the bush at river and pull himself to it. That allows him to miss any wards at dragon. On top he can go around to tri and go over the wall the same way. He is very flexible and mobile.

As far as ultimates, lee sins ult is not better. It may have more base dmg and knock them backwards but it does not offer the CC that J4 brings. if you do land the full knock up combo, into cataclysm. It is deadly and is almost a death sentence. If you have someone like miss fortune behind him, his ult just keeps them locked into place for her ult to spray them down. It also works well with twitch and many other CC champs. I pulled off a 2 second quadra because of this yesterday as well. Just with mf and J4 vs 4 people. It offers so much utility and CC that it far surpasses lee sins ult.


Rebuttal 2

Lee sin can be in a virtually any team comp

While this is true in a way, but not the point I was making. Any champ can be in any team comp. That is obvious, but the question is can he excel in certain team comps. When comparing a CC comp, J4 brings way more utility and CC thanLee Sin while possessing the same ganking potential and map accessibility.




Contention 3

The reason Jarvan is picked more often in pro games is because he is much easier to pick up and be effective with than Lee Sin


Notice my adversary says he is more effective than lee sin in pro games most of the time. This just supports my case even more. It goes to show that no one champ is better, but relevant to the person playing and the team comp they are in.





In Closing

I have enjoyed this but I feel I have gone above and beyond. While Lee Sin is a great champion to play, he is most certainly not the best. He may be one of the most picked jungles, but as far as who is best, it is completely dependent on the person playing the champion and what team comp he excels in. I have demonstrated this thoroughly and precisely.

His resolution can not be upheld.
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Mikal 3 years ago
Mikal
its no problem :)
Posted by GiantSpoonMan 3 years ago
GiantSpoonMan
I'm very sorry for not posting an argument. I've just been too busy this week man.
Posted by Mikal 3 years ago
Mikal
It is no problem at all. I look forward to this debate.

I have a few accounts that I got to Gold and Plat before I sold them, so it is nice to to see a LOL fan on here. I will enjoy this :)
Posted by GiantSpoonMan 3 years ago
GiantSpoonMan
Sorry my response is taking awhile, I have been busy with school.
Posted by Mikal 3 years ago
Mikal
hoping not opening lol *
Posted by Mikal 3 years ago
Mikal
I wish to accept and opening, this is allotted because I am allowed to. Normally if you were choosing, the restrictions would be closed.

I had just read where it said post in comments, but I think you will find me suitable. Sorry for not noticing the fine print at the top prior to this, i had multiple browsers open.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Shadowguynick 3 years ago
Shadowguynick
GiantSpoonManMikalTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct for FF, as usual. Arguments to con for showing a jungler that is equal to or better than pro's choice.