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Lookingatissues
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The Contender
LuciferWept
Con (against)
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Why are parents taking their kids out of public schools

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/10/2016 Category: Education
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 675 times Debate No: 95323
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (7)
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Lookingatissues

Pro

Has the purpose of education of America's citizens as intended by the founder been subverted to secularism indoctrination centers?
Why are more and more parents starting to Home school their children
Has the American educational system been so unionized that education of our children has became secondary in the systems objectives.
Reading, writing, and Arithmetic are not subjects of much importance in public schools any more but sex education and drivers Ed. are.
Doctor Thomas Cooper wrote in "letters from American farmer," 1735 about the education of a countries citizens."The easiest way of becoming acquainted with the modes of thinking, the rules of conduct, and prevailing manners of any people, is to examine what sort of education they give their children....." Why is it that so many of our public officials in Washington have removed their children from public schools and send them to private schools instead, are they aware of the poor quality of America's public school systems and don't want to risk the damage that public education would do to their children's future. Do you agree that public education is a danger to the well being of your children and their future ,that public education isn't educating our children but indoctrinating them.
LuciferWept

Con

First off, public schools are not centers of "Secular Indoctrination". Secularism was the founding principle of our country, hence their is no mention of a specific deity in either the Constitution or the Declaration if Independence.

Religious Schools (looking at you, Catholics) are far worse places of indoctrination. An actual period is dedicated to indoctrinating young children to thinking by a certain philosophy. However, instead of Reason, Religious Schools use Fear and Guilt to make their (pathetic) arguments. This is time that could be devoted to studying true philosophy, or the arts, or history, or the maths, or the sciences. What is worse is how sometimes a period (never the indoctrination hour) may be cancelled so some Religious Ritual may be performed. How many Math classes or Science classes are missed in the name of chanting their hymns and prayers (aka spells and incantations) and eating a wafer?

Now, as for the Public Officials removing their children from public schools. This is, indeed, a sign of worrying times. But the children of the Elite do not go to Religious Schools, but instead go to actual centers of Education. This is because modern public schools are not "Secular" as you claim, but adhere to ideologies which are just as perfidious and disgusting as those primitive fairy tales taught in Religious Schools. Feminism and Social Justice are taught there, and these have all the hallmarks of organized religion. They have chants: https://www.youtube.com... They have unverifiable and disproven articles of faith: https://www.youtube.com... ...... disproven: https://www.youtube.com...

Public Officials find these ideologies useful, just as Feudal Tyrants found Christianity and (and still do find) Islam useful. They brainwash the populace. However, the Elite will not subject their precious tykes to that, so instead they put them in Schools where only the modern Nobility can afford to send their sons and daughters.

My proposal is to abolish ALL private schools and make the officials running the education systems in each district not answerable to some other bureaucrat higher on the totem pole, but to the people in that district. Instead of Oligarchs authorizing what may and may not be taught, the people of a county will decide what their children learn.

Liberte! Egalite! Fraternite!

Looking forward to this debate.
Debate Round No. 1
Lookingatissues

Pro

The question is where to begin in providing reasons why America's parents are removing their children from America's public school systems when they are able to do it. Home Schooling has been gaining in popularity and the public school system has been declining since many concerned parents are beginning to realize that their children instead of learning about the great history of this country and what it means to be lucky enough to be an American living under freedom are instead learning to hate and have disdain for their country.
This lack of patriotism and love for their country in the young citizens would be bad enough and unacceptable but not only are they learning to hold their country in low regard and not worthy of fighting for but the youth in America's public educational institutions are being sacrificed on the alter of multiculturalism, political correctness, and racial preferences. "The Dumbing Down" of America's young students is quite evident by their academic standings as compared with those of other countries. "Overall, according to the U.S. Department of Education, American students' rankings in math have slipped from 24th to 29th compared to the last test in 2010. In science, they've gone from 19th to 22nd, and from 10th to 20th in reading. "
"That drop is mostly due to surging performance from regions abroad, especially Asia. China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore are all ahead of the U.S., as are European countries like Poland, Finland and Holland, as well as neighbor Canada and Australia....." Fox News.com
Reading, writing, arithmetic, the former basis of education, is being relegated to insignificance and such courses as Cultural minority and gender studies have taken their place.
Writing, "Cursive handwriting is disappearing from public schools..."
"...Since 2010, 45 states " including Maryland " and the District have adopted the Common Core standards, which do not require cursive instruction...."
https://www.washingtonpost.com......\l
By T. Rees Shapiro
What is being taught in America's class rooms, its obviously not "Reading, writing, arithmetic, nor patriotism."
LuciferWept

Con

The lack of patriotism is due to many factors, one of which is the erosion of liberties which the common citizen used to enjoy. These liberties have typically been sacrificed to "national security".

You say "the youth in America's public educational institutions are being sacrificed on the alter of multiculturalism, political correctness, and racial preferences." You are 100% correct. However the antidote for this poison is not homeschooling, which is just putting one's head in the sand and waiting for the storm to pass. Instead, mandating that the youth be educated in public schools is the solution to your problem. The home schooled child is just as likely to be indoctrinated with some strange philosophy of the parent, just as likely as the student in a Religious institution or the current public school.

The public school offers three distinct advantage to home schooling:
First, it allows for children to meet completely different individuals, including those people who are not within the same socio-economic class, as well as those who are culturally different. To homeschool one's child in today's age requires enough income for one parent to not work. This means that the majority of children who this one child will meet at homeschool social programs will be from the same social class. It is also likely that they will be brought up with the same political or religious views. Children need to be challenged, the doctrines their parents instill into them, whether political, religious, or philosophical, need to be challenged: this way the child will learn either how to defend these views or that he must relinquish them.
Second, the public school allows for children to have a place to report abuse. It is much harder for a child who is abused to report his abuser if he is homeschooled; but public educators are often trained on how to notice the signs of abuse.
https://www.childwelfare.gov...
Third, The public school will teach an identical curriculum to each student who passes through, with variations only upon elective course (such as the arts or shops) so that Society as a whole knows that the people graduating from public high schools each year are, in fact, educated and competent to some degree.

Now I fully agree that the manipulation and politicization of the public school system now makes this impossible. So here are my solutions:

First, Public Schools be made mandatory for all children belonging to US citizens or who are US citizens themselves. (Children of non-citizens who are not themselves citizens must pay a tuition). This mandate would not exempt the children of the ultra-rich or the political elite, nor would it make exemptions made upon religious grounds. This way, the education of the youth will not be sacrificed to Progressive and Conservative causes, for by doing so the politician would be risking his/her own child's education.

Second: All positions within the Dept. of Education, both at the Federal and State (Provincial) level are elected by the people in democratic election, instead of the current state of affairs wherein the President appoints and the Senate approves. (This should be done for all Departments). In this way, the people setting standards and designing curriculum would not be answerable to a few OIigarchs in Washington, DC, but to the people themselves. Those people who designed and pushed Common Core, being the scum that they are, would have long been voted out of office, as would all of their lackeys, and the newly elected officials would have had the power to revamp the system so that it works right again.

Third: Much like the second, each individual county's Board of Education will be answerable to the County's populace. The measures and curriculum proposed for adoption in each county must be approved by the populace, expressed not by representatives, but by the ballot. This way, harmful curriculum, such as Feminism and Common Core, even if adopted and imposed by the State, could still be resisted by the People.

Fourth: Boys and Girls may attend the same school, but classes must be separated. It is known that boys and girls learn differently. https://www.youtube.com...

I would go on, but everything else on my little ideas lean more towards how to fix the curriculum and not the system.

As for instilling patriotism: There is a fine line between National Pride and Blind Acceptance. What we are seeing now is the pendulum swinging away from "America's always right" and "American Exceptionalism" philosophies (which were just as flawed as Feminism and Multiculturalism). It would much better to have a public education system that taught the children to think for themselves instead of turning out workers for the factories and soldiers for the battlefield. Indeed, it is preferable that they believe their country is worth fighting, killing, and dying for. But it is much more important that they understand exactly what it is that they fight, kill, and die for. Perhaps if America's children were uniformly taught, each one getting an education no better and no worse than his/her neighbor, they would find themselves more equal. The sons and daughters of a wealthy banker would have no more chance of success than those children graduating from the inner city schools. Although this would not be a complete fix to the American wealth inequality issue, the youths would at least begin adulthood on equal footing. There would be far less to bitch about regarding the Nation if the poorer high school graduates could see that all the money of the wealthier graduates doesn't buy them a better start.

You want to increase Nationalism? Start by improving the public school system rather than trying to avoid it. By making it mandatory, for all children, to include those spawn of the despicable elite caste, each generation would start anew: The names and titles of the previous generation not having any real value. Being the son of a Congressman or the Daughter of a President would look good on a resume or a college application, of course, but it would not supersede academic performance in a public school. A student of coming from the upper class would have just as much chance of being accepted as a student from the lower classes, as that no schools would have prestigious private names. They would be equally judged (especially if the college admissions board looked only at performance but not at the background) based upon academic performance.
Debate Round No. 2
Lookingatissues

Pro

I have to disagree as to why our young people have lost their pride and their patriotic feelings towards their country
While America 's parents slept and were mainly unaware, their children in public schools were being taught that America wasn't a honorable nation, has practiced nothing but deception on the unsuspecting innocents of the world and was the source of all the worlds problems. The pledge of allegiance is no longer recited in America's class rooms nor is the American flag honored there.
Those who believed that socialism and communism were the ideology of the future "one world" that they envisioned, stealthy promoted this ideology through the public schools to end the proletariat's long enslavement by the greedy.
To accomplished the socialist's and communist's goals the minions and believers in socialism and communism believed it was most easily to be done through the public educational institutions of America.
Vladimir Lenin said this about the importance of teaching a countries children, " Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted."

lookingattheissues posted, "the youth in America's public educational institutions are being sacrificed on the alter of multiculturalism, political correctness, and racial preferences."
LuciferWept responded to lookingattheissues "You are 100% correct. However the antidote for this poison is not homeschooling, Instead, mandating that the youth be educated in public schools is the solution to your problem.)
lookingattheissues response to LuciferWept's comment..."....mandating that the youth be educated in public schools is the solution..."
lookingattheissues response to LuciferWept..... This solution you suggested is like saying to some one who is being poisoned that the "antidote," to the poison was to administer even more poison to the victims.

#3LuciferWept responded ..." The home schooled child is just as likely to be indoctrinated with some strange philosophy of the parent, just as likely as the student in a Religious institution or the current public school.
lookingattheissues .....There are parents who shouldn't be in charge of a childs welfare but are those who by law have been given access to the most vulnerable, our young children, then to be trusted to their welfare and education, that they would have the childs best interests and not their own personal agendas as teachers.
Thomas Sowell in his book, said this about America's public school teachers, ""...Some of the least qualified students, taught by the least qualified professors in the lowest qualified courses supply most American public school teachers...." . Thomas Sowell is an American economist, social theorist, political philosopher, and author.

LuciferWept responded "The public school offers three distinct advantage to home schooling:
First, it allows for children to meet completely different individuals, including those people who are not within the same socio-economic class, as well as those who are culturally different." This means that the majority of children who this one child will meet at homeschool social programs will be from the same social class. It is also likely that they will be brought up with the same political or religious views.
Lookingattheissues response... Thomas Sowell wrote this about the educational benefits of multiculturalism," The educational benefits of multiculturalism are likewise often proclaimed but seldom documented. There is no priori reason to believe such claims , especially in the face of multiple evidences of declining educational quality during the period when multiculturalism and other non- academic preocccupations have taken up more and more of the curriculum."

LuciferWept ...." To homeschool one's child in today's age requires enough income for one parent to not work.... "
Marlin Maddoux 's book, " Public Education Against America," wrote this about financial help for parents who wish to send their children to private schools," most Christian schools have student aid and scholarship opportunities to help with the cost." For parents who want to home school their children," there are local support groups in your area made up of other parents who home school. They will help by providing the kind of knowledge that comes only through experience. These groups will often combine their efforts and form co-ops for additional educational resources." I realize that I haven't responded to all of the your comments but I will do so at a later date. Thanks for your thoughtful responses to my subject,"Why are parents taking their kids out of public schools."
LuciferWept

Con

The first rebuttle you offer is this:

"lookingattheissues posted, "the youth in America's public educational institutions are being sacrificed on the alter of multiculturalism, political correctness, and racial preferences."
LuciferWept responded to lookingattheissues "You are 100% correct. However the antidote for this poison is not homeschooling, Instead, mandating that the youth be educated in public schools is the solution to your problem.)
lookingattheissues response to LuciferWept's comment..."....mandating that the youth be educated in public schools is the solution..."
lookingattheissues response to LuciferWept..... This solution you suggested is like saying to some one who is being poisoned that the "antidote," to the poison was to administer even more poison to the victims."

You misrepresent my argument: If education in public schools is mandatory, then even the children of the political elites must attend alongside the offspring of the commoners. This will make it so that the elites will be much less likely to encourage progressive (or conservative) education biases in these schools. I will not repeat my alternative to the current education system, which can be found in my second post.

Then you go on to discuss my comment: "The home schooled child is just as likely to be indoctrinated with some strange philosophy of the parent, just as likely as the student in a Religious institution or the current public school."
Your response: "There are parents who shouldn't be in charge of a childs welfare but are those who by law have been given access to the most vulnerable, our young children, then to be trusted to their welfare and education, that they would have the childs best interests and not their own personal agendas as teachers."

Indeed that a child's best interest is held by the parent, which is what makes those corrupted doctrines and strange philosophies even more dangerous. The parent may not consider their ideology to be perfidious, I am sure that those Wahhabis who indoctrinate their children to hate all non-Sunni Muslims do not believe they are doing anything wrong, just as the KKK-member parents feel no wrong in teaching a child to hate all non-whites. Common religious philosophies can be just as insidious as the above mentioned examples. For example, Catholic doctrine encourages weakness and submissiveness; these traits very detrimental to the demands of any job market but quite beneficial to the con artists selling "salvation".

Yes, I know very well who Thomas Sowell is.

In your third rebuttal, you left off a key part of my argument. Instead, you jumped to multiculturalism. It is important, as I stated, for a child to meet contradictory opinions. Not for the sake of multiculturalism, but for the sake of developing reasoned thought. He/she can challenge their own beliefs, whether that be religious, economic, social, or political. Your method is exactly the same way we get to the modern "safe space" generation: Children who's ideologies are never challenged and never meet intellectual opposition. Is the God of the Christians so weak, their faith in him so flimsy, that he cannot possibly withstand the onslaught of philosophy, reason, and questions? It appears so.

I find it odd that you had to tell me who Thomas Sowell was, one of the greater philosophers of our age, but did not care to explain who Marlin Maddoux was. Luckily, we have Google. Turns out he was a "pioneer of Christian radio". https://en.wikipedia.org...
His argument (and yours since you are using it) that "most Christian schools have student aid and scholarship opportunities to help with the cost" is negating by that very fact. Of course someone who has made a living off peddling Christianity would desire that more children are indoctrinated into Christianity, like Mr. Maddoux. (shoulda stuck with Sowell). This is just as true as that the Pope needs children to be brought up to give money to the Catholic Church or that the Saudis make gains by indoctrinating children in to Wahhabiism.

Thank you for the debate.
Debate Round No. 3
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by LuciferWept 11 months ago
LuciferWept
So we should give a monopoly of power to the gov't (that's what Socialism is btw). Perhaps you should actually learn something rather than just parrot what you've been taught. You're the one placing faith in human nature. It's better to compete than give a few the sole authority that happens in socialism and communism. Since your only argument is "They're not REAL communists" it's kind of defunct. Again, only Socialists, Communists, and Fascists are willing slaves. Enjoy your chains.
Posted by BackCommander 11 months ago
BackCommander
You're the one making assumptions, without answering my question.I get it, answering that question will make you look bad either way, but that's kind of the point, no? Funny that you're putting so much faith into human nature. If people could be trusted, or we found a way for a machine to take control, Socialism or Communism are the best options. Any ideology that can continue to survive under the effects of human corruption, are absurd. Take for instance, the good old US of A, which sits here on it's pedestal of freedom for all and everyone having a say in government, while lacking both. A land where politicians can be given large sums of money to influence their decisions, with no one there to punish them if they do. Where an entire city can have drinking water that is unfit for human consumption slowly killing them, and have no one be punished for it. You do understand that as you sit here and argue that the way we do things is the best way to do things we are racking up more and more debt, and failing to take the average citizen into account as we do it, right? You're defending a system where one generation can crash the market, then force the next two to pay into benefits for those same people so they don't have to work. I'll accept that most countries that claim socialism or communism crumble, the same can easily be said for many republics and democracies as well though.

I'm tired of returning to this debate simply to tell you that you have no grasp of how far from Socialist and Communist those nations of the past were. So I'm not coming back after this comment, it's not worth my time. To end this though, I'll point out your two options to the question I ask and how you lose either way.
You say yes, and you're admitting to willingly becoming a soldier, even though you currently aren't one, suggesting that you don't wan't to be one. Willing slave.
You say no, which means that you don't find your country worth fighting for, undermining your entire argument
Posted by LuciferWept 12 months ago
LuciferWept
Most States adopting socialist policies do so with the goal of becoming Socialist. A Socialist gives out money to institutions in order to prop up the failings of those allies of the State, for example: The Indoctrination System. Meanwhile your first statement in the original post was "This has been a country who have willingly been slaves to their government for generations", much like what was seen in National Socialist Germany and Communist Russia and Fascist Italy.

If Socialism and Communism have the problem that they cannot exist with human nature, than they are absurd ideologies. It is useless to defend them if every example presented of them in reality has turned into Totalitarianism.

"On the subject of willingly being slave, I'll ask a simple question. If your country asked that you pick up a gun and be sent off to war tomorrow, would you? I assumed you'll say yes, so the follow up question is, why?" Like many Authoritarians, you assume quite a bit. The purpose of war is for the good of the Nation, not of the State. Socialism and Communism and Fascism demand war for the good of the State. In those countries which adopted these Authoritarian ideologies, people have been punished for resisting a draft. In a Capitalist Society, people who dodged the draft have been able to continue on because their arguments were welcomed in the open market-place of ideas; something which cannot exist in Socialist States.
Posted by BackCommander 1 year ago
BackCommander
"What you're describing isn't Capitalism...It's Socialism" No, what I'm describing are socialist policies adopted and corrupted by a capitalist society. A Socialist government gives out money to institutions, regardless of whether or not they turn a profit. As long as a school is needed in a given area, it would receive funding. Capitalism would see countless students making long journeys to get to schools large enough to make a profit.

"This is what is expected in Socialist Countries. More so in Communist Countries." What is expected by those who know Socialism and Communism only by those who corrupted them. At their core the only problem with these two ideologies is that human greed can unhinge them.

On the subject of willingly being slave, I'll ask a simple question. If your country asked that you pick up a gun and be sent off to war tomorrow, would you? I assumed you'll say yes, so the follow up question is, why?
Posted by LuciferWept 1 year ago
LuciferWept
What you're describing isn't Capitalism...It's Socialism. The Government gives out money to institutions....that's the essence of Common Core and No Child Left Behind...Capitalism would see the abolition of public education and force all private schools to compete on the free market.

"This has been a country who have willingly been slaves to their government for generations." This is what is expected in Socialist Countries. More so in Communist Countries.
Posted by BackCommander 1 year ago
BackCommander
In case you don't want to read all that, the past generations allowed themselves to be told what to do, and when to do it. This has been a country who have willingly been slaves to their government for generations. This generation has access to every bit of information that we as humans have ever discovered, and as such we tend to be less ignorant than those who came before. Why back your government? Because random chance played out to you being born above this specific dirt? No. Anyone with a brain understands that a government is a group of PEOPLE who have to be kept in line to ensure that everyone is treated fairly. Until the country changes to fit the citizens, the citizens will never fight for that country.
Posted by BackCommander 1 year ago
BackCommander
"Reading, writing, and Arithmetic are not subjects of much importance in public schools any more but sex education and drivers Ed. are."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Anyhow...now that we have that out of the way, let's begin. Had a couple of paragraphs typed out but they got weird so I'm restarting. Public schools are now businesses, so they tend to pinch pennies on books and desks, and spend millions on football fields and other "elective" specific areas. I don't actually care about this argument though, its boring.

I'd like to focus on your second round statements though, they're off topic, and sprinkled with crazy. The young of this country have something that the past generations didn't, constant access to the internet. Indoctrination was going on when YOU were in school, and was attempted when I was. Now, a child doesn't hear "Abraham Lincoln was a hero" and just nod and say "Alrighty, Abe was a hero." They look into his background, and see that he abused his power and went against everything a president was supposed to be. For a good cause, yes, but that makes him a tyrant who did good, but a tyrant none the less. They see that blindly backing your country is ignorant, and are more likely to view themselves as a citizen of the world, and of their fellow man, rather than just a citizen of their country.

Its ironic that you speak of the deterioration of America's public school system as if it is the result of "leftist" meddling. Capitalism is what killed public school systems you loon. Capitalism, the "backbone" of our country, is why we are falling apart. Schools are businesses now. They have a budget that they tend to sit on until the end of the year, then they have to blow it all at once in order to get funding for the next year, that is of course if they did well enough on their tests or sports programs that year. School textbooks are often years behind because it helps save money in the long run if that school is more focused on music or sports st
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