The Instigator
MacMiller
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
thesouthwillrise
Pro (for)
Winning
4 Points

White Southerners are a nation

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
thesouthwillrise
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/2/2014 Category: People
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 650 times Debate No: 53922
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (1)

 

MacMiller

Con

I seen this debate and I'm eagerly waiting to destroy you in this debate. Please accept.
thesouthwillrise

Pro

Thank you opponent for finally giving me a chance to voice my opinion, because my other opponents just played the race card.
I hope that this debate can be polite and respectful.
I will argue that white southerners are a nation. I will use the word "nation" in it's both historical and Biblical definition: "A large group of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history". Nation can also refer to "a people, race, or tribe; those having the same descent, language, and history." http://en.wikipedia.org......



The second definition includes the word "race", which white is one. White southerners, or southrons, have a common language: English, a common culture: Southern culture, a common ethnicity: White (or, if you want to get specific, people from Northwest Europe), so therefore a common decent, and a common history, such as the civil war.



So White, North-Western European, English-speaking Southerners, are a nation.



The League of The South, a Southern Nationalist organization, has information further explaining what the southern nation is. I invite my opponent, or anyone, to check it out. I am aware that this group is considered a hate group by the SPLC, but this debate is not about if I am a racist, it is about if White Southrons constitute a nation.



Furthermore, I am not coming from any position of bigotry or hatred towards any group of people, I am simply stating the fact that white southerners are a nation.
Debate Round No. 1
MacMiller

Con

Hello. First of all I would like to thank you for taking this debate. I welcome you to this. Let's set the record straight before I proceed. I am not racist, nor am I against white people. I love everyone equally and I live around white people today (Northern).
With that being said lets move on.

You stated : "A large group of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history". Don't we all have a common ancestor? Current data suggest that modern humans evolved from archaic humans primarily in East Africa. A 195,000 year old fossil from the Omo 1 site in Ethiopia shows the beginnings of the skull changes that we associate with modern people, including a rounded skull case and possibly a projecting chin. http://anthro.palomar.edu...

Therefore you are a nation, however you aren't separate. Didn't white northerners and southerners come from Europe? To US?

"The second definition includes the word "race", which white is one. White southerners, or southrons, have a common language: English, a common culture: Southern culture, a common ethnicity: White (or, if you want to get specific, people from Northwest Europe), so therefore a common decent, and a common history, such as the civil war."

We all speak English. Not every white person in the South came from Northwest Europe. White Southerners are not any different from the North. You cannot be a separate nation because you wouldn't be any different than any other white person or black person for that manner. We all came from Africa. Another thing to point out is that "race" is not a word. Race does not exist :Dr. J. Craig Venter, president of Celera Genomics, the company that recently mapped the human genome, recently said of race and biology, "It is disturbing to see reputable scientists and physicians . . . categorizing things in terms of race."

Dr. Venter"s statements were emphatically backed by Dr. Joseph L. Graves Jr., author of The Emperor"s New Clothes: Biological Theories of Race at Millennium," in a recent New York Times interview.

"Possibly only six genes determine the color of a person"s skin," Graves, a professor of evolutionary biology and African-American Studies at Arizona University, said in the Times interview.

Six genes, out of the 30,000 to 40,000 genes that make us human, determine race. Graves further asserted what genome researches have been uncovering over several years as the mapping project has wound down: as far as biology is concerned, race doesn"t exist. http://www.foxnews.com...

You guys not any different from the rest of us. White Southerners are apart of the United States.
thesouthwillrise

Pro

"Not every white person in the South came from Northwest Europe."

I did not say that ALL White Southerners came from Northwest Europe, if it sounded like that to you, I will explain: The CULTURE of most White Southerners comes from an ethnic group called Ulster-Scots, or the Scotch-Irish. The culture of this ethnic group is what people think of when they think of the Appalachian mountains, because many, if not most Ulster-Scots immigrated to the mountains because for one, it reminded them of their homeland, and two, there was large anti-Irish and anti-Scottish sentiment in the US at this time, the early 1700s.

"White Southerners are not any different from the North. You cannot be a separate nation because you wouldn't be any different than any other white person or black person for that manner."

Let's start with the latter part of that statement "you wouldn't be any different than any other white person or black person." You don't have to look far to realize that whites are very different from blacks, culturally. Now scientifically, there are still some differences. For instance, most, (not all, most), black people tend to have larger noses than white people. This is not very disputed, so there are differences between us, culturally and scientifically.

"White southerners are not any different from the North." Again, cultural differences. (By the way, when I talk about southern culture, I am referring to the Ulster-Scots culture of Appalachia.) Again, no one disputes that the North and the South are not different culturally.

"We all speak English." This is not a fact, there are many White German immigrants who only know German, for example.

"We all came from Africa." That is an evolutionist opinion. I, as a Christian, believe that we all started in the Middle East, but that is another debate. No one is 100% sure that ALL humans came from Africa.

You guys not any different from the rest of us. White Southerners are apart of the United States." Again, different cultures, but I will get historically technical. The South was once the Confederate States of America, and a peace treaty was never signed, so technically, the CSA still exists, but is under occupation.
Debate Round No. 2
MacMiller

Con

"You don't have to look far to realize that whites are very different from blacks, culturally. Now scientifically, there are still some differences. For instance, most, (not all, most), black people tend to have larger noses than white people. This is not very disputed, so there are differences between us, culturally and scientifically."

Yes culturally speaking whites are different. Scientifically not so much. There are only 6 genes that code for color in the human genome. Look at my source I cited for you above.

"We all came from Africa." That is an evolutionist opinion. I, as a Christian, believe that we all started in the Middle East, but that is another debate. No one is 100% sure that ALL humans came from Africa. The oldest genetics found in humans are called the San Bushmen. That isn't debating evolution.

Lets define culture. Culture : : the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time.
http://www.merriam-webster.com...

You believe in the same God I do. Southern Cuisine is the same as what Blacks or whoever might eat down there.

This is not a fact, there are many White German immigrants who only know German, for example. The vast majority of Americans speak English and this is a fact. English " 229 million
Spanish " 35 million
Chinese languages " 2.6 million + (mostly speakers of Yue dialects such as Taishanese and Cantonese, with a growing group of Mandarin speakers)
Tagalog " 1.5 million + (Most Filipinos may also know other Philippine languages, e.g. Ilokano, Pangasinan, Bikol languages, and Visayan languages.)
French " 1.3 million
Vietnamese " 1.3 million
German " 1.1 million (High German) + German dialects like Pennsylvania German, Hutterite German, Plautdietsch, Texas German
Korean " 1.0 million
Russian " 881,000
Arabic " 845,000
Italian " 754,000
Portuguese " 731,000
French Creole " 659,000
Polish " 594,000
Hindi " 561,000
Japanese " 445,000
Persian " 397,000
Urdu " 356,000
Gujarati " 341,000
Greek " 326,000
Serbo-Croatian " 269,000
Armenian " 243,000
Hebrew " 222,000
Cambodian " 202,000

I live in PA. I happen to live around many White German Immigrants who speak English.

Technically speaking this isn't your land. It isn't mine either. We do not belong here. Native Americans were here first, but those Americans who arrived later have never gotten their story quite right. From the moment Columbus stepped off his boat in the Bahamas and called the people he met there "Indios""meaning people of India"Native Americans have been misrepresented, stereotyped, and simplified. Puritans assumed they were consorting with the devil in the forest. White expansionists branded them ruthless warriors. Even their nineteenth-century defenders often described them as "noble savages." http://www.shmoop.com...

Europeans brought over there diseases. Native Americans have been affected by the disease and health concerns throughout their history, but a major turning point in Native American disease presence was with the arrival of Europeans. This ushered in what is termed the Columbian Exchange. During this period European settlers brought many different technologies and lifestyles with them, but one of the most harmful effects of this exchange was the arrival and spread of disease.

Native Americans, to the lack of prior contact with Europeans, had not previously been exposed to the diseases that were prevalent on the distant continent. Therefore they had not built up internal immunities to the diseases or formed any medicines to combat them. Europeans came into the New World bearing various diseases. Those infected with diseases either possessed them in a dormant state or were not quarantined in such a way that distanced them enough from Native Americans to not spread the diseases, allowing diseases to spread into epidemics.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

With this being said. White Southerners are not a nation because they do not belong here by history. Even after the Native Americans there were the Mexicans.

Nation : a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory. Again as I stated in my previous argument. We ALL have a common ancestor and we ALL speak a similar language. And we ALL inhabit a particular territory. We share a common history and a common culture.

You stated that you were a Christian. We could get into bible verses if need be. I can get even deeper in this discussion to prove that Blacks were the original. Uses bible verses not science.
thesouthwillrise

Pro

Let's look at your definition of nation: "Nation : a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory."

I will get slightly Biblical for this part. Noah's three sons Japeth, Shem, and Ham were the founders of the post-world nations. After the flood, Noah divided up the world into parts for his children. Japeth got Europe, and his descendants had white skin because they did not use nearly as much melanin compared to the other 2 nations. Shem, or Sem, received Asia, the Middle East, and the Americas, but this land was not inhabited by Native Americans for a while longer, but the Natives were descendants of far east Asians that have similar skin colours, and in the far east, the snow reflected on their skin and eyes, creating the "Asian eye" characteristic and "yellow" skin. Ham was granted Africa, and to survive in Africa, his descendants had to have more melanin or they would die of the intense heat found in Africa.


So, this means that all Black people are descended from Ham from Africa, and all European Whites are descended from Japeth, so obviously, we can not be related that closely. Let's bring up the definition again: "Nation : a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory." White southerners do not have to posses territory to be a nation, they simply have to inhabit it. And just because White southrons are a nation does not mean that other nations with different cultures, such as Cherokee, Black Southerners, Hispanic immigrants, cannot co-exist with Whites. But, culturally, almost every single individual human is different. But as one species, we do not have a unified culture. This is also true for the United States. There is no such thing as "American culture, because America is so diverse.

This is why Americans are not a nation and different cultural groups, such as white southerners and Cherokee, are.

Debate Round No. 3
MacMiller

Con

MacMiller forfeited this round.
thesouthwillrise

Pro

Argument extended. Vote PRO since con ffed.
Debate Round No. 4
MacMiller

Con

I'm glad we took this debate to the bible. Now let me tell you why you're wrong.

My opponent talks about Noah and his three skins. He also states that one of them had white skin. Now let me go as far as to say this is EXTREMELY incorrect. Why? White skin in the bible was a curse. White skin was seen as something odd and not natural. Whiteness is a curse. If you don"t believe me, read again the twelfth chapter of the book of Numbers. Miriam is cursed when God turns her skin "white as snow." You might say Miriam was the original "Snow White." In her case, white skin was a curse. I"m aware of a long history of black skin being considered a curse of God, but never white skin. I wonder why? "Whoop, there it is!" right smack in the Holy Bible. Whiteness is a curse. It was a sin for a believer to marry a non believer. Let's quote Daniel 7:9 : "As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. Hair like wool? Who has hair like wool? Not white people. You see? There are many evidence in the bible supporting that white skin was a curse.

Moses hand turned white in the bible. And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow.

Many southerners have a misinterpretation of the bible and misquote it. Also if you're giving me a bible scripture please give me verse and chapter so I may look it up.

Onto you Pro!
thesouthwillrise

Pro

Well, regardless of whether or not white skin is a curse, white southerners are a nation according to both of our definitions.

Your Bible verse does not support your claim that white skin is a curse. And, in case you didn't realize, white skin is not actually white, it is just a lighter version of tan. White is just what we call it. And you have forgotten that it is because that most people lived in the Middle East and North Africa, so that is why everyone was generally the same color. The table of nations shows when Noah divided the world between his sons, in genesis 10.

VOTE PRO!!
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by ChosenWolff 2 years ago
ChosenWolff
Dude, you only won that because the other neo confederate voted for you. Hell, he didn't even have an RFD.
Posted by thesouthwillrise 2 years ago
thesouthwillrise
Who says that they aren't spread out?

The encyclopedia of the stateless nations lists no less than 350 nations that do not posses territory.

And all white people are descended from Japheth, according to the Bible, so yes, we are united by common descent, and culture further differentiates us. And at 3 different points, we owned our own land.(west Florida, Texas, and the CSA).
Posted by aegis1000 2 years ago
aegis1000
I am in complete support of MacMiller. White southerners are NOT a nation. At best, they are a population bloc. Generally nations have land, but even using the contender's definition, white southerners are not a nation. Not all white southerners share a similar culture, descent, heritage, ect. To do so would be to deny that any immigrants have entered whatsoever and all white southerners behave basically the same way. In this global era, it is impossible to have an untarnished, pure culture, heritage, ect., and therefore your definition is flawed as using that even in the loosest sense, nations would be microscopic and scattered across the planet.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Iamaconfederate 2 years ago
Iamaconfederate
MacMillerthesouthwillriseTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: FF