The Instigator
utahjoker
Pro (for)
Tied
6 Points
The Contender
bladerunner060
Con (against)
Tied
6 Points

Who is the Greatest Batman Villian

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/28/2012 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 899 times Debate No: 28699
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
Votes (3)

 

utahjoker

Pro

First round is acceptance followed by two rounds of case building and rebutting. I will let my opponent choose their villain by adding it their acceptance.
bladerunner060

Con

It is my understanding that you will be debating for the relative "greatness" of some other Batman villain, or at least against the premise that the villain I choose is the "greatest", despite the fact that my position has been slotted as "Con".

Assuming, then, that I pick my villain, and that you either present your own or at least attempt to rebut mine, I choose the obvious: The Joker.
Debate Round No. 1
utahjoker

Pro

Before I get into my argument I will clarify some questions that my opponent brought fourth in their acceptance. First, my opponent seemed to question what I meant about my statement the "greatest villain." This is up to the person's interpretation, it could be the best, strongest, most iconic, or the baddest of the bad, it is all about proving why your villain is the best or just better than my own. The reason why you are in the con slot is because I have to choose between pro or con you can just ignore it.

After doing some research, reading origin stories, and watching some Nolan movies I have come to the conclusion that Batman's greatest villain is Bane. I will be using Bane from the comics and from Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy, not the Bane from Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin because if I did, Schumacher would be my choice for greatest Batman villain. There are two main reasons why I choose Bane, first he is one of the only villains that can compete with Batman on a physical and mental level ,and second he was able to do more in less time than any other villain.

First, Bane can compete with Batman on a mental and physical level. He was able to steal Gotham away from Batman for 5 months in the movie The Dark Knight Rises were he established his own government and was the "liberator" for the Gotham people. He was also able to trap Batman in The Dark Knight Rises were he showed off his physical capabilities. He didn't just beat Batman he broke Batman.

This leads me to my second point that Bane was able to do more in less time than any other villain. While the Joker has been around since 1940, Bane was only recently added to Batman's Rogue Gallery in 1993. In his first appearance, let me say that again in his first appearance was able to do what no other villain before him was able to do. Break him. Bane was able to break Batman's back and put him in a wheelchair until he learned to walk again. While Joker can't say that he only has dreamed of beating Batman while Bane did it in his first try.

Bane is one of the toughest and newest villains to Batman and has done some of the biggest damage.

Sources


http://www.merriam-webster.com...
http://www.comicvine.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

bladerunner060

Con

"...my opponent seemed to question what I meant about my statement the "greatest villain." This is up to the person's interpretation, it could be the best, strongest, most iconic, or the baddest of the bad, it is all about proving why your villain is the best or just better than my own."

This lack of specificity may cause problems. But for now I'll just address points, then make 'em.

"After doing some research, reading origin stories, and watching some Nolan movies I have come to the conclusion that Batman's greatest villain is Bane. I will be using Bane from the comics and from Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy,"

I don't think it is legitimate to simply discard canon out of hand. The movies have messed with canon a great deal, but in order to accept ONE version of Bane over another, you have to give a reason. However, that doesn't mean that the Schumacher version is MORE valid. So while the Schumacher version is a mark against Bane, there are marks in his favor, too. It isn't fair, really, to cherrypick; it all factors in.

I would like to point out, however, (and, SPOILER ALERT) Bane was not the mastermind in The Dark Knight Rises; Talia al Ghul was, and DKR Bane only beat Batman because Nolan made Batman need a cane, so the Nolan version of Bane is nowhere near as awesome as the version in the comics.

Bane, in the comics, has traditionally been portrayed as both strong and smart, and he certainly DID break Batman's back. However, the source of his strength has always been his undoing: Batman used Venom before Bane did, but got himself off it when he realized what it did to his head.

As a response to the point about breaking Batman, first, even that victory was based on weakening Batman first, by releasing all of Arkham and waiting until Batman has exhausted himself over 3 MONTHS before ambushing him. And Bane has on occasion "gone straight", or at least behaved that way on the basis of honor. He even once died saving Batman's life, and Batman had to resurrect him in a Lazarus Pit.

Second, even if I conceded this, it's not necessarily a point in Bane's favor. The Joker did not usually set out methodically to physically destroy Batman, so the fact that he has not done so is not particularly striking. He did gain the power of Mister Mxyzptlk at one point, and took pleasure in killing Batman multiple times (Emperor Joker, [1]), so if we MUST take physical victories into account, the Joker wins. Still, he has always preferred to mess with his foe's MIND, a more insidious and awesome plan. He mostly has no interest in killing Batman (particularly not in the new reboot of the DCU). Of course, he has killed a Robin (in a move where the public actually voted to let him to it, which is both messed up and a point of awesomeness), and paralyzed Batgirl (it took a reboot to get HER legs back). What he did in the Batman Beyond movie is messed up.

"First, Bane can compete with Batman on a mental and physical level. He was able to steal Gotham away from Batman for 5 months in the movie The Dark Knight Rises were he established his own government and was the "liberator" for the Gotham people."

As previously noted, in that movie he was a figurehead. It was Talia al Ghul who masterminded the plan and was Bane's master. But I do concede that Bane can compete with Batman on a mental and physical level. So can the Joker. In terms of brute force, obviously, by "compete" you mean "beats". But Bane is not smarter than Batman, nor is he smarter than the Joker, so what he wins in the "strength" category, he loses in the "smarts".

"This leads me to my second point that Bane was able to do more in less time than any other villain. While the Joker has been around since 1940, Bane was only recently added to Batman's Rogue Gallery in 1993. In his first appearance, let me say that again in his first appearance was able to do what no other villain before him was able to do. Break him. Bane was able to break Batman's back and put him in a wheelchair until he learned to walk again. While Joker can't say that he only has dreamed of beating Batman while Bane did it in his first try."

Okay, Bane did not break Batman's back in his first appearance by any means. Vengeance of Bane pre-dates Knightfall. Certainly, he wasn't around long before he was used in the attention grabbing Knightfall storyline.

"Bane is one of the toughest and newest villains to Batman and has done some of the biggest damage."
I agree with this point! Except its applicability to this debate. This is not about whether our respective choice is "one of" the best, but rather whether the villain is THE best.

Joker was one of Batman's first major, recurring foes. The history alone is a point in his favor. He has killed Batman, he is mysterious (his origin still has not been completely confirmed), and while he certainly isn't usually as strong as Bane (unless we start factoring in Arkham City), he also does not have any specific weaknesses (Bane MUST get regular doses of his Venom, or suffer debilitating side-effects/withdrawal symptoms).

Joker had his own face cut off and then stapled back on (New DCU).

He created his very own "Bride of Jokerstein" (Harley).

He has never been ruined as thoroughly as Bane was in the Schumacher film.

He has been portrayed in multiple universes (Pre-Crisis Earths 1 and 2, InJustice League universe as Red Hood, etc.), while Bane has not.

He's scarier than Bane.

Heck, if we factor in ElseWorlds representations, he was the catalyst for the events of Kingdom Come when he killed Lois Lane, and he KILLED HIMSELF in The Dark Knight Strikes Back JUST TO MESS WITH BATMAN'S LIFE.

His character is so messed up that just attempting to portray him may have contributed to Heath Ledger's death. He's more creative than Bane, and enjoys his role as villain more. Bane is essentially a smart, strong thug, while the Joker actually presents a challenge to the World's Greatest Detective, to solve crimes that "make sense to [the Joker] alone".[1}

[1] -- http://en.wikipedia.org...(comics)
Debate Round No. 2
utahjoker

Pro

It isn't fair, really, to cherry-pick (Bane Characters)

Since I left out the Bane from Batman & Robin and my opponent pointed this out I decided to add some of Bane's famous quotes from the movie like the memorable "BOMB...BOMB...BOMB," when Bane masterfully placed bombs where they were supposed to be, or like when he famously said "errrrrrrrrrrr," whenever he was in the camera shot. Schumacher sure brought a lot of depth to the character.

Bane was not the mastermind in The Dark Knight Rises; Talia al Ghul was

Talia al Ghul was a mastermind in the plot to destroy Gotham it was just as much as Bane's plan as her's. Since you brought up Talia al Ghul I want to just say while Talia was in disguise as an employ of Wayne Industries, Bane did all the hard work, he beat Batman, blew up the city, hurt the stock market, able to get the necessary resources to make a nuclear bomb, and even protected Talia al Ghul in the Pit, without Bane she is dead as well as the master plan.

However, the source of (Bane's) strength has always been his undoing

While in the comics Bane does need a steady dose of Venom to keep his super strength he doesn't necessarily need it. He was the strongest prisoner in Peña Dura with ruthless fighting techniques and in some comics he goes without it and still competes with Batman on the physical and mental the Venom he uses is like adding gasoline to an already burning inferno. While I could argue the same thing when it comes the Joker. Where Joker's strength comes from his complete madness and this madness when not in check can cause his downfall. When he is so blinded by pure insanity he can become easy to defeat when he makes a miss step. In the Batman universe every character has something that be their down fall.

Bane did not break Batman's back in his first appearance by any means. Vengeance of Bane predates Knightfall.

While it is true that Vengeance of Bane was comic book readers first encounter with Bane because it was his origin story, Knightfall was Batman's first encounter with Bane and was the time when he broke the Bat.

Joker had his own face cut off and then stapled back on (New DCU).

While this is pretty messed up, Bane has some horrific injuries that occurred to his face and head. In prison he had his face mutilated by a swarm of angry prisoners and had surgery in that dirty prison and eventually had to get a mask. In the comics he has a tube that is drilled directly into his brain pass the skull which probably doesn't feel peachy.

He created his very own "Bride of Jokerstein" (Harley).

Bane has Talia al Ghul who you even mentioned being a mastermind unlike Harley who is more like a victim of wife beater syndrome.

He has never been ruined as thoroughly as Bane was in the Schumacher film.

This might be Bane's most amazing achievement he was able to rise from the ashes from Batman and Robin. Joker has never been tested like Bane and Bane was able to survive thanks to Nolan and Tom Hardy for their poytral of Bane which shows how great the character really is. Like what Thomas Wayne said. " And why do we fall, Bruce(Bane)? So we can learn to pick ourselves up."

He's scarier than Bane.

Can't say either is scarier its like choosing between having a Great White swimming toward you or have a Grizzly running after you just depends.

Health Ledger moment of silence......didn't die because of him being the Joker it was just a tragic event and taught everyone to be careful with prescription medications.

When you take Joker and Bane, and compare the two and take out the bias it looks like Bane it just better.

Joker fell into a chemical pot and became the Joker. Bane was born in a prison and had to learn to survive and killed his first person at age 8. Bane has a more interesting past.

Vote for Bane because no villain can both Break Batman and Gotham in such a small amount of time and has such an impact on the fans of Batman.


Sources
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://articles.cnn.com...












bladerunner060

Con

There are two elements to this debate that I must establish. First I must establish that my opponent has failed to establish that Bane is "the Greatest Batman Villain". Second, I must establish that the Joker is the greatest.

"Since I left out the Bane from Batman & Robin..."

None of these were reasons to think of Bane as "the greatest", so I'll assume my opponent was kidding. My point still stands.

"Talia al Ghul was a mastermind in the plot to destroy Gotham it was just as much as Bane's plan as her's."

In the movie, ti was shown that despite them leading the viewer to believe that Bane was the elader of the League of Shadows, it was Talia. She was Bane's master, and you can't just state that it was "as much Bane's plan as her's" based on nothing. He was her servant.

"Since you brought up Talia al Ghul I want to just say while Talia was in disguise as an employ of Wayne Industries, Bane did all the hard work, he beat Batman, blew up the city, hurt the stock market, able to get the necessary resources to make a nuclear bomb, and even protected Talia al Ghul in the Pit, without Bane she is dead as well as the master plan."

I fail to see how the attributes that make someone a good henchman make someone the "greatest batman villain".

"While in the comics Bane does need a steady dose of Venom to keep his super strength he doesn't necessarily need it."

"[Bane] was captured, and re-implanted with the cranial tubes, hooked to the new Venom, but now unable to shake off his addiction without dying from the withdrawal." [1]

Venom is highly addictive.

The rest of your argument is that both Bane and the Joker have weaknesses.

"While this is pretty messed up, Bane has some horrific injuries that occurred to his face and head. In prison he had his face mutilated by a swarm of angry prisoners and had surgery in that dirty prison and eventually had to get a mask."

My point was that the Joker did this BY CHOICE, because he's so messed up and evil. Pointing out occasions in which Bane was defeated and mutilated does not seem to stand against it.

"Bane has Talia al Ghul who you even mentioned being a mastermind unlike Harley who is more like a victim of wife beater syndrome."

Bane ONLY has Talia in the Nolan movies. Everywhere else, he does not (Bane in the movie is conflated with Ubu, another amazingly strong character). While this doesn't negate the Talia he "has" in the movie, it's worth noting that there is a huge difference between being someone's henchman and being someone's significant other. Joker and Harley are dating, and Joker is the leader. In Nolan's Batman, Talia is the leader, and Bane is her loyal henchman.

"This might be Bane's most amazing achievement he was able to rise from the ashes from Batman and Robin. Joker has never been tested like Bane and Bane was able to survive thanks to Nolan and Tom Hardy for their poytral of Bane which shows how great the character really is. Like what Thomas Wayne said. " And why do we fall, Bruce(Bane)? So we can learn to pick ourselves up."

I don't think "He was portrayed very poorly a movie, and better in another" is a reason for a character to be "the greatest".

"Can't say either is scarier its like choosing between having a Great White swimming toward you or have a Grizzly running after you just depends."

You are saying that Bane is equally scary in principle to Joker. I would argue that's not the case, because either one of them could kill you, but only Joker is just as likely to kill you FOR NO REASON. I would argue that that is scarier.

"Health Ledger moment of silence......didn't die because of him being the Joker it was just a tragic event and taught everyone to be careful with prescription medications."

I agree that it was tragic. (I question whether anybody really learned a lesson...but agree they SHOULD). However, I didn't say the only reason that he died was the role, but rather that it may have contributed to his death.

"Speaking to the New York Times about his role as the Joker in the Dark Knight, the 28-year-old revealed: "I probably slept an average of two hours a night. I couldn"t stop thinking. My body was exhausted and my mind was still going." He said one pill had no effect and confessed he usually took a second to make himself pass out, only to wake an hour later with his "mind still racing".[2]

He died of an overdose of those pills.

"Jack Nicholson, who played the Joker in 1989 - and who was furious he wasn't consulted about the creepy role - offered a cryptic comment when told Ledger was dead. "Well," Nicholson told reporters in London early Wednesday, "I warned him." [3]

"When you take Joker and Bane, and compare the two and take out the bias it looks like Bane it just better.
Joker fell into a chemical pot and became the Joker. Bane was born in a prison and had to learn to survive and killed his first person at age 8. Bane has a more interesting past."

Bane's past is known, Joker's is unknown. There is no answer as to how interesting Joker's past was, nor is there a definitive explanation for his madness. I suppose whether that's more interesting is left up to the voters.

The Joker has done better than Bane on every metric. He's succeeded in killing Batman, he's portrayed in more media, he's significantly injured/killed more BatFamily, he's scarier (although that's a more subjective point), Joker has had more variety in hsi past, going from god to "normal" person, while Bane is a proverbial "one trick pony".

The only point my opponent brings up that stands so far is that Bane has achieved more, more quickly than the joker. I would argue that, considering the joker's origins lie in Batman #1 (1940). It was a different era in comics. By the time Bane showed up, the Joker had already killed Batman,

Joker is no one's henchman. He's Batman's one true nemesis.

He's got an entire crossover dedicated to him right now in the BatComics.

My opponent has never refuted my point that the Joker's longevity

I believe that I've established (as well as can be for a subject with as fuzzy and subjective nature) that Joker is the Greatest Batman Villain. Certainly, I believe I've established that while Bane is a fine villain, he is by no means as good as the Joker, who has killed Batman in the past but who also wouldn't stoop to winning "on a technicality". [4] He is Batman's "arch-villain" [5].

Thank you.

[1] -- http://batman.wikia.com...
[2] -- http://metro.co.uk...
[3] -- http://www.nydailynews.com...
[4] -- http://dc.wikia.com...
[5] -- http://dc.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by utahjoker 1 year ago
utahjoker
So close thanks for the great debate bladerunner060
Posted by likespeace 1 year ago
likespeace
This was a fantastic debate by both sides; good luck to both of you. :)
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by drafterman 1 year ago
drafterman
utahjokerbladerunner060Tied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: The only real relative comparison Con made was that the Joker was scarier, which is hardly convincing.
Vote Placed by DoctorDeku 1 year ago
DoctorDeku
utahjokerbladerunner060Tied
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Total points awarded:33 
Reasons for voting decision: S/G go to the pro for Con quoting everything pro has said instead of just referencing with taglines. Con gets arguments for offering better and fuller examples. Pro gets sources for cite a greater variety of referenes.
Vote Placed by imabench 1 year ago
imabench
utahjokerbladerunner060Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro and Con picked perhaps the two most legendary foes of Batman to debate over, but the sheer legacy, mystery, and cynical nature of the joker, along with the fact that the joker did in fact kill Batman, while also taking into account Bane's weakness and constant need for venom, is what convinced me that the Joker is indeed Batman's greatest villain..... Arguments to the con but everything else was tied. Other then that, fantastic debate, hands down the greatest batman debate ive ever read.