The Instigator
mentalist
Pro (for)
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The Contender
gomergcc
Con (against)
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'White' flight stems from subliminal guilt and a desire to have an unjust advantage

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/21/2014 Category: Society
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 799 times Debate No: 67392
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
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mentalist

Pro

The scenario of 'white' flight that is manifested in the United States stems from the subliminal guilt of non-melaninated peoples regarding the past and present systems of racial and economic bias and discrimination developed,propagated and maintained by the evaders and their ancestors. The scenario also emanates from a desire of those evaders to procure and maintain an unjust and inequitable advantage in areas such as housing, schooling, etc.. Shared Bop
Con will have to show that 'white' flight stems from a cause not aforementioned.
gomergcc

Con

I will be argument that what known as “white flight” as several reason and is not a simple as my opponent claims.

“White flight-the move of white city-dwellers to the suburbs to escape the influx of minorities.

Reasons include, but not limited to, the following:


1. Intentional racism
2. Unintentional racism
3. Some peoples preference to live in suburbs
4. Economic opportunities that having to do with a person’s race.
5. Economic opportunities that do not have anything to do with a person’s race.

Debate Round No. 1
mentalist

Pro

I do not intend to make it seem simple.
racism as defined by Dictionary.com
noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

RACE as defined by Merriam-Webster dictionary on merriam-webster.com
1. chiefly Scottish : the act of running
2. a : a strong or rapid current of water flowing through a narrow channel
b : a watercourse used industrially
c : the current flowing in such a course
3. a : a set course or duration of time
b : the course of life
4 a : a contest of speed
b plural : a meeting in which several races (as for horses) are run
c : a contest or rivalry involving progress toward a goal
5 : a track or channel in which something rolls or slides; specifically : a groove (as for the balls) in a bearing

White guilt - the individual or collective guilt felt by some white people for harm resulting from racist treatment of people of color by whites both historically and currently.[1] White guilt has been described as one of the psychosocial costs of racism for white individuals along with empathy (sadness and anger) for victims of racism and fear of non-whites. [1]

White privilege (or white skin privilege) - a term for societal privileges that benefit white people in western countries beyond what is commonly experienced by the non-white people under the same social, political, or economic circumstances. These privileges are unearned and are distributed based on values of the dominant group, which in the west is white people. According to McIntosh and Lee, whites in a society considered culturally a part of the Western World enjoy advantages that non-whites do not experience. This leads to the controversy over whether or not White people should be able to enjoy these privileges. The term denotes both obvious and less obvious passive advantages that white persons may not recognize they have, which distinguishes it from overt bias or prejudice. These include cultural affirmations of one's own worth; presumed greater social status; and freedom to move, buy, work, play, and speak freely. The effects can be seen in professional, educational, and personal contexts. The concept of white privilege also implies the right to assume the universality of one's own experiences, marking others as different or exceptional while perceiving oneself as normal. [2]

Blockbusting - a real estate practice, also contributed to historical white flight, and may continue to do so in some regions. This refers to the sale of a property in a primarily white neighborhood to a black family, facilitated by a realtor. When neighboring white households learn of the sale, they fear their their property values will go down; they sell their properties, vanishing into the suburbs. Meanwhile, the realtor stands to make a significant profit. [5]
Firstly, I would like to state that race is a fictional concept created to foster dissension and create arbitrary divisions. So, while racism exists - race does not. The reasons for these divisions is to insure that unity is not attained among the masses and distract them from the appropriation of resources by the wealthy. (reference Bacon's rebellion) [3] That being said, this false concept has been accepted by many who use it to provide a distorted self-concept. Terms like 'black', 'white', 'yellow', and 'red' are meaningless misnomers used to cajole the uninformed.
In the case of 'white' flight, the so called 'white' individuals have bought into the misconceptions created by the false ideology of race. These individuals accept the false labels because of the advantages or privileges that come with them, no matter how small the advantage may be. It should be noted that these advantages (aka 'white' privilege') [2] are provided by the wealthy to maintain false divisions amongst the masses and not based on any inherent superiority of the 'whites'. These advantages are given to create buffer classes to protect the truly wealthy from interactions with the majority who are disenfranchised. However, they know the history of how their ancestors 'discovered' a country that was already occupied and how those ancestors committed heinous acts against the indigenous people. They also recognize the history and abuses of slavery and their ancestors' use of free labor to accumulate wealth. The less wealthy 'whites' face the dilemma of attempting to realize and characterize a false concept created by the wealthy without the wealth to actualize the illusion. 'White' flight also stems from the understanding that those who classify themselves as 'white' have about how communities of 'non-white' peoples are treated different by the local government and authorities (i.e. redlining, racial profiling, environmental racism, etc.)
As for your examples, I agree some 'whites' have no guilt and do flee because of racist views. Yet, their acceptance of racism inherently implies they want to discriminate against and marginalize others based on the concept of race while endorsing and accepting any benefits that come with said discrimination. Unintentional racism stems from the same subliminal guilt mentioned in my topic sentence. This guilt often manifests itself in the form of psychological projection.
According to Wikipedia psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against unpleasant impulses by denying their existence in themselves, while attributing them to others. For example, a person who is rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude. Wikipedia lists practical examples of projection as blaming the victim, projection of marital guilt, bullying, projection of general guilt, projection of hope. It is the example of projection of general guilt, as well as white guilt, that 'white' flight is best described by. Projection of general guilt is defined as a projection of a severe conscience that is a form of defense, one which may be linked to the making of false accusations, personal or political. [4]
As for moving to the suburbs, white flight implies moving away from any other ethnic group not just to the suburbs. [6] It can also include education. As I cited in the comments section, I do not think it is a 'race' specific scenario limited to those deemed as 'black' and 'white'. Especially because race is a social concept that uses false labels to cause distraction. James Chen states in his article, 'The New Separate But Equal", "Rising test scores and higher academic standards in public schools are usually a cause for celebration among parents of school-age children. But in the liberal suburbs of the San Francisco Bay Area, this development is triggering panic among white parents who are increasingly choosing to send their children to private schools, or moving to more exclusive neighborhoods. Despite living in safe and desirable areas where diversity and tolerance are preached as gospel, white parents in the Bay Area are apparently avoiding many high-performing schools systems for the simple reason that they have too many Asians. The slow but steady disappearance of white students from suburban public schools is an obvious but rarely-discussed demographic trend that recalls the "white flight" from America"s largest cities decades earlier." This citation illustrates that those who classify themselves as 'white' do not desire for the playing field to be leveled or equal. They have come to expect a handicap. When the playing field is leveled they seem to run or create new barriers. [7]
Any economic opportunity given to a 'white' person based on race is inherently unjust. I am sure you will mention affirmative action in response, yet, this does not qualify as it was created by the government as a response to bias that was proven to exist in society. Affirmative action also protects other groups besides races (i.e. handicapped, gay/lesbian, etc.) Thus affirmative action may be used to aid so-called 'white' individuals.

To be clear, racist procedures can stem from the scenario of 'white' flight (i.e. predatory lending, overpricing of houses that were vacated, refusal to sell to potential buyers because of their race, or refusal of local government to equally support areas that 'whites' leave if they are left with only 'non-white' residents.) As cited realtors use blockbusting as a means of making large profits off of their understanding of the dependability of 'white' flight. [5]

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org... [1]
http://en.wikipedia.org... [2]
http://en.wikipedia.org... [3]
http://en.wikipedia.org... [4]
http://www.wisegeek.org... [5]
http://www.huffingtonpost.com... [6]
http://www.americanthinker.com... [7]
gomergcc

Con

My opponent as simplified the issue. The term “white flight” it is not correct. It not a white flight to the suburbs, it was everyone flight to the suburbs after WW2. They are using “white flight” and Suburban Sprawl interchangeably.

Urban sprawl or suburban sprawl describes the expansion of human populations away from central urban areas into previously remote and rural areas, often resulting in communities reliant upon heavy automobile usage

My opponent then blames 100% of it on racism. Ignoring the following factors:

  • Lack of Comprehensive Planning
  • Rapid Population Growth
  • Subsidized Infrastructure Improvements
  • Consumer Preferences
  • Lower land prices on the edges of the cities.
  • That new homes are build out edges of the city because there is open land there.

http://homeguides.sfgate.com...

My opponent also uses a flawed sources using information in a twisted way. For example the argument that there is a “white flight” out of San Francisco schools. This all boils down to just a few sentences from The American Thinker.

Many white parents say they're leaving because the schools are too academically driven and too narrowly invested in subjects such as math and science at the expense of liberal arts and extracurriculars like sports and other personal interests.
The two schools, put another way that parents rarely articulate so bluntly, are too Asian.

This throws out a valid reason for parents to move their kids to a new school because they value a rounded education and then adds in, “it must be because they are to Asian”. This from a source that calls the CIA Torture deprogramming, that our education system is a cause of mental health problems, and that magical sluts are out to destroy the Judeo-Christian moral code. They could not even be bothered to use proper spelling and grammar with this statement.

http://www.americanthinker.com... http://www.americanthinker.com... http://www.americanthinker.com...

The number one reason that people have moved to the suburbs is that is where new large scale housing developments are. That is the only place you can move to a street of brand new homes, all still under warranty.

After WW2 the economy was booming. People of all races saw economic advancements. Many people moved up on the economic latter. This drove people to move out farther out to newer homes. This happing at a time when most whites were already higher up on the economic latter. This makes it seem as if whites are running way from the minorities that now able to afford homes in their area. When if the whites had not moved up the economic latter to they would not be able to afford to move to new homes. While there was some racial problems to classify all whites as having a “subliminal guilt of non-melaninated peoples regarding the past and present systems of racial and economic bias and discrimination developed,propagated and maintained by the evaders and their ancestors,” ignores the economic factors and deliberate racism. If anything subliminal guilt would do exactly the opposite because otherwise it would just make you feel guiltier. This is like saying, “you feel subliminal guilt because you have it better than homeless people; so you steal from the homeless and not volunteer at a soup kitchen.”

http://www.utne.com...

An example of economic reasons for the move to the suburbs is Sun City, AZ. This was a suburb created by Dell Web for people over 55 built in 1960. It was, and still is, one of the biggest suburban developments by a single company. The amount in your bank account, and your age, has always mattered more that your skin color there. Well that and how much you like golf.

*Side Note*

Non-melanated people are called albinos. Clearly you mean whites. Just saying you can be non-melanated and be African American, or any other race.

Debate Round No. 2
mentalist

Pro

As my opponent has chosen to focus on white flight to the suburbs, I will first cite proof that the migration is not that 'simple'. In the article "White Flight Patterns Continue Within the Suburbs", Maayan Dembo notes, "According to a recent study, white flight proliferates even in the suburbs, as suburbs attract large numbers of middle-class minority residents and white residents flee so-called 'ethnoburbs'." He goes on to cite a study by Samuel Kye, a doctoral student in the Department of Sociology in Indiana University Bloomington's College of Arts and Sciences, who found, "the sheer force of immigration and suburbanization has resulted in the unmistakable rise of middle-class yet ethnic suburban communities. However, my research shows that despite their distinct middle-class character, ethnoburbs have lost a steady flow of white residents over the past 20 years...the once majority-white suburbs in Kye's study appeared especially sensitive to the growth and emergence of non-white populations. Levels of 'white flight' and segregation attributable to the presence of minority groups were distinctly higher in suburbs than in urban neighborhoods."[1]
The fact that these 'non-white' people who moved to the suburbs were of the same economic class clearly refutes my opponent's claim that 'white' flight is a phenomenon that is caused solely by economic factors. Also, as this article was published in 2014 and deals with current information rather than information from the 60's, it is a more accurate and relevant depiction of the 'white' flight migration.
Later in the article "The New Separate But Equal" the author demonstrates, "My survey of schools in the area revealed an interesting demographic trend: in a continuous arc of high"performing public school districts ringing San Francisco Bay, Asian student enrollments have climbed sharply over the past decade as white enrollments plummeted. These include middle"class neighborhoods in cities throughout the most liberal region in the United States. Suburban cities in the area with both rapidly"growing Asian student populations and steadily"diminishing numbers of white students include Alameda, Albany, Fremont (Kerry by 51%) Cupertino, San Jose (Kerry by 29%) and San Mateo (Kerry by 40%).

Among students, the view is that Asian"American parents are more academically demanding of their children, which has resulted in a greater overall competitiveness level in the public schools, particularly within these middle"class suburbs. In classrooms throughout the area, Asian"American school children dominate academically, and often take a disproportionate share of student awards and scholarships.

For white parents, the most often"cited reasons for leaving their local public school system are a lack of diversity, intense competition and the "singlemindedness" of Asian students. A common complaint is that Asian students are not as 'well"rounded' as others, an often"used reference to the perception that Asians partake less frequently in extracurricular activities. Many cite Asian students' low participation rates in varsity sports such as football and basketball, and in activities such as pep rallies, drama and cheerleading. These white parents insist that they are not biased against Asians, and blame the media for injecting a racial component into a non"racial issue.

Meanwhile, in nearby school systems such as Palo Alto, Los Altos and Piedmont, white parents have few complaints about the high test scores resulting from a rigorous curriculum and high academic standards. But unlike their counterparts in Alameda or Fremont, these school districts are overwhelmingly white, and homes in these neighborhoods are beyond the means of most middle"class families. Even with whites comprising over 70% of the student population, the schools' websites boast of having 'socially diverse' student bodies."[2]

The statements attributed to the parents - "For white parents, the most often"cited reasons for leaving their local public school system are a lack of diversity, intense competition and the "singlemindedness" of Asian students. A common complaint is that Asian students are not as 'well"rounded' as others, an often"used reference to the perception that Asians partake less frequently in extracurricular activities. Many cite Asian students' low participation rates in varsity sports such as football and basketball, and in activities such as pep rallies, drama and cheerleading. These white parents insist that they are not biased against Asians, and blame the media for injecting a racial component into a non"racial issue." - are common avoidance tactics and can be defined as avoidance coping. Wikipedia defines avoidance coping as a maladaptive coping mechanism characterized by the effort to avoid dealing with a stressor. Coping refers to behaviors that attempt to protect oneself from psychological damage. Variations of avoidance coping include modifying or eliminating the conditions that gave rise to the problem and changing the perception of an experience in a way that neutralizes the problem. [3]
As those middle to low income individuals who classify themselves as 'white' have to come to terms with the browning of the United States and the growing divide between rich and poor they will either continue to bounce around looking for homogenous oasis-es or get in where there fit in.
The homelessness analogy was poor, in my opinion, as there is no historical cause for guilt on the part of the observer.
Also, I quoted the article "The New Separate But Equal" by James Chen and am not supportive or aware of any other views the source may espouse.

*Side Note response*
As albinism etymologically stems from a word that means white (albus), I don't see any reason they can't be deemed as white by those who choose to define and label people by the color of their skin. They are 'white' after all.

Sources
http://www.planetizen.com... [1]
http://www.americanthinker.com... [2]
http://en.wikipedia.org... [3]
gomergcc

Con

The fact that these 'non-white' people who moved to the suburbs were of the same economic class clearly refutes my opponent's claim that 'white' flight is a phenomenon that is caused solely by economic factors. Also, as this article was published in 2014 and deals with current information rather than information from the 60's, it is a more accurate and relevant depiction of the 'white' flight migration.



First off I did not state only economic reasons I listed several reasons. The economic factors are simply the easiest for me to cite reputable sources for the information in a complex debate. The move back to the cities from the suburban dose have an economic cause a well. We are both in agreement that all races did migrate to the suburbs. For my example I will use Phoenix, AZ.



  • All races of at least middle class move to the suburban areas.

  • Phoenix downtown became very run down.

  • In March of 2005 construction of a light rail system was started right through the middle of the urban downtown area; this was finished in December of 2008.

  • During the construction luxury town homes and apartment building were built.

  • Also 4 and 5 star restaurants, high end stores, fancy movie theaters, and other business cratering to the upper middle class was built.

  • On Aug. 25, 2008 in almost the center of the urban area the ASU Walter Cronkite School of journalism opened.

  • Were once stood one the most gang infect apartments in the Phoenix metropolitan area there is now one of the most expensive places to live in Phoenix, The City Scape Plaza. They are hosting one of the largest holiday events in the Phoenix metropolitan area. For us in Phoenix an outdoor ice rink is a HUGE deal.

  • In 9 years the urban area of Phoenix as changed from an area that was so run down people did drugs on the street, to one of the wealthiest areas in the city.


http://cronkite.asu.edu...


http://www.cityscapephoenix.com...


http://www.valleymetro.org...



Was subliminal guilt the reason for the people moving to the urban area of Phoenix? No it was the economic opportunities that the light rail brought. Anyone that can afford to move from the suburbs to this luxury down town area is moving there. Many other cities did similar things to revitalize the urban areas starting in the 1990’s. This exactly when your source states that migration started back to the urban areas. Here is a small list of the cities that did this in the 1990’s I could find quickly, keep in mind I skipped over twice as many because they started in 2000 or 2001.


http://www.spur.org... (Washington DC)


http://www.metrojacksonville.com... (Oklahoma City)


http://www.forbes.com... (Cleveland)


http://www.forbes.com... (L.A.)


http://www.forbes.com... (Grand Rapids)


http://www.forbes.com... (Cincinnati)


http://www.forbes.com... (Louisville)


http://www.forbes.com... (Denver)



Is it a fully mixed diversity of people no unfortunately? While the have been many people that are minorities that have gained upper middle class income level there is still a gap. Things have changed a lot in one generation. Last time it started with 100% white migration first. Now it mixed and next time it happens when I am hitting retirement age it will be mixed even more. This is where racism plays in. You can’t fix generations of economic oppression overnight. This is just not the reason for the migration like you claim. It is the reason why minorities take longer to make the move, on average.



Meanwhile, in nearby school systems such as Palo Alto, Los Altos and Piedmont, white parents have few complaints about the high test scores resulting from a rigorous curriculum and high academic standards. But unlike their counterparts in Alameda or Fremont, these school districts are overwhelmingly white, and homes in these neighborhoods are beyond the means of most middle"class families. Even with whites comprising over 70% of the student population, the schools' websites boast of having 'socially diverse' student bodies.


The statements attributed to the parents - "For white parents, the most often"cited reasons for leaving their local public school system are a lack of diversity, intense competition and the "singlemindedness" of Asian students. A common complaint is that Asian students are not as 'well"rounded' as others, an often"used reference to the perception that Asians partake less frequently in extracurricular activities. Many cite Asian students' low participation rates in varsity sports such as football and basketball, and in activities such as pep rallies, drama and cheerleading.



I have successfully given a rebuttal to your source on this information. The American Thinker is not a reputable source. If you find a reputable source for this same information I will gladly give the information more consideration. As it stands right now this information might as well come from MAD magazine and I will treat it as such.



These white parents insist that they are not biased against Asians, and blame the media for injecting a racial component into a non"racial issue." - are common avoidance tactics and can be defined as avoidance coping. Wikipedia defines avoidance coping as a maladaptive coping mechanism characterized by the effort to avoid dealing with a stressor. Coping refers to behaviors that attempt to protect oneself from psychological damage. Variations of avoidance coping include modifying or eliminating the conditions that gave rise to the problem and changing the perception of an experience in a way that neutralizes the problem.


I remind my opponent that there argument was not that it was avoidance coping but subliminal guilt. There is no such thing as subliminal guilt as a medical term so I will have to rebuttal with guilt. Also what drives avoidance coping is not guilt but shame.


.


“What’s the difference between shame and guilt? Attempts to differentiate between shame and guilt fall into three categories: (a) a distinction based on types of eliciting events, (b) a distinction based on the public versus private nature of the transgression, and (c) a distinction based on the degree to which the person construes the emotion-eliciting event as a failure of self or behavior.”


Shame, guilt, embarrassment, and pride are members of a family of “self-conscious emotions” that are evoked by self-reflection and self-evaluation”


“As the self reflects upon the self, moral self-conscious emotions provide immediate punishment (or reinforcement) of behavior”


Guilt goes hand in hand with other-oriented empathy”


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...



Guilt comes from you knowing doing something against your moral self. You then become the judge and jury of your own self in your own head. Just like in a real court you will punish yourself more and more each time you commit the same self-crime. If you keep on doing this you will hit a point where internal punishment are not enough and will start self-harming in some fashion.


John Bradshaw healing the shame that binds you. (Book)



The homelessness analogy was poor, in my opinion, as there is no historical cause for guilt on the part of the observer.


My point was that no one punishes the observer over guilt. When you do lash out on the observer it is because your guilt has changed to shame.



*Side note: White when used as a race term is short hand for Caucasian, and not skin pigment color. As you can see from my picture my skin tone is white; however, I am not classified as white for my race. I am mixed since I am ½ Caucasian and ½ Arab. My facial hair is the only notice able part of my Arab descent. I am pushing 30 and still can’t grow a beard or mustache. 15 years from now I will be hairy like a monkey. Lol*

Debate Round No. 3
mentalist

Pro

As my second argument addressed the erroneous basis of the idea of 'white' flight being strictly an urban to suburban phenomena ("According to a recent study, white flight proliferates even in the suburbs, as suburbs attract large numbers of middle-class minority residents and white residents flee so-called 'ethnoburbs'." ), I will deal more specifically with the aspect of 'white' guilt. As I stated, the concept of race is arbitrary and fabricated. Yet, many are willing to cling to this false concept. Thus, 'white' flight stems from a feeling of superiority about a false identity. In a summary of the book The Invention of the White Race, Volume 1: Racial Oppression and Social Control by Theodore W. Allen, Lewis Bassett states, "When the first Africans arrived in Virginia in 1619, there were no "white" people there. Nor, according to colonial records, would there be for another sixty years. In this seminal two-volume work, The Invention of the White Race, Theodore W. Allen tells the story of how America"s ruling classes created the category of the "white race" as a means of social control. Since that early invention, white privileges have enforced the myth of racial superiority, and that fact has been central to maintaining ruling-class domination over ordinary working people of all colors throughout American history." [1]

However, as it is the subject of the debate, I will cite examples of 'white' guilt in the present day to authenticate its existence. In a blog entitled Old Single Mom the author J.A. states, "I have a raging case of white guilt.

I don"t know how NOT to feel bad about being a privileged white girl.

And by privileged, I don"t mean that my family comes from money. No ma"am, no sir. At best, I"m upper lower-middle class, and I have an Ugly Condo in a modest Chicago neighborhood to prove it.

When I say privileged, I simply mean I"ve always been given the benefit of the doubt. I"m saying that being a well-educated, green-eyed white girl is not the most punishing journey one can take in this country.

I have come to believe that, over time, racism in America has stolen, hidden, or burned up many of the "boots with straps" available to black people in this country, the same straps the mostly-white-male politicians encourage us to pull up before climbing our way to the American Dream. To me, that"s like stealing someone"s paddles, then mocking them when they lose the canoe race....I don"t know what to do with all the white guilt and shame I sometimes feel when I am around black people." [2] (notice guilt and shame)

In his article "Barack Obama Eased My White Guilt For White Flight" the author Marty Beckerman acknowledges:

Everyone is a little bit gay and more than a little bit racist. It doesn"t matter if you"re white, black, brown or tangerine; if you are a human being, you hold a few conscious or subconscious prejudices.

Sen. Barack Obama"s speech on racial tension seems to have rescued his campaign from the liability of his radical pastor; it has received widespread praise as the most forthright commentary on the subject in decades. And it came at an especially meaningful time for me. Over the past ten months I"ve lived in a mostly black neighborhood in Brooklyn . Although I lived in Washington, D.C. for six years, I spent most of the time in the "affluent" northwest quadrant. (Oh, there are so many fun words amongst real estate professionals that substitute for illegal words: "young professionals," "trendy," "middle-class," "lots of families," "safe.")

When I moved to New York, I only had two days to find an apartment. Rents in neighborhoods with numerous "young professionals" are considerably higher than in "up-and-coming" neighborhoods. The only appetizing-looking restaurant around is a McDonald"s, save for a Mexican eatery that gave me a gastrointestinal holocaust the other day. A few people have been murdered on the block, numerous delis have been robbed at gunpoint, drug dealers hang out at the self-service laundry, police sirens and car alarms blare throughout the night. Even the graffiti is graffitied.

So I am not renewing my lease. I will soon move to either a "nice" part of Brooklyn or "Manhattan below Harlem." Except here"s the thing: "nice" and "below Harlem" are fancy ways of saying "white," or at least "whiter." I don"t like to admit this (it makes me feel dirty, which is saying something), but you can only control your actions, not your thoughts. And I'm far from the only one in this city of liberals who has such thoughts. [3]

A blog entitled "Gentrification Is Not a Solution to White Flight" by Jasdye states, "First, white flight didn"t just happen to Chicago and second "white flight" is a problematic label that doesn"t in the least describe what was and is (still) happening. What happened to neighborhoods like Wicker Park, Ukranian Village, Lincoln Park, Humboldt Park, Logan Square, and South Loop is what happened to Detroit " white people decided their areas were too tainted, too impure, too scary. And rather than invest in them to make room for all, rather than welcoming, rather than giving back to the very people they"ve (we"ve) stolen wages, labor and wealth from, white people en masse thought it more convenient to relocate. More to the point, not only did white people relocate to the suburbs and enclaves, but they took the resources, the investments, the capital, the wealth that was made for them by the bodies, the work and the below poverty-level wages and existence that black (and other POC) made for them. When they found that Puerto Rican, Mexican, and Black youth were enacting on the very violence that had been exacted through economic, political and housing segregation, the White patriarchy decided it important to sever ties with the city and retreat to the suburbs. All the better if they could continue to draw resources out of the city and back into the cul de sacs, of course. [4]

I could go on citing sources, yet, as the factors that underlie 'white' flight are subliminal, they are rarely admitted to when raised openly and directly. At most they are understated or marginalized. A fact illustrated by my opponent who suggested there were only "some racial problems" during WW II (circa 1937-1945) when segregation and lynchings were rampant and basically legitimized by Jim Crow laws.

As my opponent requested a more reputable source detailing the 'white' flight out of schools where they were being 'outsmarted' by Asians, I will do so. It deals with the same story. It is written by Suein Hwang of the Wall Street Journal.
http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org...
Some excerpts from the article:

The white exodus clearly involves race-based presumptions, not all of which are positive. One example: Asian parents are too competitive. That sounds like racism to many of Cupertino's Asian residents, who resent the fact that their growing numbers and success are causing many white families to boycott the town altogether.

"It's a stereotype of Asian parents," says Pei-Pei Yow, a Hewlett-Packard Co. manager and Chinese-American community leader who sent two kids to Monta Vista. It's like other familiar biases, she says: "You can't say everybody from the South is a redneck."

While California has seen the most pronounced cases of suburban segregation, some of the developments in Cupertino are also starting to surface in other parts of the U.S. At Thomas S. Wootton High School in Rockville, Md., known flippantly to some locals as "Won Ton," roughly 35% of students are of Asian descent. People who don't know the school tend to make assumptions about its academics, says Principal Michael Doran. "Certain stereotypes come to mind -- 'those people are good at math,' " he says.
At Cupertino's top schools, administrators, parents and students say white students end up in the stereotyped role often applied to other minority groups: the underachievers. In one 9th-grade algebra class, Lynbrook's lowest-level math class, the students are an eclectic mix of whites, Asians and other racial and ethnic groups.

"Take a good look," whispered Steve Rowley, superintendent of the Fremont Union High School District, which covers the city of Cupertino as well as portions of other neighboring cities. "This doesn't look like the other classes we're going to."

On the second floor, in advanced-placement chemistry, only a couple of the 32 students are white and the rest are Asian. Some white parents, and even some students, say they suspect teachers don't take white kids as seriously as Asians. [5]

The reader should note that the article mentions 'suburban segregation'. It also describes how the 'white' "students end up in the stereotyped role often applied to other minority groups". However, as I asserted, they have come to expect a handicap. When the playing field is leveled they seem to run or create new barriers.

On the homelessness analogy, the so called 'whites' would not be observers they would be perpetrators.

*Side note response revisited: Wikipedia quotes Gregory Jay who states in his book Who invented White People, "Beginning in the 1500s, Europeans began to develop what became known as "scientific racism," the attempt to construct a biological rather than cultural definition of race ... Whiteness, then, emerged as what we now call a "pan-ethnic" category, as a way of merging a variety of European ethnic populations into a single "race" ..." [6]
NB: race is a contrivance
Interesting debate...

Sources:
http://www.versobooks.com... [1]
http://www.chicagonow.com... [2]
http://martybeckerman.com... [3]
http://leftcheek.wordpress.com... [4]
http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org... [5]
http://en.wikipedia.org... [6]
gomergcc

Con

In a summary of the book The Invention of the White Race, Volume 1: Racial Oppression and Social Control by Theodore W. Allen, Lewis Bassett states, "When the first Africans arrived in Virginia in 1619, there were no "white" people there. Nor, according to colonial records, would there be for another sixty years. In this seminal two-volume work, The Invention of the White Race, Theodore W. Allen tells the story of how America’s ruling classes created the category of the "white race" as a means of social control. Since that early invention, white privileges have enforced the myth of racial superiority, and that fact has been central to maintaining ruling-class domination over ordinary working people of all colors throughout American history."

The African slave trade started in the mid 1400’s before the discovery of the Americas. Up until the 1600’s they were called indentured servants. Many races were slaves across the world. When America was settled there not many indentured servants brought with them. The Dutch slave trade ships mostly picked up people from Africa. They quickly found there was a market in the Americas for indentured servants. Very quickly it was easy to tell who the indentured servant was since they were the only black people in America. The superiority did not originally start with it being a race based one. America was settled by Christian fundamentalist. The Puritans and Quaker had no problem trying to whip Jesus in a person. You let that go on for a 50 year and yes it will morph in to something else. When your whole life you have seen black people being sold like cattle, and beaten for the smallest infraction it will make you look down on them. Not like some was saying that not right at this time. Even to this day there are people that think black people are not capable of being a Christian and for this reason they should be slaves. Allen has taken one part of the cultural construction that lead to racism and forced on it being the only cause.

Old Single Mom the author J.A. also states at the end of her blog post you cite, “That's my piece, and that's my peace. Thank you for taking the time to read my silly words. It means the world. Carry on...” This source is satire, a joke, or sarcasm depending on how you want to label it.

Marty Beckerman about page states: “#1 Amazon.com bestselling humorist. MTV News editor. Contributor to the New York Times, Esquire, Wired, Playboy, Salon, Maxim, the Daily Beast and the Atlantic. USA Today calls his writing "laugh-out-loud." Hunter S. Thompson called him a "morbid little bastard." Again this was satire about comparing race equality to homosexual equality.

Leftcheek deuse your 4th source is not reliable. They are doing the same thing we are here but in blog format. They are not even journalists.

I could go on citing sources, yet, as the factors that underlie 'white' flight are subliminal, they are rarely admitted to when raised openly and directly. At most they are understated or marginalized. A fact illustrated by my opponent who suggested there were only "some racial problems" during WW II (circa 1937-1945) when segregation and lynchings were rampant and basically legitimized by Jim Crow laws.

I did not say that. There was no “white flight” then cities were segregated. The first African Americans to move into what were all white neighbor hoods were WW2 vets.

As my opponent requested a more reputable source detailing the 'white' flight out of schools where they were being 'outsmarted' by Asians, I will do so. It deals with the same story. It is written by Suein Hwang of the Wall Street Journal.
http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org......
Some excerpts from the article:

This is a forum post, this is even less reputable.

My opponent has still not show any argument for “white flight”, “subliminal guilt of non-melaninated peoples regarding the past and present systems of racial and economic bias and discrimination developed,propagated and maintained by the evaders and their ancestors.” My opponent is mostly just coping and pasting from sources that really are not that good. My opponent didn’t even read two of their sources thoroughly enough to notice they were jokes for my side of the argument.

Also my opponent has not given any rebuttal to my arguments that economics play at least some part to play in this.

Debate Round No. 4
mentalist

Pro

My opponent has not done a thorough enough job at detailing the true account of indentured servitude in the development of what would become the United States.

"Very quickly it was easy to tell who the indentured servant was since they were the only black people in America."

There were 'black' people in North America before the 1400's and 1600's
In his article "Before Columbus: How Africans Brought Civilization to America" Garikai Chengu states, "The strongest evidence of African presence in America before Columbus comes from the pen of Columbus himself. In 1920, a renowned American historian and linguist, Leo Weiner of Harvard University, in his book, Africa and the discovery of America, explained how Columbus noted in his journal that Native Americans had confirmed that "black skinned people had come from the south-east in boats, trading in gold-tipped spears." [1] According to the abstract of Columbus's log made by Bartolom" de las Casas, the purpose of Columbus"s third voyage was to test both the claims of King John II of Portugal that "canoes had been found which set out from the coast of Guinea [West Africa] and sailed to the west with merchandise" as well as the claims of the native inhabitants of the Caribbean island of Hispaniola that "from the south and the southeast had come black people whose spears were made of a metal called guan"n...from which it was found that of 32 parts: 18 were gold, 6 were silver, and 8 copper." [6] Also, archaeological evidence of what most would consider to be 'black' peoples can be found in the form of the Olmec heads.

African and Native American interaction began even before Europeans brought African slaves to the Americas. Free Africans reached the shores of the American continent as traders and settlers long before Europeans arrived. In 1975, 2 Negroid skeletons were found in the U.S. Virgin Islands. One wore a pre-Columbian Indian wrist band. They were found in layers dated to about A.D. 1250. In 1974, Polish craniologists revealed that no fewer than 13.5% of the skeletons from the pre-Columbian Olmec cemetery of Tlatilco were Negroid. [2]

The cover-up and blatant lying about melaninated contributions and cultures has been well documented. This cover-up (burning libraries, claiming Egyptians were 'white', saying melaninated people who would be considered 'black' by modern day racist standards didn't arrive in America until slavery, etc.) These tactics are used to propagate the myth that melaninated people, especially those now falsely categorized as 'black', contributed nothing to civilization. In fact terms such as black, indian, negroid,etc. were developed to keep people who have been displaced by processes such as colonialism from reclaiming their culture. These cover-ups are also used to authenticate the myth of 'white' superiority and validate or corroborate the whole racial delusion. The presence of 'Africoid' peoples in America before Columbus was also documented by Ivan Van Sertima in his book They came before Columbus. [5]

In the case of indentured servitude, there was no division based on color of skin until Bacon's rebellion. In this rebellion, Wikipedia states "Indentured servants both black and white joined the frontier rebellion. Seeing them united in a cause alarmed the ruling class. Historians believe the rebellion hastened the hardening of racial lines associated with slavery, as a way for planters and the colony to control some of the poor." [3] Indentured servitude was a labor system where by young people paid for their passage to the New World by working for an employer for a certain number of years. It was widely employed in the 18th century in the British colonies in North America and elsewhere. [4]

While I agree Christianity was used more as a political and economic tool rather than a spiritual practice, Christianity was used in unison with the wealthy class to give credence to slavery and other forms of subjugation. Indeed, Columbus' journeys and actions in the already occupied 'New World' were 'blessed' by the Pope. This merely illustrates and emphasizes the extent the many will go to substantiate a profitable lie. The Puritans and Quakers who allegedly came to America for religious freedom brutally imposed their religions on the indigenous people they encountered. The development of the racial divide just moved it from a false belief of religious superiority to a fabricated racial one.

As for the humorous nature of the citations I used, I think it was Shakespeare who stated, " In jest, there is truth". Mark Twain also quipped, "Humor is the good natured side of a truth."

To state that information is less credible if it is on a blog suggests the formal media does not have its deficiencies. Journalism, I suppose, in in the eye of the beholder. As most know, journalist and broadcasters have always served as means of spewing or excreting propaganda. It is up to those who digest the information to deem what is truth, lie or jest. As the subliminal origins of 'white' flight do not meet the mainstream media's 'platform', one will not see many stories dealing with the issue in the news. The Suein Hwang article was from the Wall Street Journal http://www.wsj.com...
I view personal accounts, in whatever format, to be more credible and probably more personal and genuine than news accounts given by programmers that probably have more of an ulterior motive when dealing with more controversial subjects.
In her article "White Flight & Structural Racism" Jessie Daniels states, "My personal narrative of my father"s decision to engage in white flight in the mid-1970s is part of the larger picture of "whitopias" that Benjamin refers to in his book. The kind of decision that my father made about relocating our family to an apartheid-like, privileged suburb of Houston is one that, some thirty years later, continues to play itself out across the U.S., in the north, east, south and west." [8]

"It"s realizing that as a white male in America, I have privilege. As a white male who happens to be an artist with a fan base, I have a platform to spread awareness about that privilege. However, songs about race and privilege are very difficult to A) write and B) dissect as a listener. They"re heavy. That line is acknowledging the guilt that I have for not bringing those issues to the surface, and the privilege that keeps me comfortable, whether I acknowledge it or not. This is a statement rapper Macklemore made about the following lyrics from the song A Wake:
"Fighting for a freedom that my people stole...Don't wanna make all my white fans uncomfortable
"But you don't even have a effin' song for radio...Why you out here talking race, trying to save the effin' globe?"
Don't get involved if the cause isn't mine...White privilege, white guilt, at the same damm time" [7]

In the book Flipping the Script: White Privilege and Community Building Maggie Potapchuk admits, "What gets in the way for whites to recognize this concept of white privilege is guilt and shame. On some basic level most whites understand and
acknowledge that people of color over the years have been treated unfairly. We have different explanations, based on our worldviews, life experiences, analyses of power, racism and oppression, knowledge of history, and, often, the amount of contact we have with people of color. But guilt and shame many times cloud the explanation because it is difficult to accept that one"s attitudes and behavior caused another person distress and disadvantage. It is even more shocking to
think how one"s government and community institutions have created and reinforced these oppressive policies and laws. Part of understanding white privilege is knowing how just having white skin has resulted in accumulating so
many advantages, and understanding how it affects what we own and the opportunities we have been given over the years. [9]
In the article "Racism is prevalent, persisting and perpetually growing, experts warn" written by Pam Douglas and Louie Rosella/D"Souza it is stated, "White flight" is just that, the experts say, describing it as the phenomenon of members of the once majority population uprooting and moving to towns and cities where they are once again in the majority. It is a racist reaction to "others taking over," because the context paints the "others" in a negative way.
"It"s people making personal choices where they want to live, versus wanting to move out of a community where they have spent generations because now the "others" are taking over. And the term is "the others are taking over,"" Naik says. "I cannot continue to raise my child there, I cannot send my child to the school because a large number are not even of my sub-group, and therefore I want to move. That is racism, and you can"t call it by any other name."

I am copying and pasting, at this point, to give personal accounts. As I am not 'white', I choose to let those who identify as such describe and define their 'white' guilt.

Sources:
http://www.globalresearch.ca... [1]
http://www.colorq.org... [2]
http://en.wikipedia.org... [3]
http://en.wikipedia.org... [4]
http://thehouseofsankofa.com... [5]
http://en.wikipedia.org... [6]
http://genius.com... [7]
http://www.racismreview.com... [8]
http://www.mpassociates.us... [9
gomergcc

Con


This debate really boils down to this:


Dose the statistical numbers of whites leaving areas of residence when minorities take up a large residence in that residential area steam from ONLY from a causal effect of subliminal guilt regarding the past and present systems of racism and discrimination, propagated and maintained by their to avoidance of the issue and their ancestors?


I have shown that the economic status of the people involved and of the economic development of the residential areas they are moving to also have causal effect on this issue. My opponent has not stated any rebuttal to this point.


Furthermore my opponent has used less than reputable sources, and taken sources out of the context they were written. My opponent as then just copy and pasted most of their argument rather than the normal process of making an argument of your own and quoting small sections in your debate.


To my opponent if you are white and moved, or moved your kids to another school, and that move just happens to have more white people that it is about racism. It cannot be you just liked that house, that a school was a better fit for your child, that it was closer to your work, or any number of other reasons you might have for making that move.


Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Dilara 2 years ago
Dilara
According to the fbi there are 700 anti white hate crimes a year. Were all ready experiencing racism.
Posted by Dilara 2 years ago
Dilara
My moms family is white and lived in nazi labor camps as slaves. On my dad's side my ancestors fought to end slavery in the civil war. Why should I feel bad for what my family fought against and suffered from?. Most white peoples ancestors didn't own slaves. We came to America from Europe to escape persecution and have a Better life. White immigrants worked as farmers and factory workers.
Posted by gomergcc 2 years ago
gomergcc
@Zarroette As I have all ready shown there is some other factors that throw stats off. As for racial tensions being over past wrong that is incorrect. I look as white as you can get, blond hair, blue eyes, and I swear I glow in the dark. I have a Jewish father, who I have never meet, and a Jewish last name. I have been beat up twice over being of Jewish decent and have lost friends over it. Due to my looks I hear people comments when it is all white company. It is by far not every one. Just enough people are stuck on race based views from 150 years ago to really make it an issue. In law enforcement and security it is really high. I was not the best person as a teen and young adult. My friends used to send our black friends in stores so security would follow them so we could steal. We made sure our black friends never carried the drugs we would share as a group. Cops all ways went after them first and it bought us time to ditch the drugs.

The issue of equal treatment is come more and more to a head because soon whites will be the minority in the USA
Posted by Zarroette 2 years ago
Zarroette
What a crock of sh*t. "White flight" is about racial tensions boiling over stupid non-white people blaming current whites for past wrongs. The racial majority will always have racial privilege, and non-whites are beginning to get it and abuse it.
Posted by mentalist 2 years ago
mentalist
I do not thin monolithic equates to leveled or equality.
Posted by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
How would the playing field not be leveled if they are all among their own kind. Wouldn't that be the most level playing field?
Posted by mentalist 2 years ago
mentalist
You assume more than what I suggest. I don't know how 'black' people feel about white flight. I am merely stating my hypothesis of its motivation or subliminal origin. I also do not think it is a 'race' specific scenario limited to thosed deemed as 'black' and 'white'. Especially because race is a social concept that uses false labels to cause distraction. James Chen states in his article, 'The New Separate But Equal", "Rising test scores and higher academic standards in public schools are usually a cause for celebration among parents of school-age children. But in the liberal suburbs of the San Francisco Bay Area, this development is triggering panic among white parents who are increasingly choosing to send their children to private schools, or moving to more exclusive neighborhoods. Despite living in safe and desirable areas where diversity and tolerance are preached as gospel, white parents in the Bay Area are apparently avoiding many high-performing schools systems for the simple reason that they have too many Asians. The slow but steady disappearance of white students from suburban public schools is an obvious but rarely-discussed demographic trend that recalls the "white flight" from America"s largest cities decades earlier." This citation illustrates that those who classify themselves as 'white' do not desire for the playing field to be leveled or equal. They have come to expect a handicap. When the playing field is leveled they seem to run or create new barriers.
Sources
http://www.americanthinker.com...
Posted by Wylted 2 years ago
Wylted
Sorry but unless black people are inferior to whites than white flight really shouldn't affect them. So what if whites do it for racist reasons.

Do you think whites get mad when black people move out of their neighborhood? Do you think that white people would allow there town to turn into the ghetto, just because less black people live there?
Posted by mentalist 2 years ago
mentalist
I agree there are those who exploit and manipulate the cultures of others by creating false labels and using propaganda, however, I think 'white' flight is a result of confused individuals who have accepted the false labels and accepted the propaganda - and then ran with it.
Posted by Mike_10-4 2 years ago
Mike_10-4
"White flight" is just cultural growing pains within the "Melting Pot" of a social experiment over the last 230 some plus years call the USA.

However, there are those who despise this "Melting Pot" paradigm and embrace multiculturalism.

https://www.youtube.com...
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