The Instigator
professorsolo2015
Pro (for)
Tied
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The Contender
HeavenlyPanda
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Who has it worse? Men (For) or Women (Against)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/3/2016 Category: People
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 509 times Debate No: 94420
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (0)

 

professorsolo2015

Pro

I'm to address an answer you made to my question.

"Men get raped. So do women." That's True

"Men have privileges at work. So do women" I don't know where you're getting at there.

"Men's rape cases aren't taken seriously. Women's rape cases aren't taken seriously." They're taken more seriously than men simply because they're women. If a woman raped a man, the man would be treated like a joke. Even the law says a woman cannot rape a man.

"Let me give you a fact to think upon. -every two minutes, a woman in America gets raped. " Do you have evidence for this? Also, you can't tell how many rapes there for a number of reasons: 1. Not all rapes get reported 2. Not all rapes that are reported can be proven either true or false 3. Rape in your mind could just mean putting a hand on a woman's a**.

"Think about that. While you were thinking, a woman in America just got raped. If we actually took women's rape cases more seriously and started acting like it was an actual problem, more people would be deterred from raping." Rape is a serious offence and people convicted get long sentences, including life. According to the FBI (which is skeptical) 2%-8% (1595-6381 in 2013) have been PROVEN to be false. According to Ocia, there have been 4821 workplace fatalities in 2014. The majority of those are men (92%) so accepting the 8% means that men are more likely to be falsely accused of rape than men who will die whilst working. There were 1402 (according to FBI) hate crimes against gays in 2013, which means that even at 2% men are more likely to get falsely accused of rape than gay people being victims of hate crimes. Men have been imprisoned for long times due to false rape. Anyway, this is why that there aren't as many rapists being convicted as there "should" because the standard of evidence is high and that is really hard to get.

"Think real hard on this because in the next two minutes another woman's going to get raped, and then another, and another, and another, and another. How many women will have to be raped before we actually start taking this problem seriously?" How many men will have to be raped before we actually start taking that problem seriously?

"Do you know what the media advertises in the west? It advertises a specific way that women are supposed to look. This isn't anything new, in fact, it's old information. The fact that this has been going on for so long is sad. I mean look around you, it comes from the TV, magazines, new papers, music. It hits women from all directions and not once have we even lifted more than a finger to actually stop this. And do you know who all of this being done to please? Men." Men are also pressured to looking a certain way, that's why they're more men in gyms than there are women.

"We do not teach chivalry in school. Chivalry was lost when world war 1 and 2 happened. Here's another fact." What?

"-1 in 3 women will experience physical and/or sexual abuse. How sad is that? One-third of the women's population will receive abuse. Think on that, and while you're thinking another woman probably just got raped." Apparently, 1 in 6 men gets sexually abused, although as male sexual assault victim myself, I think the real number would be higher if men were taken more seriously enough to report these things. There would be a greater increase in these number than women. Also, are you talking about the West, specifically?

"For thousands of years we've told women to shut up and look pretty in the corner, and suddenly now that they have their rights to actually speak up, they're making you feel uncomfortable?" I haven't told a woman to shut up but you have according to yourself, you're the only one that seems uncomfortable, ironically. But seriously, who's telling a woman to shut up? I'm not telling you to shut up, I have more respect for you than you have towards other women, according to yourself.

"Sorry for the inconvenience that we've placed more priority on women rather than men." Education for women needs more priority since you can't spell. Why do women need more priority over men? Men are more likely to be victims of violent crimes. Men are more likely to commit suicides. Men are more likely to be homeless. Men are less likely to look after their children because custody laws favour the mother.

"Sorry that we've made you feel uncomfortable." You haven't, but if I need you to read my mind again, I'll let you know...

"Sorry for the inconvenience, but we're trying to change the world." The World! Africa! The Middle East! Islam! In the West? You are trying to change the world, by persuading employers to purposefully employ women just because they're the woman, even if there are fewer women than men interested in the role, and making employers pay women more than men (because the wage gap is a myth).

"If you think it's unfair that men do not have the top priority anymore, try to imagine what it was like for women back in Rome. And while you were thinking another woman just got raped." Why don't you try to imagine what it was like for women back in Rome? That is the past though and none of us were alive, so that might be hard.

https://www.youtube.com...
HeavenlyPanda

Con

My opponent has copied most of his argument from a YouTube video. YouTube is not exactly a reliable source of information. The YouTube video is at the bottom of my opponents argument on round 1 and it is narrated by a very biased man. Listen to the man and you will hear the underlying tones.

Secondly, it is against the law to rape a woman because rape is against the law. I think that's pretty obvious.

Then my opponent throws around three points that have little relevance to the fact that a woman in America gets raped every two minutes. [1]
1. Not all rapes get reported.
2. Not all rapes reported are proven to be true.
3. Rape could mean touching a woman inappropriately.
I am pretty sure by now that this is just some dumb idea you got off of Dr. Shaym. Firstly not all rapes do get reported which means that actually, the 2 minute time lapse should actually be shorter. Not all rapes reported are proven to be true. Most rapes that are reported are are hard to prove. I know what rape is, I am not an extremist feminist.

So all in all, the 2 minute stat should be shorter. In fact according to my citation only 26-37% of rapes are reported. So actually only about one third of raped are reported. Most rapes that are reported are too late. The evidence is destroyed and there is no way to prove it. That doesn't mean that the convicted never did it. Nor does it mean the convicted were guilty. It's hard to determine. And I know what rape is as does every justice system in America.

Then my opponent practically quotes what Dr. Shaym said leaving out all swearing and insults towards Laci. The FBI report was not valid as Dr. Shaym reported.

Then my opponent refuted me with a rhetoric question and some stats. 1 in 6 men get abused. 1 in 3 women are abused. I think by simple math you can tell which one is worse. My opponent states the wage gap is a myth all because Dr. Shaym probably said that without actually proving it. And the only citation my opponent gives is a YouTube video.

So all in all my opponent practically copied most of his argument from a random guy on YouTube who was bashing a feminist. And my opponent only addressed women in America. Women in China, The Middle Easy, Africa and many other countries have it much worse than men.

[1] http://www.paralumun.com...
Debate Round No. 1
professorsolo2015

Pro

"My opponent has copied most of his argument from a YouTube video. YouTube is not exactly a reliable source of information." The reason why I linked it to his YouTube video is because he lists the sources.

"The YouTube video is at the bottom of my opponents argument on round 1 and it is narrated by a very biased man. Listen to the man and you will hear the underlying tones." Just because he sounds serious it doesn't mean he's biased.

"Secondly, it is against the law to rape a woman because rape is against the law. I think that's pretty obvious." You said, "How many women will have to be raped before we actually start taking this problem seriously?". you imply that people don't take it seriously if a woman gets raped, presumably the law too. But yes I know it is against the law, there's nowhere I said it wasn't.

"Then my opponent throws around three points that have little relevance to the fact that a woman in America gets raped every two minutes.
1. Not all rapes get reported.
2. Not all rapes reported are proven to be true.
3. Rape could mean touching a woman inappropriately."
I said this because people don't know how many rapes actually happened and the real frequency could be longer (taking into account that all undetermined cases could be assumed true, or they could be assumed false to create a realistic statistic).

"I am pretty sure by now that this is just some dumb idea you got off of Dr. Shaym." Dumb idea?

"Firstly not all rapes do get reported which means that actually, the 2-minute time lapse should actually be shorter. Not all rapes reported are proven to be true. Most rapes that are reported are hard to prove. I know what rape is, I am not an extremist feminist." You've just repeated what I said.

"Then my opponent practically quotes what Dr. Shaym said leaving out all swearing and insults towards Laci. The FBI report was not valid as Dr. Shaym reported." Obviously you can't tell me where I quoted.

"Then my opponent refuted me with a rhetoric question and some stats. 1 in 6 men get abused. 1 in 3 women are abused. I think by simple math you can tell which one is worse." Once, men are unwilling to report incidents as much as women because they don't get serious."

"My opponent states the wage gap is a myth all because Dr. Shaym probably said that without actually proving it. And the only citation my opponent gives is a YouTube video." Actually, I used to believe in the wage gap, even as an anti-feminist and even when I watched a part of a video by Dr Shaym, I wasn't convinced, because I didn't completely understand what he was saying. However, then I came across Gryffix, a female btw who's even acknowledged the things feminists did in the past to pave her way. She made a video about Onision and she discussed how the wage gap is literally an average of every man's earnings and an average of every woman's earnings. That doesn't consider the work hours, the choices, the risk, or field that they're working in.

"So all in all my opponent practically copied most of his argument from a random guy on YouTube who was bashing a feminist." So you also believe that an accused rapist should be presumed guilty.

"And my opponent only addressed women in America." You did!!!

"Women in China, The Middle Easy, Africa and many other countries have it much worse than men." You totally didn't steal your least paragraph from me and most of your argument from me to make it look like I said something completely different.

Sources
False Rapes:
http://nymag.com...
http://dailycaller.com...
http://www.mindingthecampus.org...
https://en.wikipedia.org...

Wage Gap:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

Gryffix video on Onision:
https://www.youtube.com...
HeavenlyPanda

Con

Firstly I have to state that my opponent copied most of his points from Dr. Shaym with only leaving out the swear words in the video. Secondly Dr. Shaym is extremely biased and puts Laci Greens words out of context and makes it seem that Laci implied something else.

As for the law, no people don't take the law seriously. If they did, they wouldn't murder, nor would they rape, nor would they steal. Obviously this isn't just the perpetrator fault, the justice system is in the wrong also.

Then my opponent tries to state that the 2 minute stat could actually be longer. Let me remind everybody that just because a report about rape is not proven does not mean it's false. Dr. Shaym has a way of twisting words. He is not always right. Let me also remind everyone that a women gets raped every 2 minutes in America. Just in America. Not in other parts of the world, just in America. That's where the stat came from. So actually the stat is a lot lower than that. It could be "a women in the world gets raped every second."

Let me give you some facts about America.
-1 in 6 women will experience a complete or attempted rape.
-1 in 33 men will experience a complete or attempted rape.
Now lets do the simple math. 2 in 66 men will experience a complete or attempted rape. 11 in 66 women will experience a complete or attempted rape. So the ratio is 2:11 for men to women experiencing rape. Which is worse? By simple math, its obvious that the situation is much more worse for women than it is for men. [1]

Here's another stat about America.
-1 in 10 rape victims are male.
That means, 9 in 10 rape victims are women. Lets do the simple math, 1:9. For every 1 male rape victim, there is 9 female rape victims. Which is worse? Obviously the females have it worse. [1]

As for the wage gap, it is a stat that is too general for what we are speaking about. It is a myth so technically speaking, men and women in America are paid equally. That does not make men worse off than women.

Then my opponent asks me a question which is not a point.

My opponent still has not addressed women in different parts of the world so I will. Here are some stats.
-3 million girls a year risk genital mutilation.
-5000 women are victims of honour killings annually.
-500,000 to 2 million people are trafficked annually. 80% are females.
This proves that women have it worse. Are men trafficked as much as women? No. [2] Some women get killed just because their families can't provide enough dowry to the husbands family. That's women getting killed because their families can't provide dowry, not men being killed. Women in Africa are denied education.

Did you know that millions upon millions of girls in china have either been aborted or killed because of the one child policy? And do you know why? Because they would not be given the same chances as a boy and therefore would not be as successful as a boy. The average ratio of boys to girls is 105:100. It got so bad in China that at one point it was 300:100. A generation of girls were killed in China just because women have it worse off than men.

[1] https://www.rainn.org...
[2] http://www.un.org...
Debate Round No. 2
professorsolo2015

Pro

Response to Opponent
Honestly, if you're not going to bother to quote the swear words in then I'm going to regard you as a liar. If he was extremely biased and taken Laci Green's words out of context, then 39,188 must agree with him, several of Laci's subscribers are included. Also, she tries to downplay the actual number of false rapes and pretends that they're serious. She even says that only 2% of rapists ever see a day in jail.

As for the law, the vast majority of people take the law very seriously, including rape. In fact, they take the law seriously (morally), even when it never happened. For example, Emma Sulkowicz, a Columbia University student who falsely accused Paul Nungesser of sexual assault, was invited to the President's state of the union after her accused was cleared, and she was awarded the woman of courage thing from the same University with the University clearly knowing this. Also, her 'carry the weight' thing which was a campaign to get her accused expelled, actually was credited as part of her course. Obviously, this just one in a load of examples but people are quick to jump on to the sympathy wagon, when the majority of reported rapes are never found to go either the accuser's or the accused's way.

Yes I stated that the 2-minute state could actually be longer, OR SHORTER. Let me remind everybody that just because a report about rape is not proven, does not mean it's true. The 2%-8% category does not include those that are even possibly truth, they're proven to have lied. We're talking about 55% that are undetermined, which includes the amount you're talking about. This is why I think this 2 minute claim is just an estimate with no proof because so many of reported rapes could go either way.

Let me give you some facts about America.
- Over 40% of severe physical violence victims are men
- 53% of all physical violence victims (regardless of severity) are men.
- 53% of all psychological aggression victims are men,
- 78% of male domestic violence victims who seek help are told "we only help women".
- If a woman goes to shelter with a SON over the age of 12 (fleeing violence) , they aren't to stay.

You have won me on the rape/sexual assault by gender argument in terms of numbers and I never denied that women are more likely than men. I just think that numbers regarding that are skeptical since with both genders, there's only evidence about 40% of the time to prove that someone has raped you, but with men, rapes are not taken seriously, at least nowhere near the same extent as women. Even many feminists, like Laci herself, and even worse ones have acknowledged this problem.

As with the wage gap I never said it makes men have it worse than women. It's just feminists trying to push for companies to pay women more than men just because they are women and I mentioned it as a minor thing since feminists think they're changing the world and using the wage gap as one of the biggest excuses.

You win with women in different parts of the world. My question wasn't actually in the Middle East, it was more in the West and I should have noted that since that question could mean anything, But there are some stats that affect men unfairly.

-112200000 of baby boys get circumcised each year in U.S. alone at 56.1% of baby boys. However, in Africa, the percentage is much higher (mostly over 80%) and the number would increase drastically.
-Men are generally treated harsher when it comes to sexuality in countries where homosexuality is illegal.
- - Countries where men are punished more severely.
- Sudan (Men die on 3rd offense, women die on 4th)
- Uganda (Men serve 14 years jail, women serve 7 years)
- Iran (Men 75 lashes or death, women 50 lashes or death)
- - Countries where gays are illegal but lesbians aren't
- Ghana
- Sierra Leone
- Namibia
- Swaziland
- Zimbabwe
- Belize
- Grenada
- Jamaica
- Saint Kitts and Nevis
- Saint Lucia
- Turkmenistan
- Uzbekistan
- Kuwait
- Malaysia
- Singapore
- Palestine (Gaza)
- Papua New Guinea
- Kiribati
- Cook Islands
- Samoa
- Tonga
-Tuvalu

Yes I am aware of China's issues with the policy and that's why they abolished it.

False Rape:
http://nymag.com...

Violence:
http://www.cdc.gov...
http://www.batteredmen.com...
HeavenlyPanda

Con

"According to the FBI, there was 79,770 rapes reported to law enforcement in 2013. If 2% to 8% of them are false then that means there are between 1595 and 6381 false reports that year."

"That may not sound like a whole lot in the grand scheme of a country with more than 300 million people, but to put that number to perspective, according to OSHA there were 4821 work place fatalities in the United States in 2014. Now let's remember that the vast majority of those fatalities are men. Which means if we were to accept the 8% statistic, it would mean that a man is more likely to be falsely accused of rape than it is to die on the job."

"But if course, since you're a feminist, I know you don't care about the rate of male workplace fatalities, because you people seem to hand wave it any time it's brought up. So let me use an example you do care about."

"According to FBI, there was 1402 anti-gay hate crimes reported in 2013. That means that even if we go by the low ball figure of 2%, there were more men falsely accused of rape in 2013 than there were anti-gay hate crimes."


4:08-5:21 Time where this is stated in the video. I'm guessing you didn't think anybody would actually check your sources did you? Regarding the fact that you thought Dr Shaym said Ocia when it's actually OSHA. With a tiny bit of editing and re-arranging, your first round argument looks quite similar to what Dr Shaym said to Laci. That's call mosaic plagiarism as someone once told me. But never the less, that's a simple mistake anybody could make and I won't put that against you.

As for the amount of false rape reports, nobody can actually say for sure how many rape reports are false. Considering that the majority of rape reports don't get reported [1] and considering that most rape reports are true, the number of false rape reports compared to the number of rape reports that are true that never get proved and the number of rapes that never get reported, its pretty small.

As for jumping aboard the sympathy wagon, how about I tell you what women have to face in other countries. Rape can only be proven if the victim has four male witnesses or the rapist confesses in Islam. [2]

As for the two minute stat being longer or shorter, it is undeniably shorter than two minutes. Let me remind my opponent that, that stat was only about America. So it does not include all the other rapes that happen in the world. It doesn't matter whether or not America can prove a rape claim true or false because most rapes do not get reported. [1]

As for over 40% of men being the victims of sever physical violence. I don't know where you found that but I beg to differ. Using your source, [3] under the heading "Key Findings", under subtitle "Violence By An Intimate Partner", bullet point 4, on page 2 (or 12 of 124 if you're reading on a phone) it states that 1 in 4 women as 1 in 7 men have experienced sever physical violence. If we do the math, we can find a common denominator of 28. Women having 7/28 and men 4/28. Put that over what the two old denominators used to be which was 11. So now it's 4/11 for men and 7/11 for women. Now we multiply the numerators by 9 because that's closest to getting eleven to 100. We get 36% for men and 63% for women. So actually by ratio, over 40% of men being victims of severe physical violence is not true. Leading me to question all your other stats. Considering that finding that stat was lucky becuase there is about 124 pages to scroll through of dense text, I will leave all your other stats unscrutinized. But I will add that you are only talking about America and America has about 300 million people. The world has about 7.1 billion people. You are talking about less than a seventh of the worlds population.

Then you go on to imply that baby boys being circumcised is worse than genital mutilation. You also state a very muddy fact that I don't think is true. If about 120 million boys get circumcised in America and that's only about 50% of the population of boys. That means that you think there is 240 million boys in America which means there is only 60 million girls in America. That would mean that the ratio of girls to boys would be 100:300 and remember that I told you the average ratio of girl:boy is 100:105. Remember how I told you that the worst it's gotten in China because of the one child policy was 100:300. I don't really think America has enacted the one child policy so I think that stat is very false. Which again, leads me to doubt your other stats.

Then you give stats about homosexuality. Only about 2.2% of males are homosexual. [4] So you only addressed 2.2% of males. Like I said before, 3 million girls risk genital mutilation as that's annually. A generation of girls went missing in China. 500,000 to 2 million people are trafficked and 80% of them are women. I think that adds up to more than your 2.2% or males. I would add more inequalities on women in the world but that would be unfair.

[1] http://www.paralumun.com...
[2] http://www.thereligionofpeace.com...
[3] http://www.cdc.gov...
[4] https://www.google.ca...
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by MyNameIsSean 11 months ago
MyNameIsSean
*two cents
Posted by MyNameIsSean 11 months ago
MyNameIsSean
@professorsolo2015

Okay, so the 2-8 percent figure is a common figure that you might have heard feminists mention when talking about the subject matter of rape, which is the assertion that only 2-8 percent of all rapes are actually false. And by doing a 10-20 minute google search about false rape accusations you will find various articles that references it such as Salon.com and MAAN (Men Against Abuse Now) for example:

http://www.salon.com...

http://web.stanford.edu...

Now i myself was very suspicious when i first had a look at those sources so i wouldn't be surprised if you ended up suspicious of these sites, but anyway let's get back on track here. The problems with this figure is that:

1. It is approximately 40 years out of date

2. It was only conducted in a single New York area in which they had used policewomen for some reason, probably because those women who were interviewed after reporting the crimes were less likely to lie than while the interviews were taking place (i'm not too sure on this, if i'm wrong then let me know).

3. The pictograph as you've said before suggests that every single supposed rape that apparently took place is somehow true to which we don't know if that is actually the case, but also there are numerous reasons as to why a case of said rape wouldn't end up heading towards court one example would insufficient evidence of said rape occurring.

4. The fact that that the rate of false accusations of rape is a dark number and the certainty that we will never know the actual rate of false allegations, even when accounting for other studies that are about false accusations of rape it will still end up as a dark number in the end.

I do wish that one day we will be able to find the rate of false rape allegations but for the meantime, we're just going to have to hope for the best, this is just my t
Posted by professorsolo2015 1 year ago
professorsolo2015
I'll be happy to discuss.
Posted by MyNameIsSean 1 year ago
MyNameIsSean
That's the same thought i had about the pictograph as well, it also seems to violate the cornerstone of our justice system of innocent until proven guilty. I'll be happy to arrange a discussion with you on this.
Posted by professorsolo2015 1 year ago
professorsolo2015
There is one thing I'm skeptical about the source you gave (assuming I've read it right). All the ones that the pictogram shows reported and/or faced trial, suggests that all of those are rapes, which aren't necessarily. Just because something hasn't been proven true doesn't mean that it is not false, and neither something not being proven false doesn't mean that it is not true.
Posted by MyNameIsSean 1 year ago
MyNameIsSean
There is an pictograph about this which you can find here:

http://theenlivenproject.com...

Now i haven't found an article about why the author didn't revisit the graph but i'll post the link once i find it.
Posted by professorsolo2015 1 year ago
professorsolo2015
I actually agree about the 2-8 percent figure being wrong. I take responsibility of that, even tho this was a statistic given by Laci Green herself and even Dr. Shaym said that it was wrong. TL:DR goes into a whole lot more detail about that. The question messed up, though, I should have phrased it the same as the question of which I debated you from.

Also Panda, you've read half of my things wrong
I had one paragraph that the statistics that Dr. Shaym/Laci Green put, and I didn't know how to spell OSHA, and you said that I edited out the insults, which I didn't see in what you quoted.
You said that I lied about my stats on Domestic Violence, I actually used the other source (Batteredmen.com, which says it's 41.738810093939954%) and I couldn't find the part you mentioned, but anyway, according to this, your 1 in 6 women being raped is a lie. It says 9.4% of women, and unsurpsingly, for men "*". Also, during a whole lifetime (according to this) 32.9% of men vs 28.2% of women will face domestic violence.

I don't imply that baby boys being circumcised is worse than girls getting genital mutilated. I typed my statistic wrong, and I'm not going to look it back up, but I think I meant of the 120000000 boys, 56% get circumcised.

Actually, 80% of trafficked people being women doesn't add up more than men at a blank eye, unless you're really good at math, so I'm going to do my research. According to you, 2.2% of males are homosexuals so approximately 77,000,000 are gay men. You said 500,000 to 2,000,000 people get trafficked (including men), so actually the number of gay men is more than the number of people trafficked. If you want me to only talk about the people in the countries I mentioned at least 2,635,884 people are gay in them countries (assuming the 2.2% applies to them all and the majority don't have the death penalty and a lot wouldn't report it.
Posted by HeavenlyPanda 1 year ago
HeavenlyPanda
What are you going to do?
Posted by MyNameIsSean 1 year ago
MyNameIsSean
I'm planning on responding to Panda on the question where she posted. But if you want me to explain how this 2-8 percent figure on false rape reports is wrong then i'll be happy to do so.
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