The Instigator
eyeleapy
Pro (for)
Losing
9 Points
The Contender
Patrick_Henry
Con (against)
Winning
23 Points

Who would win in this amazing epic battle between these 2 ancient Greek heroes?Achilles VS Leonidas?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/14/2008 Category: Education
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,614 times Debate No: 2645
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (8)

 

eyeleapy

Pro

Here are the rules in this battle.

1. 1 on 1 fight only, replicas may be used For ex (100 Leos VS 100 Achilles)
2. Achilles can be killed like any mortal man
3. Takes place in the Bronze Age
4. Use no outside sources, just any knollage you can remember
5. Use any info on the movie Troy and 300
6. No copy and pasting statements used by each other
7. By accepting this Debate, you agree that Logical Master is a liar and coward. (No Matter what you say, if you accept this challenge you are agreeing with these terms)

I say Achilles, this is my opponening statement, as to why will be further discussed in round 2.
Patrick_Henry

Con

Leonidas wins.

Everything we know of Achilles comes from fictional sources. All of his strengths and abilities are fictional, and the goddess which enabled him is likewise fictional.

Leonidas was an actual man who actually lead a nation and armies, who actually knew military victories, who actually understood and practiced command level strategy and so far as Western Civilization is concerned, "saved" us from having Persian influences behind every aspect of our culture instead of the Greek ones which we all know and love.

So, reality versus fiction, reality wins. Anyone can create a badass, its hard to actually be one.
Debate Round No. 1
eyeleapy

Pro

I agree with the statements you've made about fiction, HOW ever, I do not cancede that round to you (As Logical Master puts it)! I'm giving you credit for your own words, AKA props.

But, I never said a piece of paper VS Nonfiction, for all we know, Leonidas only had his people fight against the persian(I'm not saying he didn't fight), but for Mother Greeces sake, and because I love ancient wars in the Bronze Ages, he fights in this debate. Also this debate would be considered to that Achilles is a real person and is mortal man. At the same time he can throw down.

Heres my points as to why Achilles is a much better fighter in a 1v1 battle against the Great Leonidas. Achilles is a much better fighter a 1v1 battles because He knocks other Heroes down to there bloody graves with the swift swing of his sword. He knows all weak points in which to attack his opponents down. He was concidered to be the greatest fighter in the Trojan war. In a 1v1, Achilles has showed countless heroes to thier graves.

Leonidas on the other hand was a fierce warrior and noble king, he was great at hand to hand combat, was thrown out to the wild on his own at the age of 7, but he mainly relies on groups of people fighting along his side. With these groups he form individual hoplites grouped together and form a powerful Phalanx. However, in this battle its 1v1, not Achilles and Myrmidon vs Leonidas and 300 spartans.

Achilles has the swiftness and first strike first kill on his side, plus he has an incredible amount of strength, just as in the movie troy, he throws a spear in a straight angle a feww hundred feet away and kills Hectors Catophract Commander. Now that's tough.
Patrick_Henry

Con

Leonidas was not just a general. He would have gone through the same measure of Spartan training as everyone else, and would have held a place in the phalanx as everyone else. The battle of Thermopolae was just one battle, in a long career of seasonal war fair. It is very unlikely as he would have started in the front rank as a youth that Leonidas never saw direct or person to person combat. The way Herodotus describes him indicates that he was very much so a seasoned soldier.

The Illiad is written from the perspective of the time, in which the average soldier was literally not important. It's not a story of Heroes fighting one another, it's a story of nobles fighting one another. The notion that Achilles was their finest soldier is not really supported much by the Illiad, because Achilles spends most of his time not fighting and in fact, pouting over the fact that Agamemnon took his girl.

His emotionally charged personality effects him gravely as a warrior, and we have no other stories preceding the Illiad, and the ironic thing is that the Trojan Horse, and Achilles getting an arrow to the ankle aren't actually in the Illiad.

In the Illiad, Achilles must make a choice between immortality as a remembered hero, or a long and happy life. He chooses to be a remembered hero. In the Odyssey, Odysseus runs into Achilles in the afterworld, where Achilles regrets making the choice to be a great hero whose name never fades, rather than living a long fruitful life. I'm fairly confident that if Leonidas could offer his opinion about whether or not his death were worth it, he'd know without a doubt that he died for a good and noble cause, and not regret giving his life up to literally stall for time.

Achilles did not benefit from a life style centered around training to fight. Achilles himself took often to wine and women, and laziness, hence his willingness to lose a war over having a girl stolen from him. Leonidas would have been trained in the Agoge from the age of five on. He would have trained to fight every day of his life, and even as one of the Spartan Kings, he would not have known luxury.
Debate Round No. 2
eyeleapy

Pro

Nowhere did I post that Leonidas was just a General, I stated that for all we know he just sent his troops into battle so that i may point out that Achilles is just a myth as you stated, and it was also thought that so was the Trojan War, However, it has been discovered that Troy did exist and the war did infact actually happen. It was shown when they discovered it in ruins in the Country Turky. It also showed the walls were crumbled from a massive attack and buildings were burnt to the ground by old ash remains.

-Achilles was not a mere Lazy soldier but a great hero. In the Illiad as told by Homer, true, it did show him refussing to join battle because of a woman. But it also showed how bravely he fought in a God like manner. His Talent to do battle was far superior than any other Greek and any other Trojan after his Triumph over the Great Hector of Troy.

-Achilles did benefit Training on that by the Gods. In Mythological books, they tell on how the Gods trained him on how to use the Sword. In the Myths, they show how Achilles placed many heroes in the graves. It also showed that not only was Achilles very strong and a quick killer, but very intellectual. His main Talent was to kill.

-Regret is irrelevant to this topic, Feeling a regret would not change on how a hero fights. but since you brought it up, he did regret mainly on the way he treated Hector. After he killed Hector, he dragged his body around Troy for 3 days, it angered a lot of Gods because he was a favored hero.

-The Trojan war wasn't Heroes fighting one another, true this. But it does talk a lot on heroes fighting one another in the illiad. No one had anything on Achilles. Not only was the Trojan war amongst mortal men, but also the Gods themselves. The wind God forced the arrow shot by Paris in the ankle of Achilles. The wind God took favor over the Trojans. He over heard the Gods talk of Achilles' weakness and used it to back the Trojans.

-Leonidas was a great combator, as I said, he trained his whole life learning that only death on the battle field was the greatest honor he can achieve. And true, he was in other wars other than the persian wars. But he still relies on his soldiers and hoplites to combine a single and impenitrable unit. That's the way Spartans did battle. One weakness, which was to attack from the left, can spoil the unit and can cause there doom. Achilles was more of a 1v1 fighter which this topic is about.

-Just look at comparison on how they each fought in the films. Although we'll never know for sure who would win, its still worth reviewing. They show how Leonidas fought Persians, which were mainly slave soldiers with wooden shields and poorly made spears. Then they showed Achilles conquering the beach of troy with just 50 men. I dont care who you are, but that accomplishmeant is a far great one. The Trojans also had bronze shield and very fine made spears making it a lot more difficult to combat.

Achilles v Leonidas
-Strength: Achilles has much more strength as they show when comparing a spear being thrown to kill an enemy
-Spead/Swiftness: Achilles takes this favor by far.
-Stanima: I'd say Leonidas on this one, mainly because he fought for 3 days against a massive army. But length wouldn't matter, because Achilles never allows them to last, he might put him in his grave before the first 15 min of battle.
-Skill: Depends, Training a lifetime in harsh conditions or training many years with the masters of war (The Greek Gods)

-From Above statement on Strength: In the movie 300, it showed a spear being thown to knock a Persian Commander off his horse. It never showed who threw it, but we can guess that they all had nearly the same strength, simply because they all go through the same training. Well, as he threw the spear, he had to Arch it. When Achilles threw his spear, he threw it in a straight angle from a few hundred feet. In comparison, i'd say they were about the same distance. When tossing something that far away, throwing in an arch is much easier to reach than a straight foward toss. You can try this if you don't believe me.

-All I can say is read the Achilles myth, just a myth, but remember, as word spreads, they make all heroes a little stronger than what they are. "ALL Heroes", this would include Leonidas.

Thanx for this debate. You made great points and have some better arguements than I. You are a good debater, hope you win future debates.

"I might lose this one, simply because the over whelming enemies i have made on this site. But it made my work day pass extremely quickly. So special thanx to Logical-Master for making my day pass quickly (This is not to anger you, I'm being serious, thanx for the time pass, it was fun)"
Patrick_Henry

Con

The sources that exist for Leonidas' single combat skills are sparse. Yet, Leonidas was without a doubt a historical person. His fighting skills, his generalship, and political savvy cannot be attributed to fiction, or to divine influence.

If you suspend the acts of Gods, and the things of legends, you're left with a Greek nobleman, that may not have existed, versus a seasoned foot soldier and lawyer that spent every year at war. Historically, Achilles would not have been as well trained, or as well practiced as Leonidas, and while a nobleman was without a doubt also a leader, we have no historical record of the "Ant People" fighting in any other historic aspect aside from the Trojan War. Leonidas' people were a military power for two centuries, and Leonidas was one of their kings at the height of their greatest military strength.

I don't really consider films to be a wonderful source of information. The fact that Brad Pitt didn't throw his javelin at an angel just means that the director probably never watched a track and field competition before. Not really a representation of the man.
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by YummyYummCupcake 9 years ago
YummyYummCupcake
Damn eyeleapy..You wrote alot...I didn't bother reading none of that cause it's soo boring...I'm not really into greek stuff or romen stuff..gah..lol
Posted by eyeleapy 9 years ago
eyeleapy
Kleptin, thats funny, i can actually imagine 100 achilles fighting on who fights best, then fighting each other :). LOL

By the way, i didn't know you dueled... Sweet, hope to meet you one day and duel you in a real match. If you have a DS, i have to WiFi you sometime.
Posted by eyeleapy 9 years ago
eyeleapy
yes, but as for a 1v1 battle? It's an obvious choice, Achilles takes the cake. Much more swift and talented as a swordsman. Killing is Achilles' best talent
Posted by Kleptin 9 years ago
Kleptin
Well, duplications are allowed, as you said. Let's think about 100 Achilles' versus 100 Leonidas'.

Achilles was a very arrogant man who tried to do everything himself. Ana rmy of them would constantly bicker and try to outdo each other.

Leonidas was used to organizing strategies around an army, an army of INFERIOR fighters. Imagine 100 godly warrior-kings working in complete and total harmony.

100 Achilles' versus 100 Leonidas would result in a complete and total Leonidas win.
Posted by eyeleapy 9 years ago
eyeleapy
Logical Master

Learn to debate on a much larger scr=ale and I'll show you, so will my opponent. :)
Posted by Logical-Master 9 years ago
Logical-Master
What is the point of using no outside sources? :(
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