The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
PowerPikachu21
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Why believe in a god that isn"t perfect?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/14/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 687 times Debate No: 102599
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (24)
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backwardseden

Pro

Why believe in a god that isn"t perfect?
Why should you I or anyone bow down to, yield or worship a supreme deity that clearly is not perfect? The simple answer is that no one should.
The bible shows god as imperfection. The bible is imperfection.

Rules for this debate:
* Verses for the bible will be accepted as they are and will not be led astray. They will be accepted as they are in context.
* Proper insults will be allowed and provided as cheesewhiz if intelligence and or edumacation is not shown especially if excuses and flat out lies are invented for someone to pretend that he or she shows knowledge for that in which he or she knows not.
* Misinterpreted verses will not be accepted and will probably be scoffed at and highly ridiculed.
PowerPikachu21

Con

I'll try to argue this resolution, though I'm athiest.

I say it's better to worship an imperfect god, as it's more relatable to us mortals. If a god is selfless, omnipotent, all-knowing... where's the fun in that? A god who has his/her flaws, and not nearly as powerful as the Christian God, on the other hand... I'd gladly be at least friends with them!

It seems Pro believes we shouldn't worship imperfection. I believe I don't have to present verses to prove imperfect gods are worth worship, but I'll at least come up with logic.
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

No I gotta disagree with yah there. Its better to not worship god at all. And I am referring specifically to the christian god according to the babbling baby brained bible. After all I think in assuming since you are an atheist I would have to assume that you believe that god is completely immoral, bankrupt and corrupt. He's freely admitted he's evil, that he has anger, wrath, vengeance, rage, fury, jealousy. Jealousy from a supreme deity? Jealousy is nothing but anger as disguised fear. And even worse is this god, this supreme deity neatly passed down these emotions down to man so man could learn to hate with at least 1 billion dead on the battlefields alone all in the supposed "good" name of god. Great going god. Great going for the people that bow, yield and worship him. Those emotions are imperfections btw.
Of course we shouldn't worship god because of his imperfections alone.
But you are right, verses are not needed to prove that god according to the bible is imperfect, and the bible is imperfect and thus should not be paid any attention to unless you want me to? Really. Its not a problem.
So the question remains, why worship, yield, and or bow down to an imperfect god with all that hate and evil spewing that comes from him and the bible?
PowerPikachu21

Con

I thank backwardseden for continuing this debate. Here's an extension of my argument:

Argument:

An imperfect god would be better to worship than a flawless god because humans aren't perfect. We'd better relate to an imperfect god, and if we share similar problems or flaws, we'd feel a stronger connection to this god. And by worshipping an imperfect god, we could possibly encourage this god to keep protecting us, or helping crops grow or whatever. My point is, by being able to relate to an imperfect god, we can worship them with stronger feelings, and encourage personal growth from the god, and perhaps even ourselves.

There's also the fact that a perfect being is hard to come by. I'd personally like a goddess that's living near me, and perhaps helping to stop any evil around me. Perhaps she could also transform into animals. Someone else might like a male god, and might not like the idea of turning into a snake. Perfection is subjective. If I did want to worship a god, I'll go with a god that has some flaws rather than scour all the books trying to find a perfect being that doesn't (objectively) exist.

In conclusion, we should rather worship a god that has flaws, because we can relate to them, allowing for stronger feelings and self growth from ourselves and possible the imperfect god. And perfection's hard to come by anyways, so why bother looking for it?

Cross Examination:

I'll look through Pro's arguments and give my opinion of them.

"Its better to not worship god at all. And I am referring specifically to the christian god according to the babbling baby brained bible."

Ah. An anti-thiest. Don't see too much of those around here.

"After all I think in assuming since you are an atheist I would have to assume that you believe that god is completely immoral, bankrupt and corrupt."

Straw-manning athiesm. Athiesm is nothing more than not believing a god exists.

"[various comments on how the Christian God is immoral]"

Cool. I'll not worship this God. There's plenty of other gods to choose from, though! Zeus, Ra, Thor, Amaterasu, Arceus... they're all great.

"Of course we shouldn't worship god because of his imperfections alone."

"Imperfection" merely means "not perfect"; "having flaws". I'm sure the gods I've mentioned all have some flaws, not necessarily hatred.

"But you are right, verses are not needed to prove that god according to the bible is imperfect, and the bible is imperfect and thus should not be paid any attention to unless you want me to? Really. Its not a problem."

Okay. I won't use the bible if you want. I'll instead use basic logic and reasoning to explain my views on the matter.

"So the question remains, why worship, yield, and or bow down to an imperfect god with all that hate and evil spewing that comes from him and the bible?"

Answer: Don't worship the Christian God if you dont want to. I'm sure Zeus would be happy if you worshipped him. Or Amaterasu, for that matter!

Observations and Notes:

I feel like I should clarify a few things.

1) The resolution

The resolution states "Why worship a god that isn't perfect". So we're not talking about Christianity per se, just any god. Since I saw this, I decided to argue that an imperfect god is more relatable, therefore is worth worshipping. I don't have to show that everybody should worship Christianity, but just an imperfect god in general.

2) A god's existence

I admit a god probably doesn't exist. However, we could still relate to this imperfect god, even if he/she only exists within stories. Our feelings toward this god would still be stronger than us worshipping the "perfect" being.

If there's anything else I should talk about, let me know. Meanwhile, let's see what I've gotten myself into.
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Pro

Something that you are missing is that good and evil do not mix. Not ever. And clearly in god's world, he's evil which is imperfection in which in no way can possibly be worshiped. Not ever.

Suppose you have a person who undoubtedly has raped, beaten and tortured and murdered 6 five year old girls and you have this person in custody" What would you do with him? Why you"d give him chair without hesitating. And you would NOT forgive him. Not ever. He"s evil. So why should god be forgiven for his evils (in which god has freely admitted to) and hate? Evil and hate is the the absolute furthest thing from perfection.

Now I do not know if you know but there are many verses that prove that this god according to the christian bible, and I am speaking specifically of the christian god and none other, hates children, gays, women, and loves raped women. Hey that"s more than half the planet and there are many verses to prove this. That"s imperfection in which that specific god must not be idolized nor worshiped. You cannot idolize nor worship the imperfection of hate. I hope that makes sense because you have a good heart. But innocent. No that"s not an insult.

And then you have to ask yourself is all this hate and evil a need, a necessity, a requirement? Ab-so-lu-te-ly not. Only in god"s world in comparison to other religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Gaia Mother Earth, the aborigines, nearly every native American Indian tribe until the white man sweaty greasy pig christian brethren nearly wiped them out is it practiced and preached.

1. god created man. That"s imperfection right there with all his broken bones, his heart that skips a beat, his old age, his allergies, his strokes, his agony and pain, his respiratory problems, his lapse of memory, hunger, etc etc etc which would include where did he place god for the stupidity factor? So god is ---CLEARLY--- not perfect and should in no way be idolized nor worshiped, Who wants all that in their lives? People want to live forever without all those imperfections.

2. god created man to commit horrific crimes of hate which is clear imperfection knowing all too well that he would commit horrific crimes of hate all throughout his existence because god is based on hate. Hate is imperfection and should not be worshiped nor idolized for any reason. But that is an entirely another debate in which I challenge anyone out there and they cannot win.
* If this so called god is god then he knows all crimes before they are to be committed, and murder is such an easy to spell 4 letter word because man"s body is not shielded all for protection. Hey at least 1 billion have nicely died on the battlefields alone all in the supposed good name of god since his inception. The fact that man and life can be murdered so easily is imperfection. Who wants to worship and idolize that? This god knows of rape, violence, suffering, war, destruction, anger, wrath, vengeance, evil, rage, fury, jealousy etc etc etc. But then again god is guilty of all of these things as per what is stated in the bible.
* There"s of course pain and suffering and grief also that this god knowingly causes especially among children which is unforgivable. Who wants that especially of you are a child? That"s imperfection.
* Even worse god supposedly passed down anger, evil, wrath, vengeance, rage, fury, jealousy. Jealousy? What? From a supreme deity? All jealousy is, is anger as disguised fear in which no supreme deity would ever have the need nor the requirement nor the necessity for. Even worse is this god supposedly passed down all these emotions neatly down to man so in turn man could learn to hate with at least 1 billion dead on the battlefields alone all in god"s supposed "good" name. Again, more imperfections.
* If god is god he created the monsters Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Mao and Hong Xiuquan for a real thriller. Yes look up Hong. He"s a real charmer. From 1852-1864 he knew himself to be the younger brother of christ in rural China. He systematically preached his word of the bible and he saw fit and waged his war and an estimated 20 million died.
For more on this wonderful charming character that I sure you would want at you dinner table https://www.youtube.com...
* Oh yes so if man is created in god"s image then god must be Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Mao, Hong Xiuquan, all serial killers, all torturers, all sadomasochists, all pedophiles, all rapists, all that blow their families away with shotguns, all that drown their babies in bathtubs because their god tells them to, all things that are deadly and go bump in the night, etc etc etc indeed god is imperfect and should not be worshiped.

And all of that leads to"
3. So if this god is to create life, then what"s the point in creating life only to destroy it? That"s imperfection.
* The great flood. Well the great flood really didn't happen because there"s absolutely no scientific evidence whatsoever to prove that it did. None.
* Not only is it deliberate and concocted hate, but it was the biggest genocide if any of it rings true, of all time, if even and nth of a degree of an atom as compared to the big bang rings true. Thankfully none of it is. It is the mere concept that stings in immortality that freezes everybody"s mind who actually believes in this ludicrous jello mold.
* For biblical purposes let"s suppose that the great flood did happen. Then this god created life, then he used his great big sneeze rag to snuff out life and utterly destroy it, and not only saving 2 of each species and tightwad"s Noah and his family isn"t saving life by any means, which right there proves utter imperfection so therefore no one should ever believe in this no named god. And then shebang he recreates life. So POOF like the cream of the crap once again, imperfection.
* Wow what a concocted script of utter nonsense that a god would already know would happen in his preschool mind that he would have run through before the events were to have occurred, yet they occurred according to the nonsensical bible, which doesn"t ring true, so sorry christians, your jello mold of scissor cardboard cutouts is once again imperfection. Who wants to be flatly lied to which is imperfection?

And all of of that leads to...
4. god creating hate and evil. Don"t worry in the bumbling world of this god and bible, there"s going to be a lot more on that, so that"s imperfection.
* Now in biblical terms, yep, god did yet one more of the ultimate in ignorance and stupidity he created satan, so that"s imperfection.

So now that that"s all mentioned let"s backtrack in the bible from the imperfections in the bible and then we can go from there and since there are these imperfections why you should not believe in god"

Contradictions/ duh imperfections
* Genesis 1: 12-13 "And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day." Well that"s a good one considering the fact that the sun was not created until the fourth day. Plants cannot grow without the sun. So not only is this a major contradiction, but it is clearly an imperfection. So right there is solid proof into as to the why no one should believe in this shady god character because of his imperfection, unless you simply don"t care.

* Genesis 1:29 "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." Really? This can only be scoffed at and ridiculed at and thus raise their happy hairy hard off offs at. There are thousands of poisonous plants and trees and of their fruits that bears seeds. Some would kill you. Some would rot your wittle teeny tiny stomach innards inside out. Some would drug you into new highs that you"ve never felt before. Some would put you into a woozy relaxed state of toxic embraced brain damage etc etc etc. So again, *sigh* not only is this verse absolutely incorrect and false because there are some seeds and plants and trees would most certainly cause harm, if not death, it also proves god to be imperfect and thus you should not believe in him unless you believe in an imperfect god.

* God knew that man was to be doomed no matter what throughout eternity with Adam and Eve. So who would want to snuggle up with complete imperfection like that?

Once again I get that you are trying to be on the positive side. But good and evil don"t mix. Not ever. Sadly evil always wins in god's corner which is imperfection and who wants that? Absolutely I'd like to take your side. But its unrealistic coming from a god that hates.

Now here's that absolute worst f the worst. Today I was finally able to read what I've been wanting to read for a very long time: Newsweek's "THE BIBLE: SO MISUNDERSTOOD IT'S A SIN" 12/23/14
Here's a few excerpts...
"No television preacher has ever read the Bible. Neither has any evangelical politician. Neither has the pope. Neither have I. And neither have you. At best, we"ve all read a bad translation"a translation of translations of translations of hand-copied copies of copies of copies of copies, and on and on, hundreds of times."
"Then comes the problem of accurate translation. Many words in New Testament Greek don"t have clear English equivalents. Sentence structure, idioms, stylistic differences"all of these are challenges when converting versions of the New Testament books into English. And this can"t be solved with a Berlitz course: Koin" is ancient Greek and not spoken anymore. This is why English translations differ, with many having been revised to reflect the views and guesses of the modern translators."
http://www.newsweek.com...
So duh which bible is correct which SCREAMS of imperfection? But we already knew that.
PowerPikachu21

Con

Cross Examination:

"Something that you are missing is that good and evil do not mix."

Well, the Yin-Yang states that good and evil are interconnected; https://en.wikipedia.org...;.

It's not like a god is moral and immoral at one time, so I don't see what this has to do with anything.

"Suppose you have a person who undoubtedly has raped... you would NOT forgive him. Not ever."

Last time I checked, gods don't do all that. If Christian God is immoral, I won't worship him. But Christ is said to be holy and loving, so there's why people worship him.

"I am speaking specifically of the christian god and none other, hates children, gays, women, and loves raped women. Hey that"s more than half the planet and there are many verses to prove this."

Alright. I'm talking about all gods in general; lowercase "g".

"I hope that makes sense because you have a good heart. But innocent. No that"s not an insult."

No offense taken. I do have a good heart, but also a good mind.

"And then you have to ask yourself is all this hate and evil a need, a necessity, a requirement? Ab-so-lu-te-ly not. Only in god"s world in comparison to other religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Gaia Mother Earth, the aborigines, nearly every native American Indian tribe until the [Christians] nearly wiped them out is it practiced and preached."

1) I don't think preists are murderers. 2) What does this have to do with anything? You're just pointing out that Christians are evil.

[Skipping over lots of paragraphs, since they're just restating Christian God's evil. We already established that a long time ago!]

"So now that that"s all mentioned let"s backtrack in the bible from the imperfections in the bible and then we can go from there and since there are these imperfections why you should not believe in god"

Ah, so the Bible's imperfect as well. Like I said; "perfect" doesn't really exist.

[I won't address all the statements about the Bible since I wasn't going to use it to improve my arguments anyways.]

Rebuttal:

Don't worship God because he's immoral, therefore imperfect;

This is practically Pro's entire argument. But I don't have to defend Christian God's actions, ideas, existence, etc. This seems to be what Pro's missing. I only have to show that we should worship any imperfect god.

Defense:

I don't think he even tried to refute my argument supporting worshipping gods. I concede that Christian God is highly immoral. However, I suggest you worship Arceus instead. It's a pretty nice god, able to fend off any people wanting to harm it or the environment. It is flawed, like it's genderless, and doesn't have any hands to pick things up with. Or an actual god; Zeus? He's the ruler of Olympus in Greek Mythology.

Note that I'm only suggesting you worship any imperfect god. Amaterasu is the sun goddess in Japaneese mythology, and she's a wolf in Okami!

To remind everyone of my argument, I believe we should worship an imperfect god, because "to err is human". No one's perfect, so having an imperfect god to worship allows us to relate to them. They might have similar problems to us, and we could worship with stronger feelings. It'll help remind everyone that even gods can make mistakes, and we shouldn't look down upon ourselves just because we're flawed. Vote Con!
Debate Round No. 3
backwardseden

Pro

Greetings
Many thanx for an intelligent debate, unlike most. I highly appreciate. Most pull elephants out of their cabbage batbrains from information on something in which they know absolutely nothing about. And yet they try to pretend they do as they invent excuses and lie to maintain order for their ridiculous cheesy ways because they cannot think of anything else to say.
You are right I didn"t respond to your previous argument very much for 2 reasons"
1. I was out of space and I will probably be out of space this time around even though I did address your complaints and ideas.
2. It really is impossible to when there is so much hate that swirls around within god and the bible.

"Now I am absolutely convinced that the main source of hatred in the world is religion and organized religion. Absolutely convinced of it. And I think it, religion, should be treated with ridicule, hatred and contempt. And I claim that right." Christopher Hitchens

Good and evil do not mix. OK then you take the side of the rapist who has raped, sodomized, tortured and murdered 6 five year old girls and you forgive him and you set him free so he can continue to do his wonderful work. After all, the bible ridiculously states "love your enemies" which is beyond sickening.
You also forgive Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Hong Xiuquan, Hitler, all serial killers, all rapists, all torturers, all sodomizers, all pedophiles, throughout time I might add etc etc etc for the same reason. Well after all they and we are created in the image of god. So god must be all of them. Well if that isn"t imperfection, then what is? Is that really what you or what anyone WANTS to worship? Yet god according to the bible supposedly creates millions of these sh---s every year.

Now let me take a wild stab at it here, and forgive me if I am wrong, but I highly doubt if I am" you are white, live in a middle to upper family class household, are rural, you"ve never not once experienced anything that is truly life threatening, and you"ve never experienced severe loss of any kind. I doubt if you"ve even gotten a scratch or a paper cut. Of course I know you have, but in comparison to others, you are Snow White and no offence in me calling you that But your argument #2 absolutely screams of it. How"d I do?
See, you expect everything and everybody to be good, oh how I wish that were the truth and the brunt of it, but that"s not how things are. Not by a long shot in a horrible world.

Bad Reasoning
"Last time I checked, gods don't do all that. If Christian God is immoral, I won't worship him. But Christ is said to be holy and loving, so there's why people worship him."
1. Would you consider deliberate murder of 2,821,364 as god did, and you can most certainly check it out, its not hard, in his supposedly good book as immoral or moral as those numbers would have had to have included children and 5 month olds suckling on their mothers nipples?
2. Would you consider all the genocides god committed for no reason as immoral or moral which would in some have had to have included children and 5 month olds suckling on their mother"s nipples? Indeed god is far far far worse than Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Hong Xiuquan combined. Here's some examples: 3,000 EX 32:27-28, 14,700 NU 16:49, 24,002 NU 25: 1-11, 12,000 JOS 8: 1-25, 10,000 JG 1:4, 120,000 JG 8:7-10, 42,000 JG 12:3-6, 1,000 JD 15:14-15, 3,000 JD 16:27-30, 25,101 JD 16:27-30, 1 SAM 4 34,002, 1 SAM 6:19 50,070, 2 SAM 8 65,850, 1 KI 20: 28-29 100,000, 1 KI 20: 30 27,000, KI 19 35 -37 185,000, 2 CHR 13 17-18 500,000 (and that"s the murder of god"s supposed chosen people)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, 2 CHR 28:6 120,000, Esther 9:5-18 75,813 etc etc etc Yeah god is really so moral huh? There"s no such a thing as "love" within any genocide.
3. As an example would you consider the deliberate suffocation and or snuffing out of all life, saving only 2 of each species, and sorry that doesn"t count, and Noah and his family in the great flood in which is one great big lie because according to the bible there"s no possible way that it could have happened, in which is the greatest genocide of all time in which would have had to have included children and 5 month olds suckling on their mother"s nipples? Moral___? Immoral___?
4. The question remains, obviously, why worship an immoral god who has one thing on his sweaty piece of rear end wipe mind and this was if people don"t worship him, then they die.
KILLING, TORTURING NON-BELIEVERS: The Bible is clear " people who do not believe in God and Jesus are to be killed and/or tortured:
* 2 Chronicles 15: 12-13 "And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul; 13 That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman." What a great god filled with such kindness, love and chocolaty goodness that really wants to enlarge his congregation through peaceful gestures huh? Nope.
Deuteronomy 13 the entire chapter. But let"s look at 9-10
* "But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage."
* Also" Deuteronomy 17:2-5 "If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, 3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."
Hmmm so its practically the same thing as Deuteronomy 13: 9-10. I mean why does the bible have to repeat itself---so---many---fricken---times? Strange isn"t it that why doesn"t god take up the murdering here? Um no. This god wants to have others do the murdering for him, to make an example and mainly because he"s a coward. To make an example of how unjust he is. It is also because he doesn"t exist and cannot apply the law. So you christians, because I am not willing to believe in this unjust god of yours, who"s laws are not practiced in today"s world, and were not practiced back then because if true then that society would have collapsed under its own madness and hate, you come on down here and you follow your god"s laws and you stone me. Oh and while you are at it, you stone the rest of the world, which numbers in the billions, you go on and you do that right now. So why are you not going to follow this insane law of your god? Ah yes, that"s because this god of yours IS insane.
I mean jeez, how far whacked out does anyone, much less does a supreme deity have to be to create any such an abysmal terrifying law AND expect others to actually follow it?
What a truly great role model this god character is huh? Um nope. He"s so filled with such great kindness, wisdom, generosity, care, love, candy stripe goodness huh? Is anyone with a half a of a baked noodle of a brain serious? All you have to do is read your own bible. Nah. Or please do.
5. I haven"t even gotten into how god loves rape. And there"s some really sick stuff going on there. So I know that you are very young so I will not post the verses. But its completely immoral, and totally dehumanizing towards the woman. To give you an idea one verse is where the woman is raped, then the rapist has to marry her. WHAT????

6. What about christ? He was not a god, and in no ways shape or form does the bible recognize this. As the matter of fact you or anyone show me where god grants jesus powers to equal that of his. THere"s not even a hint that this has ever happened. Not only that but jesus has broken several of god"s laws, rules and regulations. So indeed jesus was a false prophet and not a true messiah indeed. So jesus was false, the NT is false, christianity is false.And to top it off there"s absolutely no proof that this jesus character ever lived!!!
So 1 - 5 shows that god is completely immoral, and being immoral is obviously being imperfect thus showing that god is unfit to rank as a god and it is required that he be immediately ousted.

Here"s some Atheist Experience videos to prove just how immoral the god according to the bible god truly is. And since this is true, this is imperfection and in no way should ---ever--- be worshiped.
https://www.youtube.com... immorality
https://www.youtube.com... ""
You"d be a perfect candidate to call The Atheist Experience. (more on that later) It is a show for the positive thinking atheist which comes on every Sunday at 5:30pm EST. They take phone calls from around the world. Now I know you are not a theist, but they take theists as first in line. You can go onto youtube and also watch a few more of their debates. I"ve never seen them lose one in the nearly 12 years that they"ve been on the air.

Yes, Well I am speaking of the christian god and only the christian god. None other. The lower case "g" is earned for respect as god according to the bible has not earned the capital "G" nor does he deserve respect.

Yes I do fully get that you also do have a good heart mind and soul. I hope you can keep it that way for the rest of your life.
god does not have a good mind, heart or soul. Who wants to bow down to, yield and worship a god that is not? That screams of imperfection.
Well I went wayyyyyyyyyy overboard on the space. So I'm going to post on the comments.
PowerPikachu21

Con

Cross Examination:

"Many thanx for an intelligent debate, unlike most. I highly appreciate. Most pull elephants out of their cabbage batbrains from information on something in which they know absolutely nothing about."

Yeah I don't do that. I do my best to gather information, and present it.

"You are right I didn"t respond to your previous argument very much for 2 reasons"
1. I was out of space and I will probably be out of space this time around even though I did address your complaints and ideas.
2. It really is impossible to when there is so much hate that swirls around within god and the bible."

Responses: 1; So get to the point! You've already added enough (if not a tad too much) on your side. Time to start disproving mine. 2; You completely missed my point. Other gods do exist outside of Christianity.

"Good and evil do not mix."

At one time, true. However, every being has both love and hate. Would you hate your subjects, yet love them at the same time frame? That's contradictory. But I hate cruel beings, and I love those who fight against cruel beings.

"OK then you take the side of the rapist who has raped, sodomized, tortured and murdered 6 five year old girls and you forgive him and you set him free so he can continue to do his wonderful work."

I should've clarified. I'm not for evil. If Christian God's subjects do this, then they're bad. But Amaterasu, on the other hand, loves all people, except criminals.

"You also forgive..."

Nope.

"Well after all they and we are created in the image of god. So god must be all of them."

What? Talk about "inventing things to maintain order for ridiculous". Christian God is not his creations, that's a logical fallacy. No offense meant.

"Well if that isn"t imperfection, then what is?"

"Imperfection" is 'a fault, blemish, or undesirable feature', taken from Google's dictionary; https://www.google.com...

Is Amaterasu evil? No, she protects her people from evil. But Amaterasu does have a flaw, like she can't control ground, and is a wolf. (At least in Okami)

"Is that really what you or what anyone WANTS to worship?"

I really don't worship, with me being an athiest. But I might consider worshipping Arceus, though it's imperfect (not really having hands, and only being able to have 1 typing according to its held Plate)

"Now let me take a wild stab at it here, and forgive me if I am wrong, but I high;y doubt if I am" Go for it.

"you are white, live in a middle to upper family class household, are rural, you"ve never not once experienced anything that is truly life threatening, and you"ve never experienced severe loss of any kind. I doubt if you"ve even gotten a scratch or a paper cut. Of course I know you have, but in comparison to others, you are Snow White and no offence in me calling you that But your argument #2 absolutely screams of it. How"d I do?"

So close! I really love to play video games, and I'm also kind of adventurous in real life. I live in an urban area, I have yet to clean my room, and I know what physical pain is. And you must be really deperate if you're openly guessing my characteristics to create an ad homonim attack.

"See, you expect everything and everybody to be good, oh how I wish that were the truth and the brunt of it, but that"s not how things are. Not by a long shot in a horrible world."

I don't get out much. But I have heard that genies are making us sin, churches need to be bombed because they slaughter children, and that evil is evil is evil is Christian God is evil. (Did I mention Christian God's evil?) [No offense] But I don't expect perfection (I said that perfection doesn't exist). And my High School is crazy, I'd better mention.

Defense:

Pro seems to have some things to say about my statements.

"Bad Reasoning";

Me: "Last time I checked, gods don't do all that. If Christian God is immoral, I won't worship him. But Christ is said to be holy and loving, so there's why people worship him."

Pro: "1. Would you consider deliberate murder of 2,821,364 as god did, and you can most certainly check it out, its not hard, in his supposedly good book as immoral or moral as those numbers would have had to have included children and 5 month olds suckling on their mothers nipples?"

Alright. So... do you have a link, or, permit me to make this incredibly outrageous claim, are you making this up? This could be true, and probably is, but give me a link anyways.

"Would you consider all the genocides god committed for no reason as immoral or moral..."

God commited genocide? I'm a good man of heart, soul, and mind, but I'm 90% sure that humans were the direct cause of all this. You can't put ALL the blame on this one God if he didn't directly kill.

And I do have a moral compass. ...You sure are making lots of statements on this one measly statement.

[You seem to be going at this one being a whole lot. I'll skip to a part where you talk about other things.]

God or gods?;

"Yes, Well I am speaking of the christian god and only the christian god. None other. The lower case "g" is earned for respect as god according to the bible has not earned the capital "G" nor does he deserve respect."

Oh, sorry. I'll just go back to playing Okami, and help Amaterasu save the world from evil. Christian God will wait.

"Well I went wayyyyyyyyyy overboard on the space. So I'm going to post on the comments."

Lol. I don't respond to comments debating, so sorry for your loss. Next round, permit my request, talk about other gods. I concede on the part of Christianity. But my argument still stands; we can relate to imperfect gods, making our feelings stronger. I don't know if someone could relate to Christian God, what with all the evil, hatred, rape, sorry I don't do long lists.

[Sorry I skipped a lot of your statements. If I skip over something, it's most likely I have nothing to say on the matter, most likely because it's something long established like evil and evil and evil and evil and evil and evi and evil.]
Debate Round No. 4
backwardseden

Pro

For more on god's terrible crimes and why he was immoral and should not be worshiped, idolized nor bowed down to, see the comments section under my name.

OK round 5 of this debate continues in which I have victoriously won. Why? Because its only about one thing. The imperfection of the christian god and why he should not be worshiped. Hate cannot be worshiped, bowed down to nor idolized. Not ever especially coming from god"s jabbering maw.
Granted, you did try to manipulate the debate and gear it towards your corner, but the debate was never about what you wanted to make it about. But I do give you credit for trying.

"Yeah I don't do that. I do my best to gather information, and present it." Then why didn"t you? More on that later. And no offence, but its going to be a slaughter in a few swift strokes because I read ahead like everybody should always do before they get down to typing anything up.

"1; So get to the point! You've already added enough (if not a tad too much) on your side." Nope because it didn't sink in. You still don"t get that you can never give into hate because if you do then only more hate will ensue. That's how its been throughout history. Religion and god has proven that time and time again.

"Time to start disproving mine." No its not because that"s not what this debate is about. Sure other gods, well you said "exist", well no they don"t and neither does god. There"s no evidence he exists. None.

"Good and evil do not mix."
Once again god and evil do not mix, not ever. You are right you are not evil. But god certainly is. Do you see the difference? God creates these cruel human beings and he 100% knows that these cruel human beings will turn out to be cruel human beings quadrillions of years in advance. If not, then god is not a god and he is not in control of everything, he does not know everything, he is not all knowing nor is he all powerful, nor is he omnipotent, and nor is he perfect.
See the thing is, is that behind god, the bible and religion there"s no thinking, reasoning, rationalizing, common sense, nor logic because none is required.

"At one time, true. However, every being has both love and hate." Well now you are grasping at straws. In the land of god evil and hate is taught and practiced a lot more, by far, than with (and I"m pretty sure I mentioned this already) the aborigines, Gaia Mother Earth, nearly every single Native American Indian tribe before the white man christian sweaty pig greasy nothingness wiped them out, the Buddhists, Hindus, etc etc etc Evil and hate is not taught at all in comparison. And then here comes god and POOF everybody is expected to follow him and if not, then its death according to him as I have showed you yesterday with some wonderful verses.

"Would you hate your subjects, yet love them at the same time frame? That's contradictory." Yes---it---is. And now I think you are finally beginning to get it. "But I hate cruel beings, and I love those who fight against cruel beings." Whoever said cruel beings have to exist? Only in god"s world. Strange isn"t it that with all mentioned, they all lived at peace with the earth and at one with the earth.
Not according to god. To worship other god"s that"s the most evil thing there is and automatically warrants death.

OK well then if you stand for god, then you stand for evil and hate which is imperfection. There"s no other way of looking at it. After all did or did god not create satan? And get this, according to the bible satan only killed 10. god 2,821,364

And see I don"t know anything at all about Amaterasu. But the Buddhists on the other hand taught the "end" of suffering. Christ taught the "beginning" of suffering. BIG HUGE MONUMENTAL DIFFERENCE. That is so such a side door to imperfection.

"Christian God is not his creations," Really? According to what? You? How would you know? What grade of thought pattern gone do you really know to have thought of that? Its none. No offense meant.Ab-so-lu-te-ly he is. Especially if he can create the universe in 6 days. And think about this, like this god is NOT going to be in charge with his supreme ego flying all over the place for some simpleton like you are me to take over his ridiculous little schemes? Um no, this god that doesn't exist is in charge of everything at every time and everywhere. And your Free Will is worthless. So he has to take charge of all of his little imperfections and toys. Regardless, he can"t do it anyway because he"s not perfect.

From dictionary.com which is a lot better. There are 9 definitions. 4 fit.
1. of, relating to, or characterized by defects or weaknesses:
imperfect vision.
2. not perfect; lacking completeness:
imperfect knowledge.
3. Grammar. noting action or state still in process at some temporal point of reference, particularly inthe past.
4. Law. being without legal effect or support;unenforceable.

Was Amaterasu taught evil? Probably not. Did Amaterasu ever practice evil? Probably not to that as well also, at least in comparison to the blubbering lard that is the sniveling god.
And you are also forgetting that god is supposed to be this "one" big god to rule the universe. And if this one big god ever knew of Amaterasu, he"d most certainly would have murdered it without question.

"Is that really what you or what anyone WANTS to worship?" We"re going to ask that question later if my space does not run out. If it does, I"ll ask it in the comments section.

Now the reason why I put that "physical pain" through to you is OK please describe it. I"m talking about so close to death physical pain that you are in pain 24/7 that you cannot even move one fricken inch without being in pain. See this christian god creates people like that. That"s imperfection. And its also evil and hate. And if god is god, he can easily bypass it.

Your high school is CRAZY? My senior year was the best year of my life by far. It was my freest. I could breathe with no worries. And I had great friends then that believe it or not that I still have today. I"ve known them for 39+ years.

2,821,364 is the number that god murdered in his bible. Oh of course I have proof. Read the book entitled "Drunk With Blood" . You can look it up on Amazon.com and scroll on down to The Introduction and a little bit past that. But it doesn"t take too much to figure out that the figures are indeed correct. You can also hear an excerpt from it in Numbers.
* Or better yet you can listen to it on youtube.

Now its time for me to get a little bit huffy here" sorry but you most certainly did NOT do your homework here. "God commited genocide? I'm a good man of heart, soul, and mind, but I'm 90% sure that humans were the direct cause of all this." Did you look up the verses in which I handed to you on a silver platter? Clearly and obviously and rather blatantly not. See that"s what christians do. They do not ---ever--- (and I"m not grouping you into their category here because you do look things up, but here you didn"t) look up anything that is point blank handed to them that is solid evidence proving that they god is 100% pure evil and bent on hate. AND all those verses are deliberate consuming genocides brought on by god. AND come on here, if god is god, a genocide is NOT a way to solve a problem. Its like he"s a little baby throwing a temper tantrum with his rattle say goo goo ga ga. If he doesn"t get his way and doesn"t see something he doesn"t like and if someone disagrees with him, hey its simple, he murders them.
"You can't put ALL the blame on this one God if he didn't directly kill." Oh-yes-you-can because for those verses, all of them he put the orders in or did the killing and slaughter himself.

So again is that sickening little coughed up dishrag god worth worshiping with all of his imperfections? The answer is a simple "no".

With this debate at round 5 there"s really not much more to say.

The god of the bible who is clearly immoral, bankrupt and corrupt, committed genocide after genocide, murdered innocent child after child for absolutely no reason at all.

Summary:
I win this debate because my opponent did not stay focused on the main topic at hand with was god's immorality and why he should not be worshiped. She brought up different ideals and fixations that had nothing to do with the debate.

Regardless, its been a really cool debate and I really like my opponent in spite of the fact that she did go astray. I either hope that we can remain friends or to hope to see her around.

For more on god's terrible crimes and why he was immoral and should not be worshiped, idolized nor bowed down to, see the comments section under my name.
Thanx and have fun!
PowerPikachu21

Con

Alright. Let's see where we stand. I'll restate my arguments, and how Pro did or didn't respond to them.

Other gods aside from Christian God;

Zeus should at least be common knowledge. Zeus from Greek Mythology, he's the god of Thunder, and ruler of all Greek gods. Though I should've expanded on Amaterasu, who's the Japanese goddess of the sun. Here's a late link; https://en.wikipedia.org...

Amaterasu is the main character of CapCom's game Okami, which is based off of Japanese folklore. That's where I'm most familiar with Amaterasu. Arceus is the god of Pokemon, and though I joke about it being in this world, Arceus is still a god (though of a video game, so that's stretching it pretty far).

Now, do they exist? Within stories, yes. But note my response to this; even if they exist only within stories, we can still relate to them, allowing for stronger worship.

The resolution;

Yeah, I guess I did take advantage of my understanding of the resolution of "Why believe in a god that isn"t perfect?". But it seems so broad, and this definitely would include any non-specific god, such as Zeus or Amaterasu or Thor. We'll let the voters determine how the resolution is supposed to be interpreted.

Immoral Christian God;

You don't have to keep hammering it in. I have no intention of having anything to do with this god. I won't worship, and you convinced me to not use sources, specifically the bible. But you have not dealt with the real resolution at hand; worshipping any god. And when does good and evil need to exist within the same time frame? This isn't even relevant to begin with!

Anyways, there's nothing much more to say. Both sides have stuck true to their own arguments, it's up to the voters to determine whose arguments are correct.
Debate Round No. 5
24 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by whiteflame 7 months ago
whiteflame
Yeah, not sure how this ended up here, must've just put the wrong link.
Posted by PowerPikachu21 7 months ago
PowerPikachu21
Wrong debate, whiteflame. Go to bed instead of trying to moderate votes at 3 AM, you might make mistakes without good sleep.
Posted by whiteflame 7 months ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: dsjpk5// Mod action: NOT Removed<

1 points to Con (Conduct). Reasons for voting decision: Pro displayed poor conduct by calling Con "roach meat" in round two.

[*Reason for non-removal*] The voter sufficiently explains the allocated point by providing an insulting statement made within the debate. The voter is never required to award any points they do not wish to award, regardless of perceived obviousness.
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Posted by PowerPikachu21 7 months ago
PowerPikachu21
The RFD was a bit hard to understand, but I do agree with the Mod action. And I never really tied Christ into my argument. (Also, a few misspelled words aren't reason enough to award S&G points. You can only award it if you can't understand what the debater is trying to say.)
Posted by whiteflame 7 months ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: princearchitect// Mod action: Removed<

4 points to Con (Conduct, Arguments), 2 points to Pro (Sources). Reasons for voting decision: I have read this debate and I have to give a slight edge to Con, I think Pro started off very strong and I was going to award him with more convincing arguments, but I think Con did a fantastic job in proving his case with more convincing cross-examinations and defense arguments. I think one of the clear distinctions is Con awarded better conduct. Pro and Con had misspelled words in their grammar so that remains a tie. Pro and Con presented some good arguments in general and like I said early in the debate Pro had the advantage but I think Con made some valid points and personally I relate more to Cons arguments from the perspective of human beings relating better to an imperfect god than not at all because as a Christian perspective Jesus Christ suffered the pain, the anguish, the heartache as we have suffered in that we serve a God that understands exactly what we're going through so convincing argument goes to Con, I think Pro used the most reliable sources so that point goes to him

[*Reason for removal*] (1) Conduct is insufficiently explained. The voter has to point out where the conduct violation is in the debate. (2) Sources are insufficiently explained. The voter is required to specifically analyze the sources given in the debate. Merely restating the decision is not sufficient. (3) Argumetns are insufficiently explained. The voter has to analyze specific points made by both sides. It"s unclear that either side"s arguments are analyzed in this RFD, as the voter just explains what points he relates more to rather than examining those points.
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Posted by PowerPikachu21 8 months ago
PowerPikachu21
@princearchitect You mean it's not okay to talk about Pokemon? I'm offended.
Posted by princearchitect 8 months ago
princearchitect
@Shannon83 so basically your justifying behavior that it's perfectly okay to talk about things that don't exist?
Posted by shannon83 8 months ago
shannon83
Pikachu I choose you.... though I think Darwin destroyed Ash in the rap battle.

Now on Topic I agree with @PowerPikachu21. Just because the person does not believe the entity exists does not mean they cannot talk about such entity. Example I can talk about the Walking Dead's Rick Grims and what i wish the guy would do. I in no way believe Rick is a real person in the real world as such I talk about Ricks action in a world that he would exist. The same can be done with the Christian god or any other gods. Just because you do not believe in it would in no way invalidate your points on the matter. So to answer @princearchitect an atheist can talk and debate about a god because in the argument they are supposing if the thing existed. No need to actually believe in the thing.
Posted by PowerPikachu21 8 months ago
PowerPikachu21
The gods I listed aren't actual beings in real life, but they do exist within stories (as well as other media like TV and video games). I state this in my Round 2.
Posted by princearchitect 8 months ago
princearchitect
How can God be anything if he doesn't exist? He can't be perfect or non-perfect, he can't be a murderer
or anything else if he doesn't exist.
No votes have been placed for this debate.