The Instigator
PeacefulChaos
Pro (for)
Winning
12 Points
The Contender
Romanii
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points

Whitebeard vs. Madara

Do you like this debate?NoYes+6
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
PeacefulChaos
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/23/2014 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 11,579 times Debate No: 55316
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (310)
Votes (5)

 

PeacefulChaos

Pro

Full Resolution –

Whitebeard (Edward Newgate) would probably beat Madara Uchiha in a fight.

As Pro, I affirm the resolution and will argue that it is more probable that Whitebeard would win in a fight against Madara Uchiha.


Rules:

1. Both characters will be at full health and will have no injuries at the start of the fight.

2. Madara will not be in edo-tensei and will be in his most recent form as of now, and Whitebeard will be as we saw him at Marineford (all in accordance with rule number one).

3. The setting will be a limitless plain with several lakes near the area of the fight.

4. Both characters will start off approximately 25 meters from each other.

5. No outside assistance is allowed. The exception to this rule is Madara's shadow clones, but when using the limbo jutsu, he is only allowed one clone at a time.

6. Whitebeard will receive his bisento, and Madara will receive a limited amount of kunai as well as his gunbai.

7. Both characters will have all their abilities intact (in accordince with rule number 5).



BOP –

The burden of proof shall be equally shared.

Structure –

The first round is for acceptance.

I wish the best of luck to my opponent.

Romanii

Con

I accept!
I look forward to a fun debate and wish my opponent good luck :D
Debate Round No. 1
PeacefulChaos

Pro

I appreciate Con’s acceptance of this debate. As a side note, I will be abbreviating Whitebeard as “WB” from now on.

Let us begin.

C1) Strength & Destructive Power

Although WB certainly has physical stats that far surpass anything Madara has shown, his strength will be his greatest asset; thus, I will go in-depth on this topic.

With just two simple movements of his fists, WB was able to casually create two tsunamis that dwarfed the island of Marineford at the beginning of the war [1]. Shortly afterward, Aokiji had frozen them in place, but WB was easily able to make them shatter to pieces [2]. It should be noted that Aokiji’s ice is far harder than steel, as even Zoro (who demonstrated his ability to cut steel back in Alabasta) was unable to cut his saber, which was made using several pieces of grass and some ice [3]. So for WB to be able to destroy what essentially were entire mountains of that same ice was an extremely impressive feat of strength, and is one that has not been matched by Madara. Using his abilities, WB could shatter Madara’s Susano’o in a similar way to how he shattered the mountains of ice.

In addition to creating and destroying tsunamis, Whitebeard can literally control the very fighting ground that he and Madara are fighting on. This was shown in his brief encounter with John Giant, where he tilted not only the entire island, but the very ocean itself by simply moving his hands through the air [4] [5]. While this certainly is a testament to WB’s strength, it should also be realized that WB can use this as a tactical maneuver to make Madara lose his balance or redirect incoming projectiles, as he did with John Giant. On the topic of giants, WB also easily demolished a giant of large proportions during the war at Marineford [6]. Although the fact that he was able to casually defeat a giant is impressive, the real significance of this event is the fact that the giant was a vice admiral of Navy HQ. Vice admirals are incredibly strong and could likely even trouble or significantly injure Madara himself in a fair fight.

Although a less impressive feat than the others, WB was also able to stop an entire ship moving at full speed with just one hand after having been heavily injured, and later on during the war, WB managed to make Marineford start crumbling without even touching the actual structure [7].

WB’s most impressive display of strength, however, occurs when he splits the entire island of Marineford in half after punching Akainu into the ground [8] [9]. Despite his rage behind the attack, WB was still holding back, as he did not wish to sink the entire island along with his crew, Ace, and Luffy.

The fact that he was holding back simply shows that WB was capable of far more than he has shown in the war, and this is even suggested by Sengoku himself, when he states that WB has the power to destroy the entire world [1]. Although this sounds absurd and it may not be entirely true, it should be taken into account that Sengoku is an incredibly intelligent tactician and general who would not make baseless claims that would otherwise demoralize his own soldiers. It wasn’t just Sengoku, however. In one scene before the war, a man was clearly concerned that the world would no longer be in existence after the war was over [10]. In another scene, WB’s tremors were shown to reach distant islands in other parts of the world [11]. Even Vice Admiral Tsuru suggests that WB’s attacks can cause mass destruction over the entire world by stating that no matter where she went in the world, she would not be safe [12].


Clearly, WB’s true strength far surpasses what he demonstrated at Marineford, and one of the primary reasons he did not reveal his true strength is due to the fact that his crewmates were on the same island as him, and he did not want to harm them. In his fight with Madara, however, he will have no such impeding factor.

In sum, Whitebeard’s strength far surpasses what Madara has shown us. If Madara gets hit by even one of WB’s attacks directly (or indirectly), he will likely either get knocked unconscious or die.

C2) Extreme Durability

Although WB’s feats of strength were all impressive, what is even more impressive is that he managed to sustain a myriad of wounds in battle … and still perform the said feats above.

Throughout the entirety of the war, WB suffered 267 sword wounds, 152 bullet wounds, and 46 cannon wounds [13]. Of the more notable injuries, he received one from Squardo, a New World captain who stabbed WB straight through his body. Later on, he was frozen by Aokiji, shot by Kizaru’s laser beams several times, and was punched by Akainu’s magma fist both in the chest and in the head, which effectively destroyed half his face, brain, and fried most of his internal organs.

Despite such injuries, he was able to continue fighting, and was even able to split the entire island of Marineford in half. It should be realized that WB will start off perfectly healthy in the beginning of the match and will not have these factors impeding him, allowing him to unleash his full damage on Madara’s body. It is unlikely Madara will be able to survive such attacks, and it is also unlikely Madara will be able to deal any attacks that will put WB down for good.

Lastly, WB had his sickness impeding him during the fight. We know he was sick because he was constantly attached to intravenous tubes, was surrounded by nurses, and was usually hooked up to some kind of oxygen tube when not in battle; however, in accordance with rule number 1, “both characters will be at full health and will have no injuries at the start of the fight.” Consequentially, he will be able to fight at full strength against Madara.

C3) Haki Utilization

In this situation, the most useful type of haki will be observation haki.

This form of haki allows the user to predict what their opponent will do next; however, this is fundamentally superior to Sharingan, because the user can actually see in the future what their opponent will do and the consequences of their actions. This was shown when Luffy fought against Mihawk in Marineford, or when Enel used observation haki to know exactly what moves Luffy was going to do next (e.g. throw a kick from the left). Sharingan, on the other hand, simply gives the user enhanced eyesight, allowing them to just predict what their opponents will do next based upon slight movements in the body. This will be invaluable in WB’s fight against Madara, as he will know exactly what Madara will do and when he will do it, allowing WB to react accordingly.

Armament haki will also be of aid in the fight, as it allows WB to further strengthen his attacks (even though they are already incredibly powerful) and even form an invisible armor around himself to reduce the effects of other’s attacks.

Conclusion

C1) WB’s strength is too much for Madara too handle, and will allow WB to break through his defenses.

C2) The feats of endurance and durability WB has displayed are far superior to what Madara has shown us.

C3) WB will be able to predict Madara’s moves and react accordingly, will be able to strengthen his own attacks, and will be able to form a defense to make Madara’s attacks less effective.


Sources -

[1] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[2] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[3] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[4] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[5] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[6]

[7] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[8] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[9] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[10] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[11] http://img.mangastream.to...

[12]http://static2.mangainn.com...

[13] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

Romanii

Con

Thanks to my opponent for his impressive argument!
I will be utilizing this round to mirror my opponent by highlighting Madara's strengths and showing how they could be used to help defeat Whitebeard.

C1) Chakra

Madara's chakra is incredibly strong, allowing him to use extremely powerful jutsus for extended periods of time without any physical tiring. This ensures that Madara's physical stamina is at least as much as that of Whitebeard's, especially given the fact that Whitebeard is getting old and has been displaying signs of aging [1].
Whitebeard would probably get tired during the battle before Madara would.

Additionally, Madara's high levels of chakra give him abilities that are much like haki.
Being a sensor type, he can detect a person's identity, abilities, and next move (by noticing changes in their chakra). This ability is much like Observation Haki and would effectively cancel out any advantage Whitebeard may have had in terms of reflexes.
Also, his chakra is so strong, that he can intimidate many reasonably strong opponents into fleeing simply by making eye contact with them [2]. This ability is similar to Conqueror's Haki, and, again, would cancel out any potential advantage Whitebeard may have had in that respect.
Thanks to Madara's chakra, Whitebeard's haki would pose a very minimal threat to Madara (see C3 for more).


C2) Martial Arts

Madara is very gifted in Taijutsu, being able to quickly and effectively defeat hundreds of relatively powerful enemies without displaying even the least bit of fatigue [3]. Madara's skill level in Taijutsu also displays his incredible speed an agility, which are two traits that Whitebeard has never displayed throughout any of his fights.
Madara could easily outpace and outmaneuver Whitebeard using this tremendous disparity in speed and agility.

Also, Madara is quite gifted in using his gunbai (mace + shield) and kunai (ninja stars), being able to inflict significant damage on demons as strong as the Ten-Tails with them [4]. His weapons could surely inflict a good amount of damage on Whitebeard as well.


C3) JUTSU

Madara has such a huge variety of jutsu, that it is literally impossible to name and describe each of them in the space provided here [1]. I will only be able to give a brief over view of the powers granted to him by each major type of jutsu he uses.

-- Elemental Jutsu: Madara is capable of doing powerful jutsu involving each of the five elements (water, fire, wind, lightning, earth), each of which Whitebeard would be susceptible to, especially water.

-- Casting Illusions (Genjutsu): Whitebeard does not have any powers suggesting that he would be immune to illusions; there is a very good chance that he can be tricked by them

-- Levitation: this would give Madara a degree of mobility that would be highly advantageous, especially against a large, not-too-fast opponent such as Whitebeard

-- Creating Barriers: could be used to slam into Whitebeard, issuing considerable damage.

-- Self-Cloning: Madara's wood clones each match his individual strength, and he can produce several of them at a time [5]; this would almost certainly be far too much for Whitebeard to handle, with all of them attacking from all directions and eventually overwhelming him.

Sharingan

The major powers of the normal Sharingan include being able to copy/predict an opponent's attacks as well as control/summon tailed beasts. The latter is against the rules of this debate, and as, such, should not be considered. However, the former could be seen as a counter to Whitebeard's Observation Haki. In combination with Madara's sensing abilities, he almost surely has a greater capacity to predict and avoid attacks than Whitebeard does.

However, Madara does not just have a normal Sharingan... he has a Mangekyou Sharingan, which gives him 3 additional powers:

--Susanoo: this is an insanely powerful armor (i.e. magical battle suit) that is capable of withstanding even some of the most powerful attacks known in the Naruto universe, such as the Bijuu Bomb [6]. It could possibly even withstand the effects of one of Whitebeard's earth quakes. Whitebear's Armament Haki pales in comparison to the Susanoo.

--Amaterasu: these severely damaging flames are not only inextinguishable, but they are also known to follow around the target based on the will of the user, thus being virtually unavoidable, as well.

--Tsukuyomi: Whitebeard does not have any way to avoid being affected by a genjutsu as powerful as the Tsukuyomi

Rennigan- a dojutsu which grants Madara some very powerful attacks including the ability to produce attractive and repulsive forces strong enough to destroy entire cities, absorbing chakra attacks, mind-reading, and summoning demons.

Needless to say, such a large variety of powerful Jutsus could be used one after the other in a strategic manner (see C6) to completely and utterly destroy Whitebeard, not even giving him a chance to fight back.


C5) Regeneration

This is an ability of Madara's that undoubtedly would give him a huge advantage, perhaps even being the primary reason that Whitebeard would lose a battle with Madara.
Due to the integration of the First Hokage's cells into Madara's body, Madara is able to use his amazing medical jutsu skills and regenerate from very damaging attacks within seconds [7].
This means that even if he were make a mistake and take a quake bubble to the face or something, he could regenerate and easily recover from such a blow, proceeding as if it had never happened.


C6) Intelligence

Madara its known to be extremely intelligent and very strategic, both long-term (as shown by his crafting of the whole Obition-Akatsuki-Infinite Tsuyukomi plan) and short-term (as shown by his clever battle field manipulation of Hashirama during their battle [8] ).
Of course, Whitebeard is no idiot, but he is not exactly known for having an exceptional level of intelligence, either, whereas Madara is; there is a good chance that Madara could create a plan or strategy of some sort to manipulate Whitebeard, perhaps taking advantage of the small lakes present on the battlefield somehow.


CONCLUSION

It has been proven that...

--Madara definitely has a higher level of intelligence, physical stamina, speed, agility, and reflexes than Whitebeard does

--Madara's chakra levels, regeneration, and dojutsu effectively counter Whitebeard's major advantages (i.e. haki, devil fruit, brute strength).

--Madara has an enormous variety of powerful jutsu that could be used in a strategic manner to bombard Whitebeard to death, even with his endurance for injuries.

Thus, we draw the logical conclusion that Madara would win in a battle against Whitebeard.


SOURCES

Much of my information came from Uchiha Madara's entry on Narutopedia (http://naruto.wikia.com...). This is a adequately reliable source, as nearly every single tidbit of information has an internal citation referencing a specific part of a manga chapter or anime episode, and is constantly being reviewed by Naruto fans, with misinformation promptly being deleted by more serious fans.

Aside from that, I did cite a couple of manga pages to back-up some of my more more specific claims:

[1] http://www.onepiecebay.net...
[2] http://narutobase.net...
[3] http://narutobase.net...
[4] http://narutobase.net...
[5] http://narutobase.net...
[6] http://narutobase.net...
[7] http://narutobase.net...
[8] http://narutobase.net...

I hand the debate back over to my opponent and eagerly await his next argument :D
Debate Round No. 2
PeacefulChaos

Pro

Since Con has skillfully implemented his rebuttals in his arguments, I will address his contentions to cover everything.


R1) Chakra


"Whitebeard would probably get tired during the battle before Madara would."


The only justification that my opponent provides for this statement is that "Whitebeard is getting old" and "Madara's chakra is incredibly strong"; however, all of the feats I have provided were when WB was old, and they surpass anything Madara has demonstrated. Unless my opponent can provide better feats of endurance and durability, this is simply a baseless claim.


He further sites a manga page where WB was stabbed by Squardo, yet Marco explicitly states that the reason WB was able to get hit by Squardo was because of his "worsening condition," yet rule 1 states that both characters will be at full health.


"Being a sensor type, he can detect a person's identity, abilities, and next move (by noticing changes in their chakra)."


Whitebeard possesses no chakra and only possesses haki; thus, Madara will not be able to gauge WB's abilities based off his chakra, as he has none. My opponent may argue that all living beings have chakra; however, such a "law" is only applicable to its own universe and is not applicable to a completely different universe such as One Piece.


Furthermore, no one had chakra until Hagoromo Otsutsuki was born. He was the first human to possess chakra, and he then spread it through the lands, allowing everyone to possess the power, but only did this in the Naruto universe [1].


R2) Martial Arts


"[Madara is] able to quickly and effectively defeat hundreds of relatively powerful enemies without displaying ... fatigue."


While impressive, this pales in comparison to the endurance feats that WB has shown. If my opponent is not satisfied, however, then I can easily provide other instances in which WB fights thousands of enemies of higher caliber, sending them all flying with simply strokes from his bisento [3].


Madara's skill level in Taijutsu also displays his incredible speed an agility, which are two traits that Whitebeard has never displayed throughout any of his fights.”

It is a common misconception that WB is slow simply because he is big, when in fact he has shown impressive feats of speed.

He was able to get behind Akainu without anyone in the war noticing, despite the fact that Marines were constantly surrounding him and following his movements due to his large size and power [4]. Taking into consideration that Akainu is an admiral level fighter with precognition, this is a very impressive feat.

WB was also able to intercept Kizaru as he was about to chase after Luffy [5]. It should be noted that Kizaru was able to previously turn into light faster than Luffy could react while he was in Gear Second, meaning WB’s movement and reaction speeds are faster than that of Luffy (which was already obvious). During Skypiea, Luffy was able to react to and kick lightning away without the aid of Gear Second [6]. Consequentially, WB can clearly move faster than the speed of lightning, which is far faster than anything Madara has demonstrated.


[Madara was] able to inflict significant damage on demons as strong as the Ten-Tails with them.”


The source Con provides does not prove this. It just shows the second Hokage cutting roots of a giant tree.


R3) Jutsu


-- Elemental Jutsu: Any such jutsu should be easily destroyed by WB’s quakes.


-- Genjutsu: This jutsu works by manipulating the flow of chakra in the victim’s brain, allowing the user to control their five senses; however, it has been proven that WB has no chakra to control. Genjutsu will not work.


-- Levitation: It has been proven that WB is capable of attacking projectiles in the air in round 2, where I gave a scan of WB destroying Aokiji’s ice projectiles.


-- Barriers: WB’s immeasurable strength can easily destroy any barriers Madara creates.


-- Clones: Madara can create clones, but it is false that each are as powerful as him, as he must distribute his chakra among them. The more chakra he distributes, the more powerful the clone.


WB can easily use his quakes to attack in all directions, and since clones typically have less durability than the original user, they will easily be destroyed by WB’s incredible strength.


-- Sharingan: Madara has lost Sharingan and only has Rinnegan, and considering the fact that Madara’s sensing abilities will not work, his powers pale in comparison to observation haki. I will still address Con’s arguments, however.


1. Susano’o: My opponent shows Madara blocking a biju bomb; however, he was not simply using his Susano’o, but also the power of the Kyuubi to block the bomb (shown on the next page of the source). This is not an accurate representation of the Susano’o’s true power. Furthermore, a biju bomb, which has been shown to destroy mountains, still does not compare to WB’s strength. After all, WB can destroy entire islands and likely continents, which dwarfs anything a biju bomb has shown.


2. Amaterasu: WB is rather fast and can dodge any attacks Madara has to throw at him. He also has pre-cognition, which will allow him to predict and react to Amaterasu.


Amaterasu takes a while to burn opponents and is not as hot as Akainu’s magma, which fried all of WB’s internal organs, yet did not put him down. Akainu was able to evaporate an iceberg about the same size as Marine HQ in less than a second [7]. Amaterasu, on the other hand, burns slowly, shown when Karin was on fire for quite a while, but sustained no significant damage. When Itachi released it on the forest during his fight with Sasuke, the trees did not burn down completely and were still there when Naruto had arrived [8] [9].


--Rinnegan: Summoning demons would be against rule 5. Madara has no chakra to absorb from WB, so this ability is also irrelevant.


I ask my opponent to provide evidence that Rinnegan gives people the ability to perform mind reading and use repulsive and attractive forces. Only Pain has shown the latter.


R5) Regeneration


The feat of regeneration Con provides is negligible, as Madara only recovered from a simple stab wound in the arm. This is not comparable, in any way, to WB’s strength.


It would be a no-limits fallacy to say that Madara can regenerate from anything. My opponent must provide a feat of regeneration that would allow Madara to recover from WB’s massive strength.


R6) Intelligence


I agree that Madara is smart enough to create elaborate plans, but the intelligence he has shown in battle is negligible. Con provides a source with Madara destroying the ground by firing biju bombs in Hashirama’s direction and calls it “clever battle field manipulation.” Repeatedly spamming the same attack is hardly a clever battle tactic.


WB, on the other hand, has demonstrated actual in-battle tactical knowledge and is on-par with Sengoku’s intelligence. He managed to get by the Marine’s defenses, appearing in a place no one expected and then using it to his advantage [10]. He was also able to predict and react accordingly to Sengoku’s battle plans, and was clever enough to hide a ship at the bottom of the ocean, and only reveal it when the time was right [11].


Conclusion:


- Sensory type abilities and genjutsus will not work on WB, as he does not have chakra, but haki will work

- WB is superior to Madara in every physical aspect (speed, strength, durability)

- WB has displayed intellectual prowess in battle superior to that of Madara

Good luck to Con.

Sources:


[1] http://naruto.wikia.com...

[2] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[3] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[4] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[5] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[6] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[7] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[8] http://narutobase.net...

[9] http://narutobase.net...

[10] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[11] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

Romanii

Con

Thanks to my opponent for another great argument!
I will not be addressing Pro's opening arguments, as I already have pretty much done so within my own opening arguments.
Thus, I will just be countering Pro's rebuttals, touching on his 3 contentions in doing so.


R1) Chakra

Unfortunately I will have to concede this point, as Pro has successfully utilized the incompatibilities of the OP/Naruto Universes to show the ineffectiveness of Madara's sensing abilities.
However, I will stand by my point that Madara can use extremely strong jutsu for extended periods of time, which is very helpful in his potential tactic of strategically bombarding Whitebeard with various jutsu one after the other.

And also, I must object to Pro's use of the debate's rules to unfairly strengthen his arguments. The first rule states that both characters are at full health, and the second rule states that Whitebeard will be as he was seen at Marineford; this would imply that Whitebeard's condition at the time of this battle is going to be the highest level of health that he had during the Marineford arc, which was right at the beginning. However, even then, he was still displaying signs of aging.

It is a FACT that Whitebeard has a very dulled sense of Observation Haki at the time of this battle. I have already cited an instance that proves so. Pro must provide evidence that Whitebeard IS capable of dodging attacks better than Madara is, or my point about Madara's superior reflexes still stands.



R2) Martial Arts

Skill

Pro claims that Madara taking down hundreds of shinobi without fatigue is nothing compared to Whitebeard taking out "thousands of enemies of higher caliber, sending them all flying with simply strokes from his bisento".
However, taking a look at the manga page cited by Pro, these supposed "enemies of high caliber" taken out by Whitebeard were MARINES. Marines are pretty much normal humans, just being slightly stronger and having more combat training than an ordinary one.
Shinobi, on the other hand, are skilled warriors, specially trained throughout their lives in martial arts as well as in ninjutsu and genjutsu, which are almost like Devil Fruit powers in the OP Universe. One shinobi could easily take out several marines before getting defeated.
It is clearly a greater show of martial arts skill to be able to take out hundreds of Shinobi than it is to be able to take out thousands of weakling marines.

Speed

Pro claims that Whitebeard actually HAS displayed speed and agility during battle, citing two examples of Whitebeard getting behind Akainu and Whitebeard intercepting Kizaru.
However, in both examples, there is information missing (e.g. Whitebeard's location before the instance being cited), the context of the situation is ignored (e.g. Akainu and the marines were pre-occupied with Luffy at the time), and faulty conclusions are made (e.g. Whitebeard being able to move is arm faster than lightning is different from being able to move his entire body over long distance at those speeds).

The reason that we must skeptical when examining the examples cited by Pro is because if Whitebeard was really capable of doing the things that Pro credits him for, we would see some clear instances of him taking advantage of such an ability DURING battle. But he does not. During battle he displays very minimal speed, lumbering slowly towards his opponent and being unable to dodge fatal blows [2].

As for the weapons thing, I apologize; I seem to have made in error in my sourcing. The point is that Madara has a powerful weapon and is adept in using it.



R3) Jutsu


Any points which I have been forced to drop (mostly due to the chakra-haki incompatibility) will not be mentioned.

-- Elemental Jutsu: Pro makes a baseless assertion, proclaiming that any and all jutsu would be destroyed by Whitebeard's earthquakes, but if this were true, Whitebeard would never ever take a hit from anyone! Yet Whitebeard does indeed take quite a few serious hits from a number of people including Squardo, Akainu, Blackbeard, and Kizaru, to name a few. Madara would definitely be able to cause substantial harm to Whitebeard using these elemental jutsu in a strategic manner.

-- Levitation: Pro claims that Whitebeard was able to destroy projectiles, thus rendering this ability useless. However, attacking a projectile is very different from attacking an actual person who is able to freely move around and change direction in the air. Pro has not contested my point that this ability gives Madara a great advantage over Whitebeard in terms of mobility.

-- Clones: Even if each clone is weaker than the original Madara, there is no evidence to suggest that Whitebeard would be able to destroy them all as easily as Pro claims. Again, I must point out that the only time Whitebeard has done something similar was in battling pathetic MARINES; even 1/100 of Madara is much more powerful than a marine! Madara's wood clones would still serve as a substantial advantage over Whitebeard.

Sharingan

Pro claims that Madara has switched to the Rinnegan and no longer has the Sharingan. However, this is blatantly false, as Madara can switch freely between the two [3].

Susanoo: it is true that the Susanoo can probably not withstand the full force of one of Whitebeard's earthquakesalone, but in combination with his healing abilities, it is definitely a possibility (see R5)

Amaterasu: it is true that Amaterasu takes a while to burn, but Whitebeard doesn't wear a shirt, so the fire would immediately start burning him, and it is also inextinguishable. As for Pro's comment that Whitebeard could dodge it, that ignores the fact that Amaterasu follows its target (also, see R1)

Rennigan

Pro claims that only Pain has been shown to be able to use extremely powerful attract/repulsive forces. However, Pain's Rinnegan were originally Madara's in the first place, and presently, Madara has both of them back. Thus, it is only logical to assume that Madara is capable of using such forces as well, possibly being able to utilize them to help neutralize the effects of Whitebeard's earthquakes.



R4) Regeneration

The reason that I couldn't find a better example of Madara's regeneration abilities is because Madara hasn't taken any significant hits yet XD
However, we can use logic to deduce the full extent of his self-healing capabilities. Madara has his abilities due to Hashirama's DNA/cells being infused into him; thus, his healing abilities are probably about as effective as Hashirama's. We see the full potential of Hashirama's healing abilities reflected in his granddaughter Tsunade, who demonstrates the ability to quickly regenerate after taking extremely powerful hits [4][5]. Therefore, Madara also probably has that ability.
In combination with the Susanoo and Rinnegan's forces, there is a strong chance that Madara could avoid the brunt of the damage from Whitebeard's earthquakes.



R5) Intelligence

My opponent calls the example of Madara's strategic combat I have provided negligible. Thus I have provided two more: one in which he demonstrates the ability to seek out and attack the most essential part of his enemy [6], and one in which he demonstrates the ability to come up with creative impromptu defenses against powerful attacks [7].
In response to Pro's supposed examples of Whitebeard's intelligence: we have no evidence that WB himself came up with those tactics, nor were they improvisional.


Unfortunately, I do not have enough room, so I will just extend my conclusions from last round (with the exceptions of "physical stamina" in the first one), since I believe I have successfully defended them.


SOURCES
[0] http://naruto.wikia.com...
[1] http://www.onepiecebay.net...
[2] http://www.onepiecebay.net...
[3] http://narutobase.net...
[4] http://narutobase.net...
[5] http://narutobase.net...
[6] http://narutobase.net... (entire chapter)
[7] http://narutobase.net...

Debate Round No. 3
PeacefulChaos

Pro

All points in the debate are now in Con's arguments. I will address his contentions to cover everything.


Rules:


Con claims that I unfairly utilize rules one and two. They are:

1. Both characters will be at full health and will have no injuries at the start of the fight.

2. Madara will not be in edo-tensei and will be in his most recent form as of now, and Whitebeard will be as we saw him at Marineford (all in accordance with rule number one).

Please note the bolded. I made it clear that WB would be as we saw him at Marineford, but only in accordinace with rule number one. That is to say, we will be disccussing a fully healthy but old WB.


By accepting the debate, Con accepted the fact that WB would be at full health. The only thing inhibiting WB is old age, which only prevents him from being as strong as his prime-self.



R1) Chakra


Con concedes that sensory abilities, genjutsu, and chakra absorption will be useless.


He fails to provide evidence that Madara has better stamina than WB, simply stating that he has large amounts of chakra; however, Madara will not be in edo-tensei state, so he will no longer have infinite chakra as before.


Furthermore, the feats of durability I have provided for WB were when he was old. So regardless of the rules, these feats still surpass what Madara has demonstrated, despite the fact that WB was old and sick.

Con also claims WB had dulled observation haki.


This was because:


1. WB was sick.


2. WB was not expecting the blow from Squardo, a fellow ally.


The first point is solved by the rules. The second is solved by the fact that WB will be expecting blows from Madara, who he will consider an enemy.


R2) Martial Arts


Skill


Con claims that Marines are normal humans, yet everyone at the war was at least a commissioned officer, the lowest of such ranks being an ensign [1]. An example would be Tashigi, and she is clearly not a normal human, being quite skilled with the sword. Also, there were higher ranking officers in the war (e.g. captain, rear admiral, vice admiral, etc.). Some ranks are capable of putting up a good fight with Madara himself and dealing significantly damaging attacks (such as vice-admiral Lonz, who WB defeated effortlessly).



It has thus been proven that WB was taking out a mix of thousands of highly skilled and some-what skilled soldiers in the war.


Speed


Con asks for context of the scene concerning Akainu. WB was not near Ace at the time, as if he was, he would have helped Ace. In fact, he was ordering everyone to run away as he stayed behind [2].


Even though Akainu was focused on Luffy, the Marines still had their eyes on WB. Everyone in the war paid attention when WB did something. Considering his large size, it's amazing that no one noticed him moving toward Akainu until it was too late. Let's not forget that, regardless of your concentration, observation haki let's you "observe" everything around you, and Akainu's inability to react to WB before it was too late demonstrates his speed.


If WB is able to move body parts faster than the speed of lightning, then it is clear that he also has reactions faster than lightning, and so he will be able to react to Madara easily.


Also, the very fact that he could keep up with admiral level fighters such as Aokiji, Kizaru, and Akainu is proof that WB is very fast, as all of them are faster than Luffy. Even Vice Admirals were faster and stronger than Luffy, yet WB had no problem keeping up with them. WB's speed showings are quite consistent.


"During battle he displays very minimal speed ... being unable to dodge fatal blows."


Con's statement is in direct contrast with WB's showings during the war and with the evidence provided above. The only proof he provides to back this statement up is WB getting hit by Akainu's magma fist, but Akainu is at similar levels of speed in comparison to WB, and WB was hit because he was sick and injured.



R3) Jutsu


-- Elemental Jutsu:
In the war, WB had to deal with thousands of bullets, canons, and enemies everywhere, but will only have to deal with one enemy here. Madara's elemental jutsus are not comparable to WB's strength, and he can blow them away.



It has already been explained how WB got hit by Squardo and Akainu. Blackbeard only hit WB because he was on the verge of death and his body wouldn't respond to him.


-- Levitation: WB's quakes extend in the air at fast speeds, shown when his quakes went across the entire island and destroyed the waves frozen by Aokiji in less than a second. Madara will be unable to avoid these, and he has not shown the ability to use Susano'o in the air, making him vulnerable.


-- Clones: I have given strength feats of WB destroying entire mountains of ice harder than steel (casually), and Con believes that wooden clones will survive his attacks, claiming there's no evidence to support my statements.


Madara has not been shown to spam clones, and if he does, it will quickly deplete chakra levels.


Sharingan


Con provides a source, showing that Madara can switch between the two eyes, yet this was when Madara was in edo-tensei and not when he came back to life. He has not shown this ability in the latter form.



Susano'o: Madara's healing abilities only apply to himself, not his Susano'o. If he wishes to repair his Susano'o, he'd have to use large amounts of chakra to do so.


Amaterasu: Considering that WB has armament's haki to protect himself, it won't start burning him right away. Even if it does, WB could probably endure it for several days, considering the durability feats I provided in round 2.


WB could dodge it, then attack Madara, thus making him lose control over it. Alternatively, he could tilt the ground as he did with John Giant, making Madara lose his focus.


Rinnegan:


The only reason Pain could use these techniques is because he used the Six Paths Technique, something Madara has not done. Madara would have to use the technique and make the Deva Path that allows the user to control attractive and repulsive forces [3]. This point is rendered moot.



R4) Regeneration


"[Madara's] healing abilities are probably about as effective as Hashirama's."


If that is so, then they probably run out after a certain amonut of time, shown in the same battle Con provided [4]. While the damage Madara put out on Tsunade was impressive, it's still no where near the damage that WB can dish out. If Madara gets hit by WB's quakes, it will cause so much damage that the regeneration will take too long, and he will be at WB's mercy.


Con agreed that Susano'o would probably break under WB's power, and I've shown how Rinnegan's forces do not apply to Madara. So if Madara was hit by WB's earthquakes, he would still likely die.


R5) Intelligence


Con says that the evidence I gave was not improvisational and that WB didn't make it.



In the source, WB received intentionally leaked information. This was so WB would order his men to rush the battlefield to stop the execution, allowing Pacifista to trap them. WB saw through this, telling his men to attack the battleships and not be trapped by Pacifista. This was improvisational and was an original idea.


I admit that Madara also has tactical knowledge from Con's source [6]. But his source [7] demonstrates a tactic that was already shown earlier, so it was not an impromptu tactic, as Madara has done this before back when he was alive [5].


It can be concluded that both have demonstrated equally impressive tactical knowledge in battle.


Conclusion:


- Regardless of the rules, WB has demonstrated feats of endurance above Madara

- Con concedes arguments concerning sensing abilities, genjutsu, and chakra absorption


- Con has dropped that WB is stronger and more durable than Madara

- Con's proposed Rinnegan abilities are not applicable to Madara

- Con admits that Susano'o would probably get destroyed by WB's quakes


Sources:


[1] http://onepiece.wikia.com...

[2] http://www.onepiecebay.net...

[3] http://naruto.wikia.com...

[4] http://narutobase.net...


[5] http://narutobase.net...



Romanii

Con

Since each contention/rebuttal seems to have been split up into more than one area of discussion, I will be organizing this round's argument as such.


R1) Whitebeard's Condition

Pro claims that rule 2's reference to rule 1 supports "a fully healthy but old WB". However, this results in an impossibility, as Whitebeard has never been fully healthy and old at the same time; we have no way of knowing what the extent of his power would be in such a condition. In order to resolve this potential impossibility, we should take the more clear of the two rules (that Whitebeard will appear as he did in Marineford), and then apply the full health rule, which results in the conclusion that at the time of this battle, Whitebeard would appear as he did right at the beginning of the Paramount War (i.e. the point at which Whitebeard had the fullest health throughout the course of the Marineford Arc)
Thus, any attempts by Pro to use Whitebeard's sickness as a counter cannot be counted as valid.



R2) Observation Haki

With that out of the way, I can continue to use the example I cited in round 2 to show that Whitebeard would have very minimal observation haki at the time of battle. Pro attempts to rebut this by saying that Whitebeard was not expecting to be hit by an ally, but we can infer from Marco's comments afterwards that if Whitebeard had fully functioning Observation Haki, he still should have been able to dodge the strike.
In addition, Pro has only addressed my examples showing that Whtiebeard DOESN'T have Observation Haki; he has yet to show one instance in which Whitebeard DOES display any sign of having such an ability.



R3) Martial Arts Skill

Pro claims that all the marines blown away by Whitebeard were commissioned officers, but that is simply false. The vast majority of the troops at Marineford were just normal marine recruits. Also, Pro makes a baseless assertion that many Vice Admirals can put up a good fight against Madara, when all it would really take is a strike from Susanoo to kill one.
At no point does Whitebeard display substantial skill in martial arts, mainly just swinging around his bisento and blowing away thousands of weaklings at a time, while Madara is able to skillfully use taijutsu to beat hundreds of much stronger warriors.



R4) Speed


Here, Pro is using gaps in information to make false conclusions, guessing that Whitebeard has superhuman speed based on nothing more than the fact that we cannot see how Whitebeard got from one place to another. It is much more likely that there is an explanation that is more consistent with how fast Whitebeard moves otherwise (i.e. rather slowly).

Regarding the Akainu situation, Pro cites a scan showing Whitebeard to be somewhat far away from Ace, but that was more than 2 chapters before the instance in question! There was plenty of time for him to have moved...
Pro pretty much drops his example concerning Kizaru, simply stating that because Whitebeard can move his body parts at the speed of lightning, his reflexes are also faster than lightning. This is a non-sequitur...

As for Pro's other contention, Whitebeard being able to fight the Admirals does not automatically mean he is as fast with them... it means he has other means of compensating for their speed (i.e. earthquakes, the long reach of his bisento, etc.).

In response to my point that Whitebeard has never shown his supposed superhuman speed in battle, Pro basically just says "WB was sick", which I have already shown to be an invalid response.

Madara is much faster than Whitebeard. There is no question about it.



R5) Jutsu

Elemental Jutsu: Pro basically just repeats himself, here, proclaiming that Whitebeard can blow away all of Madara's jutsu with his earthquakes. I do not doubt that Whitebeard would be able to avoid quite a few jutsu that way, but Madara's tact and mobility would allow for the majority of them to hit. And again, sickness is not a valid counter, so my objection that Whitebeard has been hit quite easily before does prove my point, here.

Levitation: Pro claims that the shocks from Whitebeard's quakes move very fast in all directions. This is true. However, Whitebeard has a very characteristic pose that he uses in preparing to use this technique, and thus, Madara would be able to see it coming and get out of the way [1].

Clones: Pro strawmans me by saying that I have claimed that wood clones can withstand Whitebeard's quakes. This is false. Rather, I have merely noted that these clones are just as mobile as the original Madara and can still use jutsu as powerful as Susanoo [2]. The point is that the clones won't be as easy to destroy as Pro makes it out to be.

Sharingan

Pro claims that after his escape from Edo Tensei, Madara is rendered incapable of using Sharingan abilities. He bases this conclusion solely off the fact that Madara hasn't yet used it since his escape. This is not a valid reason to assume that Madara no longer has that ability. Madara is still fully capable of switching between the two dojutsu.

Amaterasu: Pro rebuts this by saying that Whitebeard's endurance would allow him to bear the Amaterasu for a long period of time; while this may be true, he would be taking heavy damage from the fire, which is the main purpose of using it in the first place. As for Pro's proposed method for evading Amaterasu, there is a good chance that Madara would learn to anticipate this method after Whitebeard has used it once and would come up with a counter-tactic (e.g. levitating immediately after releasing Amaterasu without losing concentration).

Susanoo: Pro seems to think that my partial concession equates to a full concession. I simply said that the Susanoo alone would probably break from a quake, but I went on to say that in conjunction with the Deva Path and his regenerative abilities, Madara could probably avoid getting injured by one.

Rinnegan

Judging from his rebuttal, Pro seems to have a misconception of the Rinnegan's powers... the Six Paths technique is a trademark of the Rinnegan; a power automatically granted to any user of the Rinnegan [3]. Madara is definitely capable of using it. The reason that he hasn't yet is because he hasn't been in an all-out battle yet, holding back even against the Kages.
Madara can definitely use the Deva Path (extremely strong attractive/repulsive forces), which could be utilized to help neutralize the effects of Whitebeard's quakes.



R6) Regeneration

Pro states that regeneration alone would not allow Madara to take an earthquake. However, I never claimed that it would; rather, I said that in conjunction with Susanoo and Deva Path, he could probably manage it.



R7) Intelligence


Pro gives an additional example of Whitebeard's supposed intelligence. However, detecting and avoiding a trap is not the same thing as being able to come up with innovative offensive strategies on the spot, like Madara has been shown to be capable of.
Madara is probably smarter than Whitebeard in terms of tactical combat ability.



CONCLUSIONS

Pro's argument was basically that Whitebeard's brute physical strength, endurance for injuries, Devil Fruit, and 3 forms of Haki would be enough to beat Madara.

I have shown that...

-- Madara's incredible variety of powerful jutsu*, combined with his superior speed/agility, could be used in conjunction with his vast intelligence to totally destroy Whitebeard

* i.e. taijutsu, ninjutsu, weaponry, sharingan, rinnegan

-- Madara could potentially use his Susanoo, Deva Path, and his Regeneration abilities together to neutralize the effects of Whitebeard's earthquakes

-- Whitebeard gets no advantage from his observation haki (because he barely has any), armament haki (because of Madara's ability to dodge and Susanoo), or conqueror's haki (because it only works on weak-willed enemies).

There is a high likelihood that Madara would win in a battle against Whitebeard.
Back to Pro!


SOURCES
[1] http://www.onepiecebay.net...
[2] http://narutobase.net...
[3] http://naruto.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 4
PeacefulChaos

Pro

It's been a fun debate, and I think Romanii for fully participating in it.


R1) Rules


Con claims that the rules result in an impossibility, since WB has never been fully healthy and old simultaneously; however, this doesn't make it impossible. It simply means we don't know what WB would be fully capable of. Con may object to this, saying it is unfair, yet we don't even know what sick WB was fully capable of, as he was holding back for the sake of his crew mates (as proven in round 2).


Furthermore, to be "in accordance" is to be in a manner conforming with something; thus, rule 2 must conform with rule 1.


R2) Haki & Chakra


Since round 3, I've asked Con to back up his statements that Madara has better stamina than WB. Last round, he provided no evidence and completely dropped the matter. I am the only one to provide feats of endurance for WB, and it is clear that he is superior in this matter.


"... but we can infer from Marco's comments afterwards that if Whitebeard had fully functioning Observation Haki, he still should have been able to dodge the strike."


Con is correct, but I stated that Squardo being an ally was a factor explaining why WB was able to get hit, which is true.


Marco's statements also confirm that, if WB was fully healthy (as he should be, in accordance with the rules), his haki would be fully functional and he would be able to dodge such an attack.


R3) Martial Arts


Con completely disregards my evidence, claiming that most troops at Marineford were just recruits.


Only commisioned officers are allowed to wear a coat with "Justice" on the back (from the source I provided in the last round). Every Marine at the war was wearing such a coat; thus, they were all commissioned officers.


Con claims that it is baseless to say that Vice Admirals would put up a good fight against Madara, despite the fact that they are above pre-timeskip Luffy. It has been uncontested that Luffy can react to lightning and move at that speed. His strength is also enormous, yet Vice Admirals are superior to Luffy in nearly every physical aspect, and they would thus give Madara trouble.


R4) Speed


I gave a scan where WB was ordering his men to run away while he stayed behind. In other words, he wouldn't have moved toward them until Ace got killed; however, even if he was right behind Akainu the entire time, the fact that he was able to move his fists faster than Akainu can react is still a testament to his speed.


Con claims I made a non-sequitur by stating that WB has faster than lightning reactions, but this is actually something we saw in the manga. I will repeat myself again. Kizaru was able to turn into light faster than Luffy could react, yet WB was able to react and move fast enough to stop Kizaru turning into light.


WB wasn't just able to fight against the admirals and vice admirals, but he was able to keep up with them. Ignoring the speed feats, Con offers an alterantive with little to no evidence that WB has "other means of compensating for their speed."


Even if what Con claims is true, then he can use those same methods to keep up with Madara, who is not as fast as the admirals or vice admirals.


It should be noted that, unlike myself, Con has never given any evidence for how fast Madara is. He has just stated that Madara is faster than WB.


R5) Jutsu


Elemental Jutsu:
Con ignores my refutation. I stated that WB had to deal with thousands of bullets, canons, and enemies everywhere, which is why he got hit. Here, he will only have to deal with one enemy and far less projectiles, so he will not get hit. After all, WB has shown impressive reaction and speed feats.


Levitation: How would Madara be able to get out of the way? He would have nowhere to fly, as the quakes can travel in multiple directions, and they are too fast for him to fly away from. In fact, this problem applies to Madara while he is on the ground, too.


Con drops the fact that Madara would be more vulnerable in the air.


Clones: If he uses multiple clones and then makes them use Susano'o, he will quickly deplete his chakra levels. He did not have to worry about this in the source Con sited, since he was in edo-tensei and he had infinite chakra. Now, however, he has a limited amount of chakra.


It has already been proven that WB's quakes can travel too fast for Madara in all directions, and since clones are weaker than Madara himself, they will be destroyed by the quakes.


Sharingan & Rinnegan


Susano'o, Regeneration, & Deva Path: Con claims that alone, none of these can stop WB's quakes, but together, Madara can survive; however, Madara barely uses the Deva Path to begin with. There's nothing to suggest that he'd do so in this fight, unless he was significantly damaged and realized that WB was a very powerful opponent. At that point, of course, it'd be too late.


It's even more questionable if Madara will use all 3 powers in conjuction with one another, as he has never shown anything of this sort. If he did, however, it'd probably quickly deplete his chakra supplies, meaning he'd lose the battle.


Even if they were used all together, it's questionable if it'd be enough to stop WB's quakes. Only Susano'o and the Deva Path would actually work together to stop the quakes, but it's clear that WB's power far surpasses anything either of them has shown (as he was able to split an entire island), even combined together. The regeneration would heal Madara from WB's attacks, but if the quakes actually hit Madara, they will do so much damage that regeneration will take too long for Madara to recover, allowing WB to finish him off.


Of course, WB could simply spam his quakes on Madara, quickly breaking anything he has. Con may claim that WB has not been shown to do this very much, but then again, Madara hasn't been shown at all to use all 3 powers in conjuction with one another, let alone the Deva Path by itself. I'm simply responding to an unlikely tactic with one that is more likely to happen.


Amaterasu: I have already explained that, in comparison to the damage WB has gained throughout the war, Amaterasu is not as damaging (e.g. Akainu's magma is far hotter than Amaterasu). Con mostly agrees with this, only saying that it will eventually wear WB down, but this is under the assumption that:


1. WB will get hit (he is too fast).


2. WB will not use armaments haki as a shield.


It will be too difficult for Madara to dodge WB's extremely fast quakes and maintain control over Amaterasu. Trying to levitate at the same time would be even more difficult.


R7) Intelligence


Con states that detecting and avoiding a trap isn't the same as being able to come up with a battle strategy.


They are not the same, but both demonstrate equal tactical intelligence. In fact, one could argue that detecting and making a plan to avoid a trap is a superior form of intelligence, as it requires two parts.


Conclusion:


It has been uncontested or conceded that:


- WB is far stronger than Madara

- WB has displayed superior feats of durability and stamina

- Sensory abilities, genjutsu, and chakra absorption are useless


I've proved that, even when WB is sick:


- WB is superior in all major physical aspects (strength, speed, durability, and stamina) and his strength is above even the feats he's shown, as he was holding back so he wouldn't hurt his crewmates (proven in round 2)

- Madara's defenses and speed are inadaquate block or avoid WB's attacks

- WB's armaments haki can be used to defend against Madara's techniques or strengthen his own attacks

- WB's intelligence is at least the level of Madara, if not more

- Madara will probably run out of chakra using the tactics Con provides


And considering the rules of the debate:


- WB has observation haki, allowing him to know Madara's moves

- WB's physical stats will further be amplified, as he will not be hindered by sickness


Consequentially, there is a very high probability that WB will win in a fight against Madara.


Once again, I thank Romanii for accepting this debate and making it fun and challenging :). I wish the best of luck to him in his last round.
Romanii

Con

Thanks to my opponent for his excellent final round argument!
Let's jump straight into it...


R1) Whitebeard's Condition

Pro denies that the rules create an impossibility, saying that "It simply means we don't know what WB would be fully capable of... Con may object to this, saying it is unfair, yet we don't even know what sick WB was fully capable of, as he was holding back for the sake of his crew mates"

But we can still infer what WB's full power (while sick) is like from the instances in which he does come close to going all out (i.e. his battle with Akainu after Ace died). However, we have NEVER seen WB fight when he wasn't sick, so speculating on what he could do in his prime enables Pro to evade practically ALL my points about WB's weaknesses simply by saying "he was sick".

It is clear that my interpretation of the rules is more logical: at the time of this battle, WB would appear just as he did right at the beginning of the Marineford Arc, health problems and all.

None of Pro's rebuttals that involve WB's sickness can be considered valid.



R2) Chakra

"Since round 3, I've asked Con to back up his statements that Madara has better stamina than WB... I am the only one to provide feats of endurance for WB, and it is clear that he is superior in this matter."

Yes, I did drop those contentions, but that does not necessarily mean I conceded that those superiorities give WB a significant advantage over Madara...Madara's huge chakra and Susanoo can still serve as compensations for his disadvantages in terms of physical stamina and endurance, respectivvely.

Pro's main rebuttal to my point about WB's lack of Observation Haki was "sickness", and will be appropriately ignored.

WB's observation haki has degenerated to the point that it would NOT pose a significant advantage over Madara.



R3) Martial Arts Skill

Unfortunately, I have made a mistake concerning the rank of the marines blown away by WB. But even so, this example does not even support WB having any sort of martial arts "skill"; it only supports the superiority of his brute physical strength, which I have not even attempted to contest.
Pro has not actually provided proof that WB has more martial arts skill than Madara.

Madara clearly is a more agile and skillful master of the martial arts (taijutsu) than WB.



R4) Speed

"...he wouldn't have moved toward them until Ace got killed"

Substantial time passed between the moment of Ace's death and WB's apprehending of Akainu.

"...the fact that he was able to move his fists faster than Akainu can react is still a testament to his speed."

Being able to throw a fast punch is very different from being able to move your body over long distances at superhuman speeds.

"Kizaru was able to turn into light faster than Luffy could react, yet WB was able to react and move fast enough to stop Kizaru turning into light."

Again, Pro is making the conclusion that WB has superhuman speed and reflexes based on nothing more than a lack of information. WB could have already been fighting Kizaru. WB could have already been keeping an eye on Kizaru. There are so many explanations more likely than WB suddenly gaining super-speed and super-reflexes despite never having shown that ability before.

"WB wasn't just able to fight against the admirals and vice admirals, but he was able to keep up with them"

I'm failing to see how the two are different... unless the Admirals were trying to run away or something, which they weren't.

"Even if what Con claims is true, then he can use those same methods to keep up with Madara, who is not as fast as the admirals or vice admirals."

Pro is committing the fallacy of assuming his own conclusion to make a point. He is already assuming that Madara is weaker than the Admirals while WB is stronger than them and then building his argument off that assumption.

"It should be noted that, unlike myself, Con has never given any evidence for how fast Madara is."

I did, actually. It is evident in many of the manga page scans I provided, most notably the ones from his battle with Hashirama. Madara consistently displays speed throughout all his battles, whereas WB does NOT.

On that note, it should ALSO be noted that Pro has not shown even ONE instance of WB actually taking advantage of his supposed super human speed in battle, instead citing random instances in which WB was able to throw a quick punch.

There is virtually NO doubt that Madara is much faster than WB.



R5) Jutsu


Elemental Jutsu:


"Here, [WB] will only have to deal with one enemy and far less projectiles, so he will not get hit"

1. Many of Madara's jutsu are not projectiles

2. WB has gotten hit even when he was only dealing with a single enemy at a time (e.g. Akainu)


Levitation:

"How would Madara be able to get out of the way? He would have nowhere to fly, as the quakes can travel in multiple directions, and they are too fast for him to fly away from."

WB's earthquakes don't go in ALL directions... they can go in more than one direction, but not ALL directions at once. Madara can use his intelligence to locate a safe zone and go there while WB is getting into his trademark pose.


Clones:

"If he uses multiple clones and then makes them use Susano'o, he will quickly deplete his chakra levels."

...I only mentioned Susanoo as an example to prove that Madara's clones are CAPABLE of using strong jutsu. Madara can make the judgement call based on how much chakra he has to decide which jutsu his clones should use how and when.


Amaterasu:

Pro's points concerning WB's ability to dodge and the difficulty of avoiding WB's quakes have already been debunked. And WB's armament haki will only delay the burning. Amaterasu would certainly eventually cause substantial harm to WB.


Susanoo / Regeneration / Deva Path :

"Madara barely uses the Deva Path to begin with. There's nothing to suggest that he'd do so in this fight, unless he was significantly damaged and realized that WB was a very powerful opponent. At that point, of course, it'd be too late."

Baseless assertion. It really doesn't take all that long for someone to recognize WB as a powerful opponent. Just his appearance would put anyone on guard!

"It's even more questionable if Madara will use all 3 powers in conjuction with one another, as he has never shown anything of this sort."

Madara is a brilliant tactician. Why wouldn't he be able to devise such a move? Especially since it seems to be one of the only ways of avoiding harm from WB's quakes...

"If he did, however, it'd probably quickly deplete his chakra supplies."

And that is where Madara's enormous chakra comes into play :)

"Even if they were used all together, it's questionable if it'd be enough to stop WB's quakes... it's clear that WB's power far surpasses anything either of them has shown."

Susanoo is known to make the user nearly invincible in the Naruto Universe; it alone could absorb a good amount of the shock from WB's earthquakes. Deva Path can be used to completely destroy a city. Regeneration can completely heal a person after taking a direct hit from a very powerful jutsu. To suggest that not even a combination of the three would be capable of neutralizing the effects of one of WB's earthquakes is just wishful thinking on Pro's part.

"Of course, WB could simply spam his quakes on Madara, quickly breaking anything he has."

WB takes a while to create each earthquake, even when he's in a rage (see Akainu battle); it is very unlikely that he even has the ABILITY to "spam his quakes".

Madara's huge variety of powerful jutsu give him a huge offensive advantage, as well as a potential defense against WB's earthquakes.



R6) Intelligence

Pro's response here is very blatantly inadequate. He just makes a weak attempt at making his example of WB's tact seem more impressive.
Madara's displays of impromptu battlefield tact are much more frequent and innovative than those of WB.

Madara is almost certainly significantly more intelligent than WB.

.

Extend last round's conclusions. (Because 20 characters left)

Thanks for a very fun debate, PeacefulChaos!
Debate Round No. 5
310 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by PeacefulChaos 1 year ago
PeacefulChaos
Nah this Devil Fruit state that he's achieved might let him hold on for a few microseconds before getting one shot.
Posted by Romanii 1 year ago
Romanii
ohmygawd Oda has been stretching out that 10 minute recovery time for like 4 chapters straight -_-

doffy better actually get rekt next chapter.
Posted by PeacefulChaos 1 year ago
PeacefulChaos
Except now Doffy is getting rekt
Posted by Romanii 1 year ago
Romanii
Good times...
Posted by TheLastMan 2 years ago
TheLastMan
An excellent debate.
Posted by Romanii 2 years ago
Romanii
I agree with Defro. This debate definitely did change my perspective on Whitebeard, especially concerning speed and strength.
Posted by PeacefulChaos 2 years ago
PeacefulChaos
Yeah, Romanii and I were not aware of his abilities, and only "discovered" them near the last few rounds.
Posted by Mikal 2 years ago
Mikal
Was more shocked the sage of six paths was not brought up
Posted by Romanii 2 years ago
Romanii
Nooooooo!!!
Fanath, I challenge you to a GOD-BATTLE!!!
Posted by Fanath 2 years ago
Fanath
Now I'm God.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by Defro 2 years ago
Defro
PeacefulChaosRomaniiTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Phew...this was a long read. Before reading this, I thought Madara was more powerful, but this completely changed how I viewed Whitebeard! I feel like Pro has successfully met his BoP given the conditions that Whitebeard was healthy. When it came to strength, Pro has proved that Whitebeard is stronger and that his quakes can render some of Madara's jutsu's useless.
Vote Placed by Mikal 2 years ago
Mikal
PeacefulChaosRomaniiTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: I was actually shocked when I read over this. Naturally assuming madara would be stronger, pro laid out a solid case for whitebeards strength. I feel like this could have been closer but with the contentions con presented, pro promptly shot them down especially the chakra argument. That was nice
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
PeacefulChaosRomaniiTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro managed to put out a strong argument that had a few unrefuted points and proved whitebeard stronger than madara.
Vote Placed by KingDebater369 2 years ago
KingDebater369
PeacefulChaosRomaniiTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Definately like one piece more, but I believe for some reason that Madara is just more powerful, but again - LOVE ONE PIECE! I'm going to expand a little on my reason for voting. Mascara seems to have abilities that are out of this planet. Based on what we have seen he is able to destroy mountains with a single jutsu. Also the jutsu factor is important. While whitebeard has the power to essentially tilt seas, Masada has a variety of different Justus he can apply, and he can use the Justus of ALL the elements. I was asked to expand the reason for my voting by "Ore_Ele". I could say a LOT more, but I have a low character limit.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
PeacefulChaosRomaniiTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Given in comments. I will state that my opinion was originally towards Madara, mainly because of more recent events. I won't spoil anything, but suffice it to say that he's become quite a bit more powerful since acquiring the powers of the Sage of the Six Paths, specifically with regeneration, defense and offense.