The Instigator
reddogs
Pro (for)
The Contender
kwagga_la
Con (against)

Who are the 144,000 in Revelation?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/21/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 456 times Debate No: 99176
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reddogs

Pro

According to Revelation, at the end there will be a people who have certain characteristics, they keep the commandments of God (Rev 12:17; 14:12) and they have the testimony of Jesus (Rev. 12:17). We know them as the remnant, but there is also another end time group given, the 144,000. We find in Daniel 12:1

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." Daniel 12:1

So we have a remnant who are a commandment keeping people who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. But this remnant must go through the tribulation and "the time of trouble, such as never".

So God has a church upon the earth who are His chosen people, who keep His commandments. Now lets look at Matthew 5:48 and read what it has to say:

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48.

So those who come before God must reflect the image of Jesus fully, be a perfect and blameless. Now lets turn in our bibles to a familiar verse in Revelation 22:11:

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11

In Revelation 3:21 Christ makes a promise to the church of Laodicea. "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne" (Revelation 3:21).

So these saints that live at the end during the time such as never was must not only overcome, but perfect and just like Job to go through a unimaginable trial, and be ready to stand pure and spotless with their robes washed in the blood of the lamb to prove to the universe that fallen human beings can keep the law of God. So lets look now at the 144,000.

Lets turn to Revelation to see what it says: Lets begin in Revelation 7 verse 1:

"1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."
Revelation 7:1-4

Some Christians assert that the text refers to Jews only so we first need to determine whether or not this 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from their 12 respective tribes. Lets turn to Galatians 3:29 and read it:

"29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29King James Version (KJV)

Next we read from Paul, the following of who is a true Jew in Romans 2:28-29:

"28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)
Next we read from James what shows that the Apostles viewed the tribes in a spiritual sense. "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the 12 tribes which are scattered abroad, greetings" (James 1:1). The content of James" letter is clearly addressed to Christians, and yet he plainly refers to them as spiritual Jews from 12 spiritual tribes. So its clear that it is referring to spiritual Israel regardless of whether they were Jew or Gentile by blood.

So lets go back to see the characteristics of the 144,000. We saw in Revelation 7 in verse 3 that they are sealed, "3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

In Revelation 14 verse 1, we find the same sealing:
"1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads." Revelation 14 (KJV)
So at the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand they must be ready to stand without fault before the throne of God, washed of all sin.

So what description does scripture give, we find Revelation 14 verse 3 & 4:

"3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.." Revelation 14:3-4 (KJV)

Their loyalty and dedication to God are signified by the images of verse 4. These believers are "virgins', or undefiled by the false doctrines and corruption Satan has out there. They are totally dedicated to God as a newlywed following the Lamb wherever He goes. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and have truly accepted Christ and His righteousness and put on His wedding feast garment, without spot or stain of sin, and without guile in their mouths, ready to stand before God.

We read it in read Revelation 14, verse 5:
"5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." Revelation 14:5 (KJV)

Its clear they have overcome, they are holy and righteous, washed their robes in Christ righteousness, made perfect as God in heaven is perfect. Ready to go to heaven to be with Christ.
kwagga_la

Con

Thank you for intimating the Debate.

I will quickly mention some points I disagree with and will elaborate when you rebut if that is ok?

I disagree with your spiritual interpretation of Israel.

In Daniel 12:1 the reference is to "thy people". Daniel was a Jew so the reference is to Jews. At that stage there were no "spiritual" Jews around so the reference is to physical Jews. This is the basis to interpret Revelations which does not justify a spiritual 144000 who are not physical Jews. I also fail to see how this can be used to say that there are only 144000 people that are "a church upon the earth who are His chosen people, who keep His commandments." Through the centuries there were probably millions of believers who were part of the body of Christ or Church if you will. How many 7th Day Adventists are there currently, not counting those who passed away? It seems there is a numbers problem here. Perhaps the 144000 slots were already filled?

Revelations :1-4 states that the 144000 are from all the tribes of Israel. It is not a reference to all believers who make up the body of Christ. The verses you quote does not change the fact that people from different nations can be believers and not be Jewish. Paul is obviously drawing a comparison. I say obvious because I am yet to meet someone who believes in Christ who"s physical nationality changed.

The letter of James was addressed to the 12 Tribes. There is no reference to spiritual Jews here because the word tribe is not used of gentiles. Although the contents of James"s letter can be used by ALL Christians does not justify the conclusion that the 12 tribes are therefore not Jews but all believers from every nation. Paul also wrote letters to specific Churches but in the end his letters was spread through all the Churches. Does this mean that the Churches he addressed were "spiritual churches"?

The 144000 was men who did not defile them with woman. It is stated that they are virgins. Your remarks that the women are a reference to doctrine are not justified because the preceding verse says that they were taken from the earth, and where virgins while on earth. The next verse says that they were redeemed from among men. Not women but from men.

The sealing of the 144000 is a future event. Certain physical signs had to take place before the sealing is done as per the Bible and nowhere in History were these signs ever recorded. The events in Revelations 14 take place after the Ant-Christ came and made everyone to receive a mark so that they cannot buy or sell. He caused everyone to worship him as god. The temple was rebuilt and he stood in the temple as god. The temple was destroyed in 70AD. When the destruction happened in 70AD there was no mention of people receiving a mark on their hand or forehead. The temple is still not rebuilt so the 144000 cannot be here now. Do you realize that no one can fulfill the requirements of the law since 70AD because temple worship is impossible?

But let me ask you some questions:
1. Have you ever lusted after a woman? And these days you should include man also?
2. Have you ever stolen something?
3. Have you ever told a lie? Big or small, it is still a lie.
4. Have you ever taken God"s name in vain?
5. Do you sacrifice animals at the temple as required by the law for your sins?
6. Are you one of the 144000?
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1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by kwagga_la 1 year ago
kwagga_la
I think they meant: Please check back in a few years for more options
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