The Instigator
SeantheScot
Pro (for)
Losing
21 Points
The Contender
tmar19652
Con (against)
Winning
46 Points

Which country is the worlds strongest Military power?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 11 votes the winner is...
tmar19652
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/3/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 8,511 times Debate No: 30904
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (63)
Votes (11)

 

SeantheScot

Pro

In this debate I and my Challenger will be looking into the country we be leave to be the worlds most powerful Military force.

Now the common belief is that America is the worlds most powerful Military, I disagree for me it's Israel.

Now my Competitor you are free to choose any country in the world as long as you can justify your choice.

Round 2- the first round will involve our arguments into why we be leave our chosen country is the best in the world
Round 3- this will be an opportunity for rebuttals
Round 4- this round will involve arguments about special reasons as to why our country is the best Military power. This includes areas like special forces, intelligent agencies and past military history
Round 5-will involve some rebuttals and closing arguments

Now I have established the rules I wish my opponent the best of luck
tmar19652

Con

I will argue that america has the worlds strongest military. I will also stipulate that alliances should not be accounted for, as they can get convoluted and overbearing in a 4000 character per round debate.
Debate Round No. 1
SeantheScot

Pro

Thank you for accepting this debate.

Allies will play no part in this debate as the US and Israel share the same allies and the debate will only involve the two countries.

Today Israel fields one of the most advanced Military forces the world has ever seen of which everyone is a part of as in Israel everyone preforms National serves in the Military, for 3 years on active services and then spend the rest of their life as a reservist.

Israel is a nation born out of war, which still remains a daily threat in Israel today. Israel found itself in it's first war just months after it's creation in 1947. Israel came under attack from everyone of their neighbours

Egypt
Jordan
Syria
Palestine
Lebanon

Despite initially being out numbered by Arab forces Israel stood victorious after just 9 months securing the independent of Israel as a nation

Army

The current size of the Israeli Ground Force is estimated at a roughly 125,000 active soldiers and
600,000 soldiers in reserve who can all be full mobilised with in 72 hours to defend Israel.

Israeli soldiers are highly trained in the use of some of the best weapons in the world such as the M4 and the Galil assault rifle. Israeli soldiers are all well trained in the Israeli marshal art of Krav Maga and are highly experanced in tank warfare, ground assaults and counterinsurgency.

Israel's main battle tank is the Merkava it is designed for rapid repair of battle damage, survivability, cost-effectiveness and off-road performance. This tank proved highly effective in the 1982 Lebanese war. The tank outperformed Syrian tanks mostly T-62s and proved largely immune to anti-tank weapons of the time (the AT-3 Sagger and RPG-7) that were used against it.This makes the Merkava one of the most dangerous pieces of military equitment in the world and more than able to go head to head with an M1 Abrams.

Airforce

The Israeli airforce is made up of over 700 of the worlds most advanced aircraft and is widely be leaved by many military experts to be the best airforce in the world.

Israeli pilots are some of the best trained in the world and are highly experienced in air to ground attacks.

The Airforce is most noted to its contribution during the 6 day war in which Israel lunched a preemptive strike on Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Israel used 300 aircraft to destroy a force of 1000 while at the same time supporting huge ground offensives.

Navy

The Israeli navy is small and is probably the only area were America has a clear advantage. However the ships used by the navy are highly advanced and more than suit their role in the Middle East.

Israel also excels in missile technology of which it is a world leader. Precision guided missiles are used widely by Israel forces to great effect which was demonstrated fairly recently which the leader of Hamas was killed in a rocket attack.

Israel is also noted for its Iron Dome Missile Defence system. Iron Dome was created to counter the rocket attacks on Israeli city from the Gaza Strip. Iron dome proved highly effective in the resent skirmish between the two. Many rockets were destroy while they were still in flight to their targets, saving the lives of many civilians.
tmar19652

Con


I will begin by showing the differences in military statistics between the USA and Israel. The USA will be listed in the first column, and Israel will be listed in the second column. I will also highlight the country with the advantage in each category.







































































Statistic



USA



Israel



Total Population



313,847,465



7,765,700



Manpower Available



145,212,012



3,511,190



Active military



1,477,896



187,000



Military reserves



1,458,500



565,000



Total Aircraft



15,293



656



Merchant Marine Strength



465



8



Total Navy Ships



290



65



Aircraft Carriers



10



0



Oil Production



10,128,000 bbl



100 bbl



Oil Consumption



18,949,000 bbl



231,000 bbl



Square Land Area (km)



9,826,675



20,770



Total Nuclear Warheads



7700



80





  1. 1. The US has nearly 8 times as many active soldiers and more than double the number of reserve soldiers as Israel. An even more astonishing advantage is the US having 41 times as much manpower available in a time of war. The US military could decimate the Israeli military in this department alone.

  2. 2. The US also has over 20 times as many aircraft, meaning that it can achieve both air and supply superiority over Israel.

  3. 3. The US has 10 aircraft carriers whereas Israel has none. This means that Israel could not even effectively attack the United States, whereas the United States could easily bring thousands of fighter jets to Israeli waters on aircraft carriers. We must also consider that the US has over 4 times the total navy strength as Israel.

  4. 4. As a final trump card, the US could destroy Israel hundreds of times over with its nuclear arsenal. The US can also hit Israel with the largest of its nuclear bombs, whereas even small Israeli nuclear weapons are at the edge of their range in trying to hit the United States.

  5. 5. If the US and Israel were to go to war. Israel would lose 18% of its military funding, as 18% of the Israeli military is financed by the US. Israel is already behind in every military category, decreasing funding would only be the “final nail in the coffin”.



Sources:



  1. 1. (http://www.globalfirepower.com...)

  2. 2. http://www.globalfirepower.com...

  3. 3. http://en.wikipedia.org...

  4. 4. http://en.wikipedia.org...

  5. 5. http://en.wikipedia.org...

  6. 6. http://www.motherjones.com...

Debate Round No. 2
SeantheScot

Pro

First I don't want to sink your argument but Nuclear weapons will not play a part in this, as they will cause Armageddon. This debate only involves conventional forces. (Sorry should have mentioned that at the start)

America may heavily outnumber Israel, but Israel has been vastly out numbered in every war they have ever fought, so their definitely used to being outnumbered by now.

Israelis themselves are Physiologically more prepared for war. They live with the dangers of war every day. Look at Vietnam, a small group of insurgents (the Vietcong) that were poorly equipped with Soviet and Chinese weapons, managed to in just 10 years, defeat America and force them to withdraw. Israel on the other hand as been fighting Islamic extremists since its creation in 1948 and is still fighting them today. So Israel's been in a constant war for 65 years.

Israel more than makes up for its small numbers with is highly experienced and very well trained soldiers. The American army by comparison goes through a shorter training program and lacks expectancies in many areas.

The American airforce yet again maybe bigger but they lack the experience of the Israeli airforce (the best in the world). As I have all ready shown with reference to the six day war Israel is more than able to fight against a much larger airforce. Plus Israel has an integrated missile defence network to counter any air threat.

With regard to the military funding Israeli receives from America, they can handle the loss of this funding. Israel can also still relay on supplies, funds and equipment from their second biggest supplier France. Israel also operates and maintains large stockpiles of Soviet equipment captured from Arab armies over the course of the Arab Israeli conflict.

Also out of the two countries America is far more Likely to struggle financially in efforts to mobilise a large army as their upkeep costs will be high. America would lose large amounts of their overseas trade, as well as a large part of their workforce. Plus now that America has gone over the sequester, their economy is going to drop and their military is going to face a $43 billion cut were as Israel would only lose $2.6 billion with the loss of Americans 18% in aid.

But the real area where Israel really outshines America is in special forces which me and my opponent will discus in the next round.

Something for you debate readers to look forward to ;)
tmar19652

Con

My opponent starts by stating that nuclear arms are disallowed, but this was never stated, or agreed upon, so there is nothing to ban them from this debate.

Since a 10-megaton nuclear bomb (average) destroys a 15-mile (24.2km) radius (1) from where it explodes, this means it will destroy about 1844 km2. The US has 7700 nuclear arms, which means it has the capability to destroy 14198800 km2. This means that the US can destroy Israel 684 times over. Israel has 80 nuclear weapons, which means they can destroy 147520 km2. This means that Israel can only destroy 15% of the United States. This is a clear victory as the United States would still be a country with 85% of itself remaining, however Israel would be nothing more than an irradiated wasteland, devoid of life. This would be a clear win for the United States!

My opponent states that Israel is more psychologically prepared for war; however, even if this is true, Israel is not equipped to take on a military dozens of times stronger that itself! We must also remember that America has been at war in the Middle East for over a decade, more than enough time to prepare for way.
My opponent then states that Israel makes up for small numbers with better training. However, on the rankings of the elite forces, Navy Seals outrank the Israeli Shayetet 13 (2). US Special Forces also comprise 5 of the top-ten, and Israel only has 1 in the top ten.

My opponent then makes the claim that the Israeli air force is better than the US air force, however this could not be more false. The US air force is universally cited as the world"s strongest air force, and possesses about as many airplanes as the rest of the world combined (3,4).

My opponent then states that the sequester will hurt the military, however the US will lose only 6% of their 672 billion dollar defense budget, a minuscule cut compared to what Israel stands to lose (5).

As a happy coincidence I have already proven that Israeli special ops are worse than US special-ops, along with Israel being militarily inferior to the US in every Way.

Sources:
1.http://www.labnol.org...
2.http://listverse.com...
3.http://topyaps.com...
4.http://www.siliconindia.com...
5.http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 3
SeantheScot

Pro

I didn't want nuclear weapons to be a part of this debate quite simply because no one wins a nuclear war but my opponent was adamant that nukes would be a part of the debate. If would like to see more on the nuke debate or if you just want a laugh Read the comments between us ;)

Ok on to special forces the topic I have most looked forward to.

Israeli Commandos are one of the most dangerous and effective special forces units in the world.

One of their most notable missions was the raid on Entebbe air base in Uganda. When an air France plane was hijacked by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. After flying to a number of airports in Europe the flight eventually landed in Entebbe Uganda. The terrorist hijackers were welcomed by Ugandan dictator Idi Amin and after some negotiations all the non Israeli hostages apart from the planes Captain were released. The hijackers demanded the release of 40 Palestinian being held in Israel, if they were not released the hostages would be executed. Israel refused to meet these demands refusing to be intimidated the Israelis planned a daring commando raid. 100 commandos boarded a transport plane heading for Uganda. The plane landed on the Entebbe runway, using a limo and two other cars to pose as Idi Amin to get close to the terminal here the hostages were being kept. The commandos burst out of the cars and stormed the building. Other commandos destroyed Ugandan airforce planes on the ground so they could not be peruse. (This was one of the most impressive operation in the world and I would highly recommend further reading)

The operation lasted 90 minutes
102 hostages were rescued
All the hijackers were kill along with 45 Ugandan soldiers
30 Russian MIGs where also destroyed
Only 1 Israeli commando was killed in the operation

As a result of the operation, the United States military developed highly trained rescue teams modeled on the Entebbe rescue. One notable attempt to imitate it was Operation Eagle Claw was the failed rescue of 53 American embassy personnel held hostage in Tehran during the Iran hostage crisis. Clearly they still have a lot to learn ;)

Israeli also runs the worlds most dangerous and successful intelligence agency Mossad. All Mossad agents are highly trained in close quarter battle drill, Krav Maga, shooting, counter intelligence and intelligence gathering.

Over the years Mossad has built up an impressive list of successes. Mossad spent much of its early life providing military intelligence as well as locating and killing former Nazis. But today with many of the Nazis dead (Most killed by Israeli) Mossad's main focus is on Hamas. Many of their main leaders have been assassinated by Mossad most recently Mahmoud Al-Mabhouh the leader of the Hamas military wing in a Dubai hotel in 2010.

Mossad also along with the CIA and the Pakistani intelligence agency was highly involved in getting weapons and equipment into Afghanistan during the soviet occupation.
tmar19652

Con


My opponent makes the claim that Israeli special forces are the best in the world, however on the top-10 special forces rankings, Israel ranks 4th, whereas US seal team 6 ranks 2nd (1)


Next, my opponent perpetuates the fallacy that the Mossad is better that the CIA. In fact the CIA ranks as first in the world among intelligence agencies, whereas the Mossad ranks 4th (2).


I will concede to my opponent that Israel may be better at rescuing hostages, but after the United States destroys Israel with nukes 684 times over, or tramples Israel with its military that is 10 times larger, this is a moot point, don’t you think?









Sources:



  1. 1. http://armedforcesmuseum.com...

  2. 2. http://www.smashinglists.com...

Debate Round No. 4
SeantheScot

Pro

Israel do have the worlds best special forces. They embark on operations that America special forces would never dream of. Israel is far more successful at performing special forces operations. Israel succeeded in their operation in Uganda were as America failed in their operation in Iran.

Today American special forces continue to get lessons on counterinsurgency tactics from Israel (learning from the best).

Also lets think about operational errors. When deploying to kill Osama Binladen US special forces managed to crash a Black Hawk helicopter, now this doesn't just show total incompetence on the terrorist side but also on US special forces. Now when was the last time you heard of an Israeli Special forces failure of this scale. The answer is never.

Now the most dangerous intelligence agency in the world is Mossad. The CIA maybe bigger (and better at staging Coups in foreign countries) but Israeli is far more effect at finding and killing terrorists. Think about it, it took the CIA 10 years to find Binladen. Mossad identified the the bombers of the London 7/7 attack to MI5 after three months.

The success of the Israeli intelligence agency is effective summed up by Gordon Thomas in his book entitled "Mossad- the worlds most effective killing machine" Enough said.

I never intended for Nuclear Weapons to play a part in this debate but my opponent has been adamant that they will play a part so hear is why America would technically lose (no one wins a nuclear war) a nuclear war with Israel.

360 million Americans dead
9,827,000 km2 of irradiated wast land
Few survivors
No chance for recovery

Israeli would only lose 7.5 million people
22,072 km2 of irradiated wast land

American lose based on the fact that they have Mutch higher loss of live and land.

Well with that this debate is at an end, I have enjoyed it greatly.
Now on that start voting for Israel or Mossad will find you ;)
tmar19652

Con


I have shown that the US is militarily superior to Israel in almost every way.


My Arguments that Still Stand:



  • The US nuclear arsenal could destroy Israel 684 times over, whereas the Israeli Nuclear Arsenal could only destroy 15% of the US. In reality Israel probably could destroy less of the united states due to faulty missiles or simply missing their targets, while the US only needs a .14% accuracy rate to decimate all of Israel.

  • I have shown and sourced arguments that show US special forces and intelligence agencies are better/stronger than their Israeli counterparts despite my opponents (un-sourced) arguments to the contrary.

  • The US has nearly 8 times as many active soldiers and more than double the number of reserve soldiers as Israel. An even more astonishing advantage is the US having 41 times as much manpower available in a time of war. The US military could decimate the Israeli military in this department alone.

  • The US also has over 20 times as many aircraft, meaning that it can achieve both air and supply superiority over Israel. The US air force is universally cited as the world’s strongest air force, and possesses about as many airplanes as the rest of the world combined.

  • The US has 10 aircraft carriers whereas Israel has none. This means that Israel could not even effectively attack the United States, whereas the United States could easily bring thousands of fighter jets to Israeli waters on aircraft carriers. We must also consider that the US has over 4 times the total navy strength as Israel.

  • If the US and Israel were to go to war. Israel would lose 18% of its military funding, as 18% of the Israeli military is financed by the US.


I have shown that the US military can destroy Israel in every way. Whether it be by Nuclear Weapons or conventional methods, Israel would lose the war on the grounds that it would no longer be able to exist as a country, not even factoring in the likely disproportionate loss of life on the Israeli side. I have shown the US military is superior, and thus I urge you to vote Con!!



As a final point, every one of my opponent’s arguments is un-sourced, so their entire argument is invalidated.


Debate Round No. 5
63 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by SeantheScot 4 years ago
SeantheScot
Cybertron what did American special force do with 50 men?. American special forces and the CIA find terrorists months after a terrorist attack, Israeli commandos and Mossad find them the next day;)
Posted by DWolf2k2 4 years ago
DWolf2k2
Sean, even if it is history, assume voters are coming in Tabula Rasa: Assume we don't know anything about the subject matter at hand. To just say 'It's History' doesn't work in Policy-Style Debating such as this (Parli-Style is a whole other story), and as such, if one side sources and the other side doesn't, on balance the edge is given to the one who sources because as a voter, I can check that source directly.
Posted by cybertron1998 4 years ago
cybertron1998
sean the US have a far larger and more advanced missile defence system in Greenland. and what your commandos did with 100 we did something greater with less than half of that it goes to show that the US special forces is far greater. and the helicopter crash shows no incompetence its just a simple mistake and the special forces still make mistakes.
Posted by tmar19652 4 years ago
tmar19652
He said facts like the quality of the Israeli military and that Israel could destroy the whole United States with Nukes. Things like that need to be cited. Also, why did you give him sources if he had none? That goes completely against voting etiquette!
Posted by Daktoria 4 years ago
Daktoria
History is an exception to citations. It's subject to detail.

For example, would you expect people to cite the existence of the American Revolution?

Would you expect people to cite the existence of the Yom Kippur War?

What about particular fronts? How about battles?

The degree of detail required for citation would be subjective, so to be fair, history doesn't need citation. It only needs to be checked.
Posted by tmar19652 4 years ago
tmar19652
It doesn't matter. Any argument based on facts that you do not source can be challenged, which is what I did. You have to cite your arguments.
Posted by Daktoria 4 years ago
Daktoria
No. History is history whether people cite it or not.

However, if people claim history that's actually not true, it's a critical error and totally invalidates their argument.
Posted by tmar19652 4 years ago
tmar19652
@Sean that's okay, but you have to put sources in your debate for it to count as facts.
Posted by SeantheScot 4 years ago
SeantheScot
Every thing I have said in this debate is a fact not just simply my own option. If you would like some verification please look at the Israeli Ministry of defence or simpily search Israeli Amry, Air Force ect. You will have no trubble seeing what I am saying is true ;)
Posted by Daktoria 4 years ago
Daktoria
Actually, I was countering how your supporters didn't bother reading the debate. They're obsessed with technological supremacy instead of looking at the esprit de corps and tradition.

Nuclear arsenals spell armageddon. When you said that Israel can't nuke all of America, that's unnecessary, so it's not a fair argument.
11 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by DWolf2k2 4 years ago
DWolf2k2
SeantheScottmar19652Tied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: If Pro wanted to rule nukes out of the argument, it should have said so in R1 as Pro carries Prima Facie which is why conduct goes to Con. Also, Con sourced stats and figures while Pro declined to and in Policy-style, sources are required and matter so sources to Con. S/P was about even, no glaring errors, and so Convincing went to Con on strength and weighing of evidence presented.
Vote Placed by josephd 4 years ago
josephd
SeantheScottmar19652Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro had more convincing arguments but didn't really cite sources
Vote Placed by imabench 4 years ago
imabench
SeantheScottmar19652Tied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: the lack of tangible sources or statistics from pro blew holes in his own argument, which con exploited by showing how much larger and stronger the US military is compared to Israel's.... Pro tried to dance around the numbers with claims that Israel is still stronger despite having smaller numbers, but they were based mostly on his own opinions rather then tangible evidence. Arguments to the con and sources to the con as well
Vote Placed by Lizard 4 years ago
Lizard
SeantheScottmar19652Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: No sources pro? That pretty much means I have to take everything con said over what pro said. Con gave real hard numbers on the difference is scale of both country's military and convinced me that this would allow for a sweeping victory against Israel.
Vote Placed by TUF 4 years ago
TUF
SeantheScottmar19652Tied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Countering qopel
Vote Placed by xXCryptoXx 4 years ago
xXCryptoXx
SeantheScottmar19652Tied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Loved the debate. Let's face it though, in this argument Bigger is Better.
Vote Placed by qopel 4 years ago
qopel
SeantheScottmar19652Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: CVB Zaradi
Vote Placed by Zaradi 4 years ago
Zaradi
SeantheScottmar19652Tied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Yeah, this one wasn't even close. Idk why I even have to have a reason for this. Also, six of my 7 points is countering Dakorita, since his RFD had nothing to do with what Sean argued. All of that was his own belief.
Vote Placed by Daktoria 4 years ago
Daktoria
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro does an excellent job in arguing quality before quantity, experience, morale, and nuclear armageddon. It's not even necessary to nuke all of America to consider a victory. Merely hitting main cities and metropolises would be devastating. Con's argument ultimately amounts to a spam attack which really isn't what power is about. Spamming power is unrefined and defeats the value of spoils of war. He should be grateful that Pro didn't take advantage of the number of, and influence, of Jews in American society whether in media, finance, real estate, information technology, psychology, or elsewhere who could supplement an Israeli war effort. Pro's familiarity with history is also superior whereas Con is obsessed with citing technology.
Vote Placed by ladygagadisco 4 years ago
ladygagadisco
SeantheScottmar19652Tied
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Total points awarded:15 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro keeps insisting that Israel is better, but he never cites any outside evidence, whereas Con does, which makes his arguments much more reliable.