The Instigator
backwardseden
Pro (for)
The Contender
chompybeat
Con (against)

Why would anyone "want" to believe in jesus?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/28/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 week ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 330 times Debate No: 106215
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (20)
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backwardseden

Pro

You MUST give all of your possessions away and hate all of your closest family members in order to be a disciple of jesus. Plus the fact he was a liar who lied about his supposed god.

https://www.youtube.com... - Why does every intelligent christian disobey jesus?
Why would anyone "want" to believe in jesus? You must give up your families, possessions and love your enemies. All three of those are absolutely insane. No person in their right mind would ever be stupid enough to do such absurd things. Would you give up your family, you mother, your father, your sister, your brother for an untested, an undemonstrated jesus character in which you cannot even prove exists? Who in their right mind would do such horrific, illogical, completely bonkers ideals? Are you that empty inside that seeking something else to give you meaning and purpose that you cannot grasp from within your own self worth that you have to seek it from elsewhere? And then ask yourself why would you dump your family, your possessions and love your enemies (in which case no one should ---ever--- do without having your guard up to reach astronomically high levels) to worship a character from 2,000 years ago of a printed book in which there’s no proof he ever existed?

jesus was a liar AND he worked on the sabbath...
John 5: 16-18 "16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. 17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. 18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."
Wow. 2 things. 1. Well first of all the verses prove that jesus was NOT the savior, but a monetized leech homebody humanoid who worked on the sabbath and thus by HIS god's laws should have rightly been executed. This jesus character did not have the powers to change HIS god's laws. Nor did HIS god grant him any favoritism to change HIS god's laws so that he could. 2. jesus is saying in verse 17 that his god is working on the sabbath. So verse 17 shows that jesus flat out lied about his god. After all there’s no way in hell (pun deliberately intended) that HIS superior and commander in snookums chief would EVER work on the sabbath for any reason. Does---ANYBODY---reading---this actually believe that god is actually going to work on the sabbath for ANY reason? If so then the entire rules and laws of god are false and the OT is worthless. So is god. Ehhhtttt. Bzzzztttt. WRONG!!! Sorry. Its jesus that is wrong and false as proven right here in those three little verses and thus christianity is also false because jesus is false.

Giving up your family…
Matthew 10: 35-37 “For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”

Luke 12: 51-53 “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.”Luke 14:26 “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”

Matthew 19: 28-29 “28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.” (now who would ever want to receive “everlasting life”, whatever that means, in a life with jesus if it means giving up EVERYTHING?)

Luke 9: 23-25 “And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?” (Yeah we should all deny who we are, which means that we give up purpose and self worth and pride in life for this piece of garbage in print only as there’s 0% proof this jesus character even exists)
What a true schmuck and imbecile this in print character jesus fellow was and a true egotist to honestly expect that anyone would be shortsighted enough to give up their families and who we are as individuals for him. Nobody for any reason should ---ever--- give up their families for something that is unproved, untested and NOT demonstrated.

Giving up your possessions...
Matthew 6:19 “Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:”

Luke 14:33 “So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.”

Matthew 6:24 “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.” (Well yeah I can serve two masters or even three or more, or who says I have to serve ANY MASTERS at all?)

Matthew 19: 21-24 “21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.”
Well I’m not going to give up the internet, and neither are you, otherwise you would not be reading this, so you are not a true christian by any means to give up all of your possessions for this wannabe nothing no good bratty self righteous egotist jesus that truly nobody wants in their lives. If they did, then why oh why wouldn’t you follow YOUR fricken bible and DO WHAT IT SAYS AND give up all of your possessions including your cars, your house, your jewelry, your phone’s, your food, your computer's, ev-er-yt-hi-ng!!! Nah. You are completely and totally addicted to you possessions AND you have absolutely no intention whatsoever in giving them up to follow this jesus in print character into the desert.

Love your enemies...
Luke 6: 27 - 28 “But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.”

Luke 6: 35 “But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.”

Matthew 5:43-44 “Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;”
Indeed should we love our enemies? If so then why does this country have enough firepower to blow up the world probably a good 4 or 5 times over? And the Trump administration (the worst president of all time who claims he is a christian along with his sidekick Mike Pence a true piece of outhouse manure dung pile of brown stuff who also claims himself to be a christian and also wants to strengthen the military) would easily blow up anybody that crosses their lines. So who REALLY loves their enemies?Do we let our guard down for anyone in our lives who has deeply hurt us/ become our enemies/ to set ourselves up to be subjugated again by the same person to dig in deeper and ruin our lives further? Does kindness and loving an enemy really help? Well who knows. Every situation is different. Two things. 1. Keep your guard up when this happens. 2. It is most certainly not a christian ideal and happens to everybody.

RULES:
Prove that this printed jesus character according to the bible is somehow worthy of being considered as the messiah.





Dsjpk5 will not be able to vote in the voting process.
chompybeat

Con

Hello.
1. The New Testament does not teach you must abandon your family and possessions. However, it teaches that we are to abandon our idols to put the Christ first as Lord over our life. If our family hates us for accepting Christ, so be it. If one determines to kill us because of our faith in Christ, let it be. But what does this demonstrate? Why would that ever happen? And it ultimately boils down to the answer of this question: Why would we want to believe in Jesus?

The answer: In God alone, through Christ Jesus, we find ultimate satisfaction, everlasting joy, and supreme happiness in this life and the next, no matter the circumstances. And, as John Piper says, "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him".

Johnathan Edwards said, "The enjoyment of God is the only happiness with which our souls can be satisfied". In the Christian worldview, humans were created by their Designer to hunger and crave the divine; that is, we have a God-shaped mold on our hearts. And naturally, we attempt to fill this mold - but not with our Creator. On the contrary, we attempt to fill our hearts with such things as money, or sex, or fame, or anything this world has to offer. But if we attempt to fulfill our purpose in life with such things, we are chasing the wind. The dissatisfaction ultimately continues, and at best, these worldly pleasures only give us temporary satisfaction. Even family and friends cannot offer ultimate satisfaction and happiness - if we attempt to find it in mere humans or anything humans have made for us, we are, as said, chasing the wind.

Edwards also said, "the most pleasant accommodations . . . fathers and mothers, husbands, wives, or children, or the company of earthly friends, are but shadows; but God is the substance. These are but scattered beams, but God is the Sun".

And so, humans have exchanged the truth of the sun (God) for lies (barren, cold planets). Now, these planets, when orbiting the sun are glorious and can make us happy; that is, if we have God at the center of our heart, we can be happy, but if we try to put replace God with one of his gifts (e.g. sex or money or family) then we leave empty handed.

And this is the ultimate message of Scripture - that we find happiness when we are in a relationship with our Maker. This was how it was in the beginning in the Edenic garden, when Adam and Eve were happily content with their Creator, and now we crave God in our sinful nature since the fall of man. And as the prophet Jeremiah says to Israel, we have all attempted to put our water in broken cisterns (e.g. family, sex, money, etc.) when God is the cistern with no holes. Our heart has a thousand thirsts, and only Christ can satisfy them all. For the Christ said to the woman at the well, "Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, "Give me a drink", you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water. . . whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life"" (John 4: 10, 14). Christ is the living water, and when we drink from him, thirst is no more. The primary reason Christ came to die to save us from our sins and be resurrected to life so we could receive the free gift of God (salvation and forgiveness from God) was not so we could go to heaven, but so we could be with God, in whom we find joy. Indeed, when the angel proclaimed to the shepherds that the birth of our Lord was "good news of great joy", this was an understatement.
And when we put our faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit changes our hearts, so that we show the love of God to others (including our enemies), and our top priority is to glorify God,
We are all "empty inside" and will remain to be so if we try to find eternal delight in this world. And in your worldview, I find it odd that you proclaim we have "self worth" and "meaning" and "purpose". If there is no God, we are cosmic accidents that will cease to exist, so ultimately it does not matter what happens to us, as we are chemical reactions that will soon remember nothing ("good" nor "bad").

Now, the debate over whether Christ existed is a tangent, but to claim he is non-existent would be very strange as generally all historians not only accept his existence, but that he was judged by Pontius Pilate, crucified on a Roman cross, and claims of an empty tomb arose not long afterwards by his followers.

1. Christ was "Lord over the Sabbath" (also a claim of deity). It was not often humans performed miracles; something that only originated from the Divine. Christ, in performing miracles, shown he was God. Yes, he was making himself equal to God as declaring he had authority over the Sabbath due to the fact that he was the author of the Sabbath. This is foolishness on the Pharisees" part,, and the inclusion of the Pharisees" argument in Saint John"s gospel shown the nitpicking they performed because of their hatred for Christ. God the Father did not cease his acts of compassion on the Sabbath nor did God the Son. Miracles were not forbidden (nor were they even expected of a mere man - which Christ, the God-man, was not). Christ brought the new covenant, and he "hinted" at this Sabbath law ceasing its binding effect; he proclaimed since he was equal to God (as he is God the Son) he must work on the Sabbath like his Father. Christ speaks on this in John 7: ""Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath [which was legal]. If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man"s whole body well? Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment" (John 7:22-24). Christ calls inconsistencies with the logic of his accusers. There were a number of activities permitted on the Sabbath, including circumcision (which of course was painful). He compares this with divine healing, implying that God healing a man is all the more appropriately permitted on the Sabbath. For Christ also addresses the Sabbath was made for man, not vice versa - his accusers seemed to forget this, as they nit picked the silliest things simply so they could execute the Christ.
Yes, God works on the Sabbath. What makes you think he does not? God is the transcendent Creator, Sustainer, and Provider of the universe; he is "working" every millisecond. I"m curious why you would think God cannot work on Saturday. Christ said his Father (God) never ceases to work for he has no need for rest (God rested on the seventh day of creation, but this does not mean this omnipotent Being was weary, rather the author of Genesis"s purpose was to demonstrate that since their Creator made the universe in six days and ceased to create one day, they were to do the same), the Son (Christ, who is one in essence with the Father) always works as well. And your argument is quite fallacious (slippery slope) as you seem to imply if God "works" on the Sabbath, then the Mosaic law given to Israel was invalid; however, this is not so, as the law was given to Israel - not God. (For example, God also did not have to make animal sacrifices.)

2. Christ came to bring peace to the heart and peace with God (Matthew 11:29, Romans 5). However, in following the Messiah, divisions naturally happen. Christ recognized this, but promised that we can rejoice even in persecution (Matthew 5); for those whom have put their faith in him and his saving work have found the supreme treasure of the universe - I.e, God. I may have to go into this more next round, for I am running out of room. . .
But Christ is asserting the blessings of salvation and eternal life are far more exceeding than anything one might lose in obtaining salvation.
If Christ is right, he is not prideful of himself. On the contrary, for God to love us, he must exalt himself. For us to love others, we must exalt God. For God would not be loving if he offered something other than himself, for he is infinitely greater than anything this world has to offer. And so, Christ offers us this free gift of God - himself - through his blood. For Christ demonstrates his love clearly by laying down his life for those who hate him.

3.If God is God, nothing must be equal to him, nor must we put anything above him (e.g. money). You do seem to interpret Christ"s point. He is not claiming we should on purpose, burn everything we have. But, if we must abandon all for the sake of Christ (even our life - demonstrating Christ is more beautiful than life itself) then so be it. As for the rich man, Christ knew money was his master and god. And so, he told him specifically to leave it behind for the one true God - which he showed his preference of money compared to God, by refusing God and keeping his riches.

4. We are to show love to everyone as a Christian - this is a mark of the Christian as we are commanded not look down on any image-bearer of the Creator. Now, we can protect ourself. And the New Testament clearly addresses that the wicked must often be put to death (Rom. 13), but we must lead all to Christ, as we are not to take pleasure in the death of the wicked. Yes, often we must defend ourselves and capital punishment must be given, but this is to deliver justice. Christ commands his followers to be peacemakers (Mat. 5). He doesn"t say wipe out and scorn anyone who hates us.

And in conclusion, I believe God offers this free gift of salvation to you, and if you put your faith in Christ and his death and resurrection to save you from your sins, you will be forgiven and be satisfied in God now and forever - no matter the circumstances.
I look forward to your arguments.

Brayden
Debate Round No. 1
backwardseden

Pro

"1. The New Testament does not teach you must abandon your family and possessions." You are correct. It doesn"t, YOUR jesus does. BIG DIFFERENCE. "However, it teaches that we are to abandon our idols to put the Christ first"" Where does it show that? Regardless, its an OT ideal considered by YOUR god to be the most evil thing there is. If you believe in "idols", and who on earth knows what that means because YOUR god not once presented himself. So indeed you have no proof whatsoever that this god of yours even exists. So how does anyone worship toxic waste spilled air, aka a god who truly hated children and admitted in YOUR bible to having evil, anger, wrath, vengeance, rage, fury, jealousy. Jealousy? What from a supreme deity? Jealousy is nothing more than anger as disguised fear. Even worse is this supposed god of yours passed down those emotions so man could in turn learn to hate with all the baggage that comes along with it that these emotions clearly are that this god drags around with him. Hey god, dump those emotions and how"s about thinking about peace, kindness, love, caring for each other, harmony etc? Nah. So don"t talk to me or anyone that YOUR god is "good" when he is most certainly not anything like it. Not only that since this god of YOURS has these emotions it clearly means that he is imperfect. Now who in their right stale mind would ---ever--- want to bow down to an inferior supreme deity bile god such as the one you picked from your closet because what else could it be?
Strange isn"t it that in comparison that the Inca, many of the native American Indian tribes until your white man greasy sweaty racist pig christian wiped them out, the aborigines, Hindu"s, Gaia Mother Earth, Buddhists etc etc etc they do not practice nor preach nor go to war over their religions, not anywhere close to the evils nor hate that the christians do. Now why is that?

Then you say "If our family hates us for accepting Christ, so be it." Well that"s not what your christ says. But you the typical christian tries to invert things to make it suit you, and not adhere AT ALL, naturally to the script of YOUR bible. I"m going to ignore the rest of paragraph 1 because it has nothing to do with the debate. YOUR god ordered the Israelites to kill for him, when he could have done it himself in the OT but naturally backed off from it in the NT so by his thinking would not be a loser contradictory hypocrite. Um nope, that"s not how things work god because man has an intelligence above you.

Wow, since you believe in psychic mediums, I"ve thrown away all of Jonathan Edwards goop and didn"t even look at it. Its worthless gullibility at its finest, just like your christ and god.

Since you are also a liar and I can see right through you, I should also throw your entire debate out as I have in the past. Sheesh people like you REALLY p**s me off. You come on in here and you pretend you know everything about everything, but in turn you know nothing about everything. And yet you pretend that you do. So what do you do instead is you invent excuses and or flat out lie in order to save your sunken ship from further sinking. So here"s what I"m going to do" its simple math really, 3 strikes of invented excuses/ gullibility without tangible evidence to prove your case, and this debate will be over. Got it?
One more thing" DO NOT even think that you can lecture me on your god, religion and bible. K? Because I 100% guarantee you that I will ---always--- know a lot more about them than you ---ever--- will.

So let"s get rolling"
"And this is the ultimate message of Scripture - that we find happiness when we are in a relationship with our Maker." Well um no. Who is this "we" stuff? Um no its "you" and only you. You shouldn"t speak for others who get different messages such as nearly 100% of all christians believe its "love thy neighbor" which is a bunch of hogwash also especially if they spit on you.

Then you get into Adam and Eve and all credibility is thrown to the winds with a talking snake. Bye with that one. STRIKE 1.

I"m also not going to take your word at anything. If you cannot provide EXACT verses and what they say, I"m just going to swoop over them like rotten eggs. In other words, there"s a 0% chance I"m going to take your word at anything even if I knew you were correct I would still require the verses.

(John 4: 10, 14). So? That is still not answering any question posed. And NO ONE should be so selfish to hate their families tio give up EVERYTHING for an unproved, untested, undemonstrated christ. That only leads to gullibility. Nor can you describe nor convey what this "eternal life" is and or means. And who would want it to be with a god and jesus that hates you? Especially with your throated sins? See we as atheists have no sins. We don"t believe in the characterizations of sinning. But then again, neither does your bible. Its one big massive super duper contradiction.
Does every man sin? Yes. There is no man who does not sin (I Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and I John 1:810) No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, because they are the children of God. Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God.. (I John 5:1). We should be called children of God; and so we are (I John 3: 1). He who loves is born of God (I John 4:7). No one born of God commits sin; for Gods nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God (I John 3:9). But, then again, Yes! If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (I John 1:8)

Matt Dillahunty "What is sin and why should I care about it? I understand why I should live an ethical life and treating people in certain ways, we have secular foundations for moral systems. But sin from the christian perspective is a crime against god or god"s nature itself - right? If god makes the rules and you violate it, that"s a sin. Well what if god makes a rule that you should kill your child, does that make it good? Caller " Yeah that"s where I do things that are not aligned in what the bible says." Matt "Yeah. But are they good things? Do you have good reasons to have that the things you are doing are not immoral? Like do you have an example? Like don"t confess to a crime or anything. For example the bible is opposed to homosexuality. Do you think there"s something immoral about those who are homosexuals?" Caller "Uh there"s none that I can think of." Matt "Yeah me neither. And so if the bible"s opposed to it add the bible is the word of god, and the Koran is opposed to it as well and the Koran is supposed to be the word of god as well, and there are two holy books and let them argue over who god is and what god thinks and until they can come up with a sound secular justification for homosexualiy being immoral then I don"t need to pay their views any money because its just an opinion at that point."

"Yes, God works on the Sabbath. What makes you think he does not?" Strike 2. See that"s why I HATE debating with those that ultimately DO NOT know ANY FRICKEN THING at all ABOUT THEIR GOD, BIBLE AND RELIGION.
Exodus 35:2 "2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death."

Genesis 2: 1-3 "1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy."
So next time ypou blunder into something that you clearly know nothing about rather than strangling yourself to death with a fig tree, why don"t you have the decency to simply look it up first? I mean this is something that is first grade god stuff printed in your bible that offers you no outs.

"God is the transcendent Creator, Sustainer, and Provider of the universe; he is "working" every millisecond." Well yeah according to what YOU think and believe your god most certainly should be, but not according to what he states.
Oh and another thing, not everybody, which includes me who happens to be intelligent and educated and smart does not believe in YOUR god. After all he rests on the sabbath and does no work on it which is such a joke unto itself right there. You are as truly stupid and as ignorant as they come.

"I"m curious why you would think God cannot work on Saturday." Just mentioned. "Christ said his Father (God) never ceases to work for he has no need for rest. Yep and he LIED about it which means right off the bat he"s NOT your savior. "(God rested on the seventh day of creation, but this does not mean this omnipotent Being was weary," Oh absolutely it does. Rest "1. the refreshing quiet or repose of sleep: a good night's rest. 2. refreshing ease or inactivity after exertion o labor: to allow an hour for rest. 3. relief or freedom, especially from anything that wearies, troubles, or disturbs." Sheesh are you stupid and there"s pretty close to absolutely 0% of the population on planet earth that would agree with your clear misinterpretation of "rather the author of Genesis"s purpose was to demonstrate that since their Creator made the universe in six days and ceased to create one day, they were to do the same)," So that"s a point blank obvious strike 3. I"ve been doing this for 42+ years and have talked with about 25,000 never heard such loony tunes in my entire life. Its right up there with someone actually believing that one of the 10 commandments is overeating and obesity.

I"m ending this debate with you since you had to invent excuses rather than coming up with actual evidence of truth to support your case in which you clearly didn"t. All you did was make it completely laughable. Bye.
chompybeat

Con

Hello, sir.
1. I will respond with biblical evidence for my assertions as opposed to your baseless assertions:
No, it is not a big difference. The Christ we primarily know from history is found in the New Testament; so by New Testament, I am referring more specifically to the Gospels, where his teachings are found. The New Testament clearly teaches God should be first - anything equal to or above him is an idol, and idolatry is a sin. It is not just found In the OT. 'But as for the. . . idolaters. . . their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death' (Rev. 21:8). God has revealed himself generally through creation (Rom. 1), and specially through Scripture. As for proof of God, that is technically impossible, and so we must look at the evidence, which it is there, contrary to your assertions. Evidence for God includes immaterial laws of logic, nature, mathematics, etc., uniformity in nature, fine-tuned universe, biogenesis, complexity of life, information in DNA, origin of DNA, RNA, proteins, etc., etc.. Now, this is not a debate over the existence of God, but I will happily debate you on this topic, if you desire.
2. I am astonished at how you argue for absolutely nothing, but almost the entirety of you 'debating' is ranting ad hominem logical fallacies. But every now in then, you'll throw in an assertion (like a needle in a haystack) but let us take a look at them: You claim I 'don't know my book' which is fallacious. Just because I do not agree with you does not mean I don't know it; that's why I am debating you. Did you expect for me to agree? As for hating children, and all the other nonsense you spew out, I'll gladly respond to them once you use biblical evidence so I know what specific passages you are referring to. Jealousy is not always sinful. For example, if a man flirt's with another man's wife, the husband has every right to be jealous - that is his wife, and his alone. The Creator is the only being is deserves worship and is jealous and angry when one refuses to submit to his law, and worship an idol/false god. Jealousy would be a sin if a man was jealous that another man's wife was more attractive than his wife - this, of course, is not right; he has no right whatsoever to be jealous over something like this. As for fear, this is just you asserting again; if we read the Bible cover to cover, we have no reason to believe God ever is fearful, for he is the omniscient being who will deliver perfect justice, and does not hesitate to.
3. God is love and peace and kindness (1 Jn. 4:18, Rom. 5:8, 6:23, Jn. 3:16). But this does not negate his justice. God hates evil, and so will rightly judge it. What surprising claims you are making, as you are an atheist, you believe morality is subjective. 'Good' is literally an opinion in your worldview (i.e., up to the subject [the human] rather than the object]). And since morality is opinion in your worldview, good and evil do not actually exist; they are just beliefs we have came up with, as time has progressed (as we are mere chemical reactions that will ultimately cease to exist - remembering nothing).
4. Your not arguing against Christianity; if you want to argue against the religion, you must argue against the founder (I.e, the Christ), not his followers. As for what I believe, the Bible clearly teaches we will have a changed heart and show love to others if we are truly saved (Gal. 5); if we do not change, we were never saved in the first place. Persecuting is *not* what Christ taught. Christ said Christians should be the sheep - the ones being persecuted. We are not to take down all of the wolves (Matt. 5). So no, this is not what Christianity teaches; regardless if someone wants it to or not.
5. As for contradictions, I don't see how that would be a problem in your worldview, since you fail to account for the immaterial law of non-contradiction in a materialistic worldview. Christ addresses to the Pharisees we are to honor our father and mother (and therefore, respect and love them) in Matt. 15. Christ speaks in hyperboles and parables *a lot* - almost all of his teachings. The reason I say this is because the Christian Scriptures (all of the OT and NT) teaches us to love our relatives. So no, I believe it is you who wants Christ to say certain things, because you obviously hate him.
P1 is related to the debate: it answers the question why I believe in Christ. You are the one, sir, that is going on tangents about God's existence and so forth.
6. What in heaven's name are you on about now? Where in round one did I say I believed in psychic mediums? Another fallacious argument (if you choose to respond to why you made this baseless assertion, we will figure out what logical fallacy you committed - but for fun, I will guess the slippery slope fallacy).
7. 'since you are a liar' - ad hominem / baseless assertion.
8. I am not pretending I know everything. My friends (you kind spectators), observe his hypocrisy; I have not once proclaimed I know all, but he continues to say, 'DO NOT even think you can lecture me. . . K? Because I [know] I will always know a lot more than you ever will'. . I am not God, kind sir, I am not omniscient, and refuse to pretend to be so. But you do not know everything either, yes?
9. 'So let's get rolling' - oh that was an introduction? Oh friends, we are in for a treat; the show has just begun. In the Christian worldview, it is my position that people want to believe in Christ because in God alone we find happiness and bring him the glory. Very simple. This is my position - don't expect me to agree with you; it is like you were surprised I said something you don't believe.
10. I don't know why I even bother addressing this, but I do desire to respectfully correct you: the serpent could speak due to Satan (revelation and other parts of Scripture address Satan as the 'ancient serpent' in the ancient garden).
11. Sir, I have been using verses and have responded to yours with them in context. You are the only one, as far as I can see, making baseless assertions throughout the first two rounds.
12. No one will dwell for eternity with a God who hates them. Revelation addresses that God will dwell with his people and be their God; he will wipe all tears away and be our heavenly Father. Agreed. No one should hate their families, friends, etc. rather, we should love Christ above all, and if we *have* to abandon all for Christ, so be it. What sins? All our sins are removed from us when Christ imputes his righteousness on us, making us righteous in the eyes of our holy God (Rom 5, 8). The Bible teaches the existence of sins (Rom. 3). Yes, atheists do not believe in sin a naturalistic worldview - you are just stating what you believe which is fine, but you must understand the Christian believes all have sinned, regardless if they want to believe it (Rom. 3:23). The Christian believes in objective moral values, which all have broke; the atheist does not believe good/evil actually exists - they are mere opinions in philosophical naturalism.
13. Wonderful! You are using the Bible in context. Those who accept Christ are children of God (Jn. 1). But Christians do sin, as Saint Paul addresses in Rom. 7. However, we are no longer slaves to sin (Rom. 6). So if a 'Christian' lives a sinful, unrepentant lifestyle, he is not of Christ.
14. God is the objective standard of morals, as he is eternal and transcendent. I am curious as to what your foundation is; why is murder objectively wrong in your worldview? You speak as though murder is wrong for fact, which if there is no God, objective moral values do not exist; therefore, morality would be opinion.
15. Exodus 35:2 says Israelites are to observe the Sabbath; it does not say God takes a Sabbath.
16. Genesis 2 says God rested on the seventh day, which indicated that this would forever be a holy day; it does not imply God has to forever stop working on every seventh day, as God is never weary.
Exodus 20:8 says to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy; so you have not proved anything. Nothing you mentioned says God has to rest on every Saturday.
17. You are forcing your ideas on the Bible. It says he rested. period. it does not say he needed to. He chose to. It's strange how you quote from an English dictionary; the OT was written in Hebrew. The Hebrew work used in Gen. 2 is 'shabat' which means to 'cease, or stop'.
Of course, I cannot force you to continue; but if you believe I am 100% wrong, as you claimed, then show me why in Round 3 with a counter-rebuttal, my friend.

One who sincerely cares for you,
Brayden
Debate Round No. 2
backwardseden

Pro

Thankfully I am/ atheists are intelligent enough and educated enough, unlike you who is clearly not intelligent nor educated at all as you live in your little blank black box of a book and are totally 100% incapable of venturing beyond it, whereas atheists are and do, to simply glance at the bottom few sentences and go from there. REPEATING since you are 100% totally incapable of interpreting correctly and absolutely no one on this planet of merit will agree with you...

- Top 10 reasons why the bible is repulsive
"Exodus 35:2 says Israelites are to observe the Sabbath; it does not say God takes a Sabbath." WRONG. See? That's why you have no genuine friends or loved ones with your smug pale observations of the completely inadequate...
Exodus 35:2 "2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death." Indeed god-takes-ALL-sabbaths!!!!!! What on earth does "a sabbath of rest to the Lord:" mean to a squandering infidel like you who is clearly incapable of interpreting correctly?
Its also repeated in Exodus 31:15 "Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
So according to you if your god works on the sabbath then he is required by his laws to be put to death. AND he's a contradictory hypocrite to boot. According to you its perfectly OK for YOUR totally insane god to work, but not others as they will-be-put-to-death. That's being a contradictory hypocrite. But we already knew that. AND THAT'S WHAT YOU WORSHIP. Great going you. Keep up the good work.

Genesis 2: 1-3 "1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Now what do the words "sanctified it" mean to you, you total piece of s--t for having to invent excuses and flat out lying for YOUR god to keep his head above the noose, which didn't work for inventing such a horrific law to kill those that work on the sabbath thus YOUR jesus should have been rightly executed according to this law?
Why don't we, that being you and I, look up the word for "sanctify" 1. to make holy; set apart as sacred; consecrate. 2. to purify or free from sin: Sanctify your hearts. 3. to impart religious sanction to; render legitimate or binding: to sanctify a vow. 4. to entitle to reverence or respect. 5. to make productive of or conducive to spiritual blessing. So the sabbath/ seventh day was NOT a one time plaything. It was something that was set into motion from YOUR god since the beginning of time/ creation according to YOUR mythology. DUH. Now what part of that don't you understand?

Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." Is one of the 10 commandments which is why I previously listed it. Oh but wait by gum, you didn't know that. AND whoever works on the sabbath is to be executed. So if YOUR god works on the sabbath, then by YOUR god's laws, IF he follows his procedures, the he is to be executed. gain what part of that don't your understand?

Lastly you don't care about me. You only care about yourself and your precious mythical god and jesus in which you cannot prove even exists. And to boot, in YOUR bible it flatly states for you to kill me since I do not believe. Deuteronomy 13: 9-10 "But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. "

and Deuteronomy 17: 2-5 basically states the same thing "If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the Lord thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the Lord thy God, in transgressing his covenant, 3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die."
So are you going to come on down here with all of YOUR god's laws and orders and kill me as per what he says? Why? Why not? And if not then you disobey YOUR god. Wow imagine that. Yeah YOUR god is completely insane to dream up such racist religious laws when all he had to do was trump up peace, harmony, love, care for each other etc etc etc. Nah. This god of YOURS chose evil, anger, wrath, vengeance, rage, fury, jealousy all in which he's freely admitted to and was clearly shown in RD1 in which you have 0 outs.

Since, once again, your lack-there-of abilities to interpret correctly, which is a point blank obvious misinterpretation ALL THE FRICKEN WAY, and since you obviously don't know what YOUR bible says AT ALL, and since you cannot take it at its word for any reason whatsoever... we-are-done. This time, this is a promise and I always keep my promises.
chompybeat

Con

Greetings again, my friend.
1. As for venturing, atheists cannot go to far: they fail to account for the laws of logic, laws of nature, and the uniformity of the universe. They fail to account for the origin of space/time. They fail to account for the fine-tuning of the universe. They fail to account for the origin of life. They fail to account for the remarkable complexity of life. They fail to account for objective moral values (yet believe in them - at least you do, obviously, as you appear to assert some things are 'evil'). And etc. Do they offer explanations? They most certainly do! But they go beyond empirical science and depend on pure speculation (e.g., the multiverse hypothesis, abiogenesis, etc.).
My friends (if I have any - this gentleman asserts I do not - tis a shame), let us go through this genius's top ten reasons for why Scripture is repulsive:
1. Your first assertions proves mine: Like I addressed, I used biblical evidence and analysis to support my assertions. You don't. Observe spectators, for why he says I am wrong: 'WRONG. See? That's why you have no friends or loved ones [insert 10 year old insults here]. . .' According to this kind sir, I am wrong because he says so. Observe he does not use 'my own book' to refute my beliefs. Rather, he makes baseless assertions and ad hominem and slippery slope logical fallacies. It says they are to take a Sabbath to the Lord - I don't even understand what there is to argue about; it does not say the Lord takes a Sabbath every week. They were to observe a Sabbath to the Lord, remembering his creative work and divine rest on the first Sabbath. Period. You then continue about how they were to be put to death if they worked on it. This was due to the fact that the Creator of reality himself told them to rest on it to keep it holy and remember their Creator, who made all things. 2. It was also a sign of his covenant with Israel.
2. Sanctify? Well my friend, it means to keep holy, as you seemed to kindly address. You seemed to miss my *whole* point. Yes, the Sabbath continued. I never said it stopped. But you kept on about how even God had to observe it every single we along with his people. On the contrary, the Israelites observed it every week to remember what God *did*. (See Ex. 35:2). Exodus 20:11 says he rested on the seventh day. It doesn't say he 'rests'. Like I said, it uses the Hebrew word (the OT was written primarily in Hebrew) 'shabat' - 'to cease, or stop'.
Concerning the Christ, in Christian 'mythology (or so you say - it is indeed, the 'true myth' as JRR Tolkien put it)', Christ is the God-man, that is, he is God the Son in the flesh, truly God and truly human. And so, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, continue his work in his creation. For the universe was brought into existence by the word of God, and kept in existence by the Almighty. 2. There is *nothing* that says someone who performs a miracle (much less a miracle from God) must be executed. This is because they did not expect this to even by normal; normal men cannot perform miracles. But Christ did. He was no ordinary man, but 'Lord of the Sabbath' - a claim of divinity, as he is suggesting he is the Author of the Sabbath day. 3. In the new covenant, we are no longer bound to the Sabbath law. For our Lord's blood fulfilled the divinely-given law.
And finally to conclude, I most definitely do care about you. I've prayed specifically for you over the days for God to lead you to be my brother in Christ, and for the Spirit of God to open your eyes to the beauty of Christ - that is, that you would accept the Christ as Lord by putting your faith in him and his saving work to save you from your sins (his death and resurrection makes forgiveness possible). Believe on him. For he died and was rose again for you. And so, you can find supreme happiness and ultimate satisfaction in God and bring glory to him through your enjoyment of him now and forever - fulfilling your Creator-given purpose. For God is most glorified in you when you are most satisfied in him, in all circumstances, as Piper says.
Back to Scripture: no, it was saying anyone who denied God in Israel was to be executed, due to the fact that he literally revealed himself to him; they had absolutely no excuse for rejecting him, when he literally saved Israel from the hand of Pharaoh in Egypt.
I pray to obey my God, in respectfully offering you to accept the gospel of Christ Jesus. You and I are a sinner. We deserve damnation. But we can have God as our all-satisfying Treasure now and for eternity through Christ - putting our faith in his death and resurrection to save us from our sins, and confessing him to be Lord over our life.
God's justice was perfect throughout Scripture, and being omniscient, the Judge will judge justly on the last day. The only examples you provided was the Sabbath in this debate. God is angry with us. And instead of delivering the judgment we deserve, offers salvation through his Son, Christ Jesus - the Creator came to be slain by his rebels.
Okay, friend. If you desire for the debate to end it shall. But feel free to debate me on any topic anytime. (I suggested God's existence in one of our previous rounds.)
One who has you continually in thought,
Brayden
Debate Round No. 3
backwardseden

Pro

Sorry. Didn't read it. There's absolutely nothing you can possibly say, nothing, to justify your positioning that ---anybody--- who is intelligent or has an edumacation above that above absolute 0 will ---ever--- agree with you. I also as told unto your drooping brain, I do not talk with those that deliberately go out of their ways to lie. Since you did, you obviously present false information. Bye.
chompybeat

Con

That"s okay, my friend.
Yes, I understand - there is no one better than you; for losing debates is impossible for this gentleman.
But being serious: I reject your baseless assertions; I have not lied, but have proved my points with text from the sacred Scriptures. You on the other hand, disagree, and without any evidence, claim I"m lying. And so, I must conclude you get easily confused (maybe not all the time - that would be a slippery slope fallacy, which you commit occasionally), or you exaggerate - I,e., you yourself lie.
But thank you, sir, for the discussion. It"s been a pleasure, I suppose.
God bless you and your family"s new year,
Brayden
Debate Round No. 4
This round has not been posted yet.
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Debate Round No. 5
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by backwardseden 2 weeks ago
backwardseden
@chompybeat - didn't read it.
Posted by chompybeat 2 weeks ago
chompybeat
The 'idiot' is here to speak again!
As for my age, I shall not say (because you obviously use that as a fallacious genetic fallacy / slippery slope, invalid argument). But I do feel like I am debating a 15-year-old!
Allow me to correct on of your baseless assertions, if you don't mind: '[you have] no where to go and [are] stacked up against the wall with a slap to the face with [fallacies] from my [misinterpretation of Scripture, which I refused to defend in round 3]. It is not my problem [continued nonsense]. . .'
'Don't post unless you have something intelligent to say'. Intelligent is a relative word.
Thank you for the interesting debate. And I thank you for taking the time to respond. I'm open to speak to you anytime.
Yes, happy new year to you and your family.
your flyboy,
Brayden
Posted by backwardseden 2 weeks ago
backwardseden
@chompybeat - So the idiot compulsive liar speaks. Um no you only proved yourself to not know at all in what the flying pregnant fetus screw you were squawking about and you got caught redboned at it with your stupid dimwitted misinterpretations that NOBODY of merit will agree with. You also got caught at flat out miserably lying. And I with my utter goodness and kindness and caring for others, I do-not-deal-EVER-with-stoned-cold-liars. Yeah in your other profile you claim you are 15, in which you most assuredly are, or less, not 22 as you claim with this profile. It shows with your utter void in misery of lack of an edumacation as well as intelligence not only in the world around you but on YOUR god, bible and religion in which you flat out invented excuses for both debates and you fricken know it bub rather than presenting actual truthful evidence. But that is the line of the typical christian when he has nowhere to go and is stacked up against the wall with a slap to the face with truth taken directly from YOUR bible. Its not my problem that you cannot read YOUR bible for what it is and thus what you do is misinterpret as nearly 100% of christians do, that's yours. I'm so very glad I made your day better. Please don't post me back unless you have something intelligent to say. And you don't, you being a 15 year old, or less, flypaper flyboy who knows nothing about his sky captain fake god who cannot even prove exists. Your next post will be dutifully ignored. HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
Posted by chompybeat 2 weeks ago
chompybeat
Hello, gentlemen, @backwardseden @MRAJ @IIII
I"m interested who IIII is Referring to as fool; if me, I will respectfully correct you I took nothing out of context.
And if Dr. backwardsden is referring to me as the person he proved wrong, he most definitely is wrong. I had another debate with this kind sir - he forfeited.
I do hope you continue this one - you"re anger is at least entertaining, I suppose.
Brayden
Posted by backwardseden 2 weeks ago
backwardseden
@MRAAJ - Oh you'd have FUN with this one. He just posted and believes that HIS god exists and can prove it. And believes HIS jesus exists and can prove it. I already proved him wrong. It was fun. But am interested in what you have to say. http://www.debate.org... - though it looks like the side of the "atheists" if you'd like to call him that, has forfeited the round. But that doesn't mean you cannot leave some posts.
Posted by MRAAJ 2 weeks ago
MRAAJ
@IIIIIIIII, who are you calling a fool! When have you ever had an argument void of emotion?

Anyways, my arguments are much more than emotion, for more information ask @buildingapologetics on how well I'm able to balance logic and reason, along with emotional context.

Moreover I know how to manipulate text, so it's almost difficult for ignorant people like you to outsmart me, simply because I have a good amount of knowledge, experience, and understanding. I will get under your skin if your arguments are outright idiotic, so you can test me if you want. I will enjoy antagonising you though, so bring your A game. If you really believe in your arguments, challenge me. I challenged @followerofchrist1955 and @masterful, and I showed them up. For anyone else who thinks I've gone OTT, just know it's the best way to tackle ignorant immature people.
Posted by backwardseden 2 weeks ago
backwardseden
@ lIlIlIllIIIIllIlI - Uh huh. That's EXACTLY TO THE LETTER what I thought. A natural typical christian dimwitted dullard snot meat sow cabbage batbrain sitcom like you cannot back up in any way what he says. "dissecting verses from the Bible without the given context, and implying that Jesus intended for such an action." Well then you go right ahead AS PREVIOUS STATED and YOU PROVE IT WRONG right now you pathetic concrete parachuting garlic onion beer sniveling battery powered easy bake oven. Oh but wait, gosh golly gee gosh darned it all, you can't. Because if you could with all of your birdbrained power to prove me wrong and yourself correct you would have already done as such rather than being a shoe-in for the cow chirp meow mix laugh track sing-a-long with 0% of anything to back you up except for nonsense and absolute gullibility to be slammed and rightly so in---your---face.
Now its not my problem that you do not have any genuine friends or loved ones. That's yours. And wow does it show. What do I mean by genuine? Those that will go way way wayyyyyy out of their way to help you out in time of dire need and NEVER ask you a single question. For that I cannot even pity you. But you did it to yourself. You deserve it. You will die alone unless you change!!!!!!!
Posted by backwardseden 2 weeks ago
backwardseden
@MRAAJ - Greetings! Yeah I hope that this finds you well and in the very best of spirits. I always stand up to darling little cough drops open chest wounds like lIlIlIllIIIIllIlI but only to a point. Obviously that breaking point is when they go a bit too far and invent their own excuses and or flat out lie in order for them to seem like they make their cases stronger and they thus pretend that they do. People like that are so easy to spot. Hey it just happened with chompybeat in his RD 2 he tried to believe and mention that ""Yes, God works on the Sabbath. What makes you think he does not?" And I correctly state "See that"s why I HATE debating with those that ultimately DO NOT know ANY FRICKEN THING at all ABOUT THEIR GOD, BIBLE AND RELIGION."
Exodus 35:2 "2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death." then the ignoramus mentions laughably in which ABSOLUTELY NO ONE OF MERIT WILL EVER AGREE WITH... "God is the transcendent Creator, Sustainer, and Provider of the universe; he is "working" every millisecond." Well yeah according to what YOU think and believe he most certainly should be, but nope not according to what he states. And he continues with " "I"m curious why you would think God cannot work on Saturday." Just mentioned. "Christ said his Father (God) never ceases to work for he has no need for rest. Yep and he LIED about it which means right off the bat he"s NOT your savior. "(God rested on the seventh day of creation, but this does not mean this omnipotent Being was weary," Oh absolutely it does. Rest "1. the refreshing quiet or repose of sleep: a good night's rest. 2. refreshing ease or inactivity after exertion o labor: to allow an hour for rest. 3. relief or freedom, especially from anything that wearies, troubles, or disturbs." So what a truly outlandish CHRISTIAN EXCUSE and I ended the debate with him for obvious reasons.
Posted by lIlIlIllIIIIllIlI 2 weeks ago
lIlIlIllIIIIllIlI
This guy is the perfect example of ignorance, dissecting verses from the Bible without the given context, and implying that Jesus intended for such an action. Context, in any given text, is key towards understanding what the writer implied. It's funny really, how you can appeal to this fool's emotions instead of relying on any arguments, pathetic.
Posted by lIlIlIllIIIIllIlI 2 weeks ago
lIlIlIllIIIIllIlI
What are you talking about ... this is a debate, this isn't about appealing to other's emotions.
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