The Instigator
Con (against)
0 Points
The Contender
Pro (for)
7 Points

Why would an all knowing God(Christian) create Lucifer, if he knew he was going to betray him?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/26/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 345 times Debate No: 87272
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (2)
Votes (2)




Why would an all knowing God ( Christian ) create Lucifer if he knew that he would betray him? And cause so much pain and suffering upon his people, that he loves so much?


In the religious texts of Islam, it is stated there came "Djinn" (genie), the first inhabitants of Earth. Created in smokeless fire, these beings are mischievious and single-minded, far more powerful than man with abilities supposed to be in present day, such as invisibility. After the Djinn came man, made of clay. He was created in image of a god being, or construct or super-structure.

A conceivable reason that a perfect being might create something that would end up as an ulterior power to him could be many. He could. In a strict sense the angel known Lucifer, the one first to descend beneath heaven, along with Beelzebub and Leviathan, would inhibit a prototypical, even ideal method of creation which is (perhaps) beyond the understanding of in this case humans, lesser beings in this sense. Suppose would be a progression of novel feats by this supreme being used to create things, in this case the earth and all that revolves around it, in seven days. An action we might take that could be similar might exist as art, like Pollock's intuitive slinging of paint onto a large canvas, but of considerably lesser gravity. Although it could also very well resemble the form of playing heads or tails with a coin, we must assume that a higher power is perfect, and thus it knows what's going to happen in the end. This conjecture aside, there are other reasons why the existence of lesser, anti-thetical, but still notably impressive, being could hold a place of imperative and necessity, in a reality like our own.

Assume that actions hold a permanence. A static--in religious texts, a moral-spiritual foundation where sometimes everything we do is being cemented and immortalized in the longer scheme of things-- an ever-lasting effect that is undying, though for instance scarcely, or even being an insight impossible by beings who, in comparison to a god are of a substantially lesser intrinsic awareness... To assume, now, that Eve had eaten the Fruit of Knowledge: and before that, Lilith had abandoned Adam and the Garden of Eden, and the children of Adam and Eve--the rib of Adam--had eventually ended up with a lifeline much a fraction of the span they and Abraham, and his sons and grandchildren and so on had possessed (beating our own by hundreds, sometimes thousands of years), as shown in the book "Chronicles" of the Bible, was found (somehow) to be real. And that, not it had all been for a reason, but that a god's first acts of creation, and what followed, would simply end up this way today without Him feeling the need to do anything about it. He is, after all, perfect. And a perfect, omnibenevolent entity doesn't need to rescind what has come to follow his actions. In Thomas Acquinas' interpretation of the greek "On the Celestial Hierarchy," there exists "three hierarchies each of contain three orders, based on their proximity to God, corresponding to the nine orders of angels recogtnized by Pope St. Gregory I."

1. Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones;
2. Dominations, Virtues, and Powers;
3. Principalities, Archangels, and Angels.

It's typically said that Lucifer had been cast into hell as part of his envy of humanities origin as that of a template created in the image of God. When I was confirmed, I chose Michael as my Christian name. Michael is an Archangel (a bit low, isn't it!) though he is said to be the one leading an army of God's angels to combat Lucifer's forces. The force said to combat Lucifer himself in this regard to hierarchy is less certain in the reference I'm citing: the Classification of Demons in the "Marvelous History," by Sebastien Michaelis. Though one thing is extensively noted: the personification of humanity as "clay," a malleable, mold-able substance which though it can hold it's own once constructed into proper form in a furnace, is quite admirable in it's ability to hold together on it's own, without any help. Clay is a noble representation of free will in humanity, and in the context of Christianity, free will encompasses both good and evil, vice and virtue.

In the classification of demons, there exist different interpretations by many different individuals, starting typically from a first hierarchy, down to a second and finally third. There are over 9000 different demons said to inhabit certain people through events that have been written down. And for every which demons there is, there is usually a saint who stands in opposition to it.

Now consider an secondary possibility: The existence not of a being that has conceived the aforementioned, but rather than a god so to speak, exists as an entity.

An engine via which reality has come to rely unto its foundation. Perhaps it was created by a god who like before, has enacted fantastical, novel feats or more classically divine appropriation. Those of which are possible through his mastery of physical reality--but who now has either been made inert, or is unpresent altogether. This "engine" would exist as the super-structure for which reality continually exists, in a static continuity, an alternating, dynamic, ever-changing flux, or as any other number of possibilities unknown to us under which existence takes it's seat...

Demons have been known to be much like the angels of Christian heaven very much the same, concurring on what some would measure as the opposite end of YHWH and his angels in this the penultimate paradigm of good and evil presented to us via the various bibles which represent Christianity as a whole. Demons, as angels, stand simply as sentinels in the greater scheme concerning the battle between heaven and hell ajoint the fate of humanity. Demons, unlike angels, however, simply have some faulty programming: they do not necessarily recognize God as an ultimate power, creator.

Lucifer, a king of demons, stands simply as an aside aspect of the overall picture in any of the above contexts. In the eyes of a single, all-powerful and ruling god, or of an engine acting as as superstructure /in place/ of the god... the djinn, demons and Devil stand simply as what we might regard as transitory data on this subject, posing hardly any (if at all) possible deterrance to Him as such in the span of eternity concerning humanity: he's omnibenevolent--he already knows what's going to happen, when, and how. And thus the existence of a demon king is one of many irrelevant details in this ruling construct's eyes; his "love" for us all the while remaining pure, perfect and true.
Debate Round No. 1


You stated why God created Lucifer and such yet did not back up why creating Lucifer caused great pain and death to many. Essentially he caused original sin itself. You have stated why God created Lucifer but did not argue how this did not cause humans pain and suffering. And then why would God have been so Mad at the serpent, and Adam, and Eve if that was what he wanted? I did enjoy your story, and you made many good references.


In the topic it is presented that Lucifer has caused suffering; also accounted for is the matter of why God would allow such things, and in response a few considerations were given.

It wasn't a qualifier to "back up" such things, though this can be explored. The existence of the devil certainly did cause pain and suffering to us under the doctrine of the Christian bible.

This additional query, although perhaps related, is tangential. In "betraying" god--something that is perfect--the devil has degenerated and rendered corrupt. And thus he has been thrown into the pits of hell.

As far as "Why God created Lucifer," my statements most prominently give the assertion that we simply cannot accurately conceive of why God would do anything he does. In it's full regalia, it is indeterminable due to our limitations, unless approached from the stature of a supposedly ideal morality.

Additionally, in the various texts represented under the umbrella of Christianity, there are various and different reasons as to why Lucifer's existence would have imposed upon us these happenings, which have arisen from circumstance which deviate from grace... in this case, pain, and death and original sin.

Lucifer is a fallen angel. A sentinel who would otherwise remain within the ranks of angels. If not for his faulty programming, he would exist as a being purely of an unadulterated reverence to God.

If not for his pride...

Many denominations believe he has been given conscription (or, allowance) by God to influence the realm of mortals. An integral part of Christianity--free will--goes hand in hand with this idea: as a human you can choose what you want to do, good or bad; the side of righteousness--perfection, or the milieu of evil, and Lucifer plays an integral part in this conjecture.

The creation of Lucifer by a God absent of faults has caused pain, suffering. Yes? It was God's actions that eventually allowed this. Lucifer and his deeds being simply an extension of this operation by God, perhaps even himself having free will (maybe not, it could be destined). In purity of a god as the highest power, this does not necessarily equate to destiny ending as a finality of circumstance equating to pain and suffering for humans, on God's part.

But that is a less than exemplary reasoning for this quandary you've supposed.

As a more direct reasoning in answer of your question, in a biblical passage: Isaiah 14:12-24, it is stated that "Motivated by pride, Satan set out on an irrational course to seize for himself God's authority over the universe." Though it may be redundant to say, by the word of Christianity, this would stand as a reason for why Lucifer has created suffering, pain and death--as an extension of being created by god, he is a backer of what Man as clay represents: malleability, the quality of being mold-able (wetness), while having a relative ability of being able to retain form. We are created in the image of God, with Satan existing as an influence as an aside, and as such we have the options of heaven, purgatory and hell.

This is the natural progression in the irrational course of action undertaken by him (Lucifer). in opposition to an almighty figure of absolute purity, an unbridled authority and power in the universe. We have free will and thus Satan, in his capacity of dissent, is able to tempt us. In retrospect, Lucifer represents one side of the same coin. But heads is still heavier than tails...

Your question about why God would be upset, angry, "mad" at "the serpent" can be answered in conjunction with my previous assertions.

It isn't necessarily that God is mad at Lucifer. It is not that he's not mad at Adam and Eve. In fact, that is impossible according to Christian doctrine, as YHWH is an entity of pure love. It is that by having disgraced himself amidst a supreme being, Lucifer essentially did not make the grade. And thus, though retaining the structural qualities of an angel, he has by his own intrinsic faults descended and inevitably motioned towards tempting Eve to pluck the proverbial fruit and thus enact what is known as the duality of evil, original sin, versus good.

Anything another entity does in comparison of the Christian God exists simply as a shadow that pales in comparison, lest present with him in heaven. And as such, the pain and suffering enacted upon us by Lucifer--the creation of God--is in the end the fault of only ourselves.
Debate Round No. 2


TheNextDaVinci forfeited this round.


I am reasserting my previous arguments due to the forfeiture.
Debate Round No. 3


sorry for not responding in the round before, i was really busy.

To me, the whole reason of a debate is to find the truth, or the answer, and in this debate, you have, with logical, and reasoning thinking, and to me have provided many good references to support it too. I have also enjoyed reading you work, and thanks you for the amount of time you put into it.

In another question that could arise from this topic, that is some also not necessary for you to answer, but would be some what relavent, is why would Lucifer rebal againtst God, with Lucifer being God's "Left hand man" and a knowing God very well, why would he not love God? If God is all loving, merciful, reasonable, perfect, etr, why whould Lucifer not want that? and must also know that God is all knowing, and in the end would lose to God, not saying that's why you would love God, because loveing someone because of fear is meaningless love.


Reason for falling out to begin with was due to his own free will. He and other demons reject the notion of god being perfect and hate human beings, or even all of creation, thus inhabiting Earth as a ruling power in the form of evil, and because he chose to rebel against god, it's probably safe to assume that tempting man into sin would go along with his rejection of god as perfect.

I don't think the left hand thing is in any Christian bible.
Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by TheNextDaVinci 8 months ago
Elaborate, in the Debate please
Posted by Peepette 8 months ago
Lucifer was nessecary to have a juxtaposition between good and bad. Without him, there would not be a definition of either.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Ozzyhead 7 months ago
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: No source. If con did their research and could word things better, he would have had a chance. But he did very little talking. No sources from either side.
Vote Placed by U.n 7 months ago
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: I see Con as asking many questions (started to wonder if he wasn't simply tricking Pro into doing his school homework) and I even saw Con conceding in the 4th round that Pro has provided multiple solid points with supported reasonings. Due to the lack of a true rebuttal from Con, Pro won my vote in the 2nd round where he explained that it's impossible to know why God created Lucifer, Lucifer is akin to a fallen angel, and that despite Lucifer's assumed influence man is responsible for his own actions.