The Instigator
ghissong
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Robert_Santurri
Con (against)
Winning
28 Points

Will the Chicago Cubs win a World Series within the next 5 years?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/8/2008 Category: Sports
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,207 times Debate No: 5677
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (4)

 

ghissong

Pro

After a Cubs loss in the 2008 NLDS us fans are officially disappointed for a century. But 2008 also showed us the the Cubs are contenders and worthy of owning the NL Central. Within the next 5 years the Cubs will win a World Series, I dare someone to try to argue against it.
Robert_Santurri

Con

I would first like to thank my opponent for creating such a interesting debate. I wish that we will have a interesting debate for everyone to enjoy.

Consider your dare accepted my opponent.

First off, you made your case topic a question rather then a statement. So the simple answer is no but Debate is never that simple.

I am unsure whether you want me to make the actual case as you have the burden of proof to show why the Cubs will win in the next five years.

You gave me no definitions and really nothing to work with so I assume you want me to make the case.

My refutation: The Chicago Cubs will not win the World Series in the next five years.

Chicago Cubs – Baseball team playing at Wrigley Field in Chicago Illinois.
Will not win the World Series – Win the baseball ultimate championship.
Next five years – Within the next 1825 days.

First off, I like to say my opponent has already hoisted himself upon his own petard. The next five years would be the next FOUR baseball seasons as the World Series has not yet occurred.

My first contention: The American League is superior to the National League.

Assuming the cursed cubbies make it to the World Series, they will falter to whoever the AL team is. How can I back this up? Since 1989, the AL has won TWELVE World Series championships compared to the SIX by the NL. Since 1998, the AL has won SEVEN World Series championships compared to the THREE by the NL.
http://sports.espn.go.com...

When it also comes to the All-Star game between the AL and NL, which includes most of the best players in baseball voted in by the fans has been dominated by the AL. Since 1989, the AL has won SIXTEEN All-Star Games, tied one while the NL has won THREE All-Star games and tied one. Since 1997, the AL has won every single All-Star game not counting the tie that occurred in 2002.
http://sports.espn.go.com...

The AL also has more dominating pitchers in players like Dice-K, Jon Lester, Josh Beckett, Jonathan Papelbon, Cliff Lee, K-Rod, Chien-Ming Wang, Mike Mussina, Mariano Rivera, Ervin Santana, Joe Nathan, and Joe Saunders. This is also only a small number of great pitchers for the AL.

The AL also has more dominating hitters such as David Ortiz, A-Rod, Josh Hamilton, Dustin Pedroia, Justin Morneau, Carlos Quentin, Guerrero, Vladimir, Evan Longoria, and many others who I don't have the space to list here.
So therefore, even if the Cubbies were somehow able to get through the wild race that is the NL playoffs then it is highly unlikely that they would win the World Series considering teams like the Red Sox have swept the two NL teams since 2004 in their two World Series appearances.

This leads me to my second contention which is:

My Second Contention: The National League contains more superior teams then the Cubs.

How about we start off with the Dodgers who just SWEPT the Cubbies in three games in which they destroyed the Cubs best pitchers in all of them.

This makes Cubs Pitcher Ryan Dempster look like a fool:
http://sports.espn.go.com...

Games 1-3:
http://www.chicagotribune.com...
(Note how the Cubs even believe in the curse) Game 2 score was: 10-3 Dodgers and Game 3 was 3-1 Dodgers.

The Cubs hitters are very inconsistent as this playoff series proved and the older players aren't getting any younger.

The Cubs pitchers are very much injury prone:
Chad Fox, Jon Lieber, Rich Hill, Kerry Wood (who is famous for his health problems), also remember Mark Prior, Rich Harden, Carlos Zambrano have two things in common; they pitch for the cubs and were on the DL least once this season. Kerry Wood, Rich Harden, and Carlos Zambrano also happen to be some of the Cubs best pitchers.
http://sports.espn.go.com...

Another point is the Cubs best hitters aren't really that great hitter's number wise. Derrek Lee who makes $13.2 million a year hit .291, Kosuke Fukudome paid $7 million hit .257, Aramis Ramirez who hits .289 gets paid $15 million, Jim Edmonds who is paid $8 million a year hits .235, and Alfonso Soriano who hits .280 makes $14 million. (Note: those are all this year's salary and batting averages).

This is supposed to be the Cubbies best hitters, yet they don't hit that well compared to plenty of other teams. World Series teams have to be able to both hit and have good pitchers. You can't just have one, and the Cubs this year had neither in the playoffs.

I have to ask my opponent what will significantly change in the off-season that will change the Cubs fortunes. All the players will be just about a year older, and that not always good things especially when it comes to players like 38 year old Jim Edmonds. You also have to consider the majority of the Cubs hitters are over thirty. In fact, nine out of thirteen hitters for the Cubs are over the age of thirty. This is important considering statistics like this:

http://fairmodel.econ.yale.edu...
http://www.marginalrevolution.com...
http://dberri.wordpress.com...

Look at that list, notice a large number on that list are known steroid users or admitted to using steroids.

This leads me to my next contention:

My Third Contention: The Billy Goat Curse
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Now, one may not be a believer in curses but for the sake of debate let's say that such a curse exists. The evidence that there is such one is shown above.

Just recent bad luck for the Cubs: 2007 and 2008 NL Central winners but swept out in the first round by teams like the Diamondbacks in 2007 and the Dodgers in 2008.

Please note the following video above which goes into more depth about the curse, which makes a great case for its existence.

From 1908 to 2008, the Cubs have not won a World Series. In fact, they've rarely even gotten close. Pitcher after Pitcher (Carlos Z last year, Ryan D this year as I shown above) continues to predict that "this will be our year." However, it has not been there year and will continue not to be.

As a Boston Red Sox fan, I know a couple things about curses and this one is even bigger then the Red Sox one.

Now I do hope for Round #2 that my opponent will actually give his own contentions as to why he thinks the Cubs will win the World Series rather then just try to refute my points. My opponent may attempt to try and pass the Burden of Proof onto myself but it is he who has to prove that the Cubs will win in the next five years. All I have to say and prove why the Cubs won't win.

The Cubs have not won the World Series since 1908, so there is also no evidence to show that they will win the World Series anytime soon.

However, if my opponent just decides to try to refute my points while continuing to not make a case then I ask you keep that in mind when you go to vote.

I would like to take this time to once again thank my opponent for creating this case, and I strongly urge you the reader/voter to vote CON.
Debate Round No. 1
ghissong

Pro

Robert, if I may call you Robert, you make an excellent argument my friend. You bring up numerous stats that would make any baseball fan like myself respect your views and knowledge. But in this crazy game of baseball stats are just stats at times. The Angels won 100 games in regular season and lost in the ALDS. The Mets for the second straight year got eliminated from October play on the last day of the regular season, for the first time in 14 years the Yankees are not in the playoffs but Joe Torre still is. In October the lights shine and it is a whole new season my friend. Every team is 0-0 and every pitcher starts with a .000 ERA. So instead of trying to win hearts with throwing these stats out and trying to impress people try a different strategy. I ask the reader not to think with their brain but think with your heart in October. Think of that Don Larson perfect game in 1956 or Kirk Gibson's game ending blast in 1988. Think of baseball as more then who is leading the division in runs, but think of who is leading the division in your heart.

But lets get back to my Cubbies. Lets get past the curses and the last time we won a World Series, lets be mature adults and look at the future. Pitching wise we have Zambrano, Lilly and Harden coming back and the front office would be dumb not to resign Dempster. In the pen we have Marmol and Samarja being our go too 7th and 8th inning crew with Wood staying as our closer. Wood is like a fine wine, he only gets better with age my friend. Look for Fukudome and Sorriano to have a better seasons and Soto, Theriot and Aramis to lead the team with their bats. Lee is uncertain but we have a well seasoned front office that may include Mark Cuban in the near future. We have all seen what he did for the Dallas Mavericks.

I end this argument with a metaphor. The Cubs have all the tools to make a sweet victory pie, we just need to know the recipe. The recipe is there and look for Sweet Lou to be the Emeril that Chicago has been looking for. We have been to the playoffs twice with Lou, with every great pie it takes a couple times to get it perfect.
Robert_Santurri

Con

I would like to take this time to once again thank my opponent for creating such a debate and will jump right into his points.

I would first like to say to my opponent that of course you are free to call me Robert and that as you can see he admits I've made an excellent argument dear reader. He admits my numerous stats show my knowledge about Baseball.

My opponent has once again hoisted himself upon his own petard. He talks about the Angels, who lost to my World Series Defending Boston Red Sox. The Red Sox had a superior pitching trio and hitters, which is why they won in four games.

My opponent talks about the Mets, whose bullpen is perhaps worst in the league only second to the St. Louis Cardinals. Their hitting has also very been hot and cold throughout the season. This link is evidence of such:
http://blog.stats.com...

My opponent also talks about the Yankees, who are famously out of the playoffs this year. That reason being is their pitching both starting and relief that has failed along with their hitters who age is showing.

One may have a passion and love for Baseball like my opponent but as I've shown that stats, injuries, and hitting/pitching make a difference.

My opponent has given this speech about how anyone can win in October, yet it's just not true. Teams go to the playoffs year after year in their history and don't even win a single playoff series most of the time, a great example of this being the Cubs.

Every pitcher may start off with a 0.00 ERA and every series may start off 0-0 but would you honestly want a roster like the Red Sox, Tampa Bay Rays , and Phillies or rosters like the Pirates, Baltimore O's, and the Seattle Mariners? The obvious answer is the first three.

Now my opponent is asking you to think with your brains, not heart. My opponent is now saying this due to the sheer number of points against his case which he would be unable to refute. One cheers for one's team using their heart, one determines which team is better using facts. I am in this case using facts when deciding that the Cubs will not win the World Series in the next five years, my opponent is using his heart in hoping as a Cubbies fan that they shall. Leading the division in your heart or playoffs doesn't get you a World Series; it gets you disappointment until you come to accept the fact your team lost. Leading the division in runs and wins in the playoffs too gets you World Series Championships.

On to my opponent's attempt at refutation of my second and third contention:

My opponent does not want to look at the Cubbies curse which he has admitted is true and the fact they haven't won a World Series in most of the population's in the world lifetime.

I've already proven Zambarano and Harden's injuries and shown their lackluster performances in the playoffs. The Cubs may not get back one of the best pitchers on their staff; Ryan Dempster due to free agency. This is a front office that hasn't won a World Series in a hundred years; they are full of stupid mistakes. The Cubs also have a chance of losing Jon Lieber to free agency, along with Kerry Wood who my opponent compares to a fine wine. Except fine wine doesn't start to leak at certain points or have a sour taste.

If my opponent is relying on pitchers like Carlos Marmol and (whom I assume) Jeff Samardzija (who my opponent can't spell his name correctly) then they are in huge trouble
Fukudome is an even admitted bust by plenty of Cubs fans I know, and doubt will be much better. Soriano (Another name my opponent spelled wrong) to supposedly have a better season is based off hope by my opponent, nothing shows he shall. Heck, Soriano could get injured on the first game of the season next year and be out for the entire year.

Same thing holds for Theriot and Aramis. My opponent concedes my point about Lee and will hopefully do the same about the others I named.

My opponent talks about the Cubs front office that is "well seasoned." Well if they were "well seasoned" then perhaps they could use that $118 million payroll to have a team that can least win a playoff game next year unlike this year but I am once again even doubtful of that.

My opponent also holds out hope for Mark Cuban, who's greatest accomplishes with the Dallas Mavericks include this:
http://www.goldenstateofmind.com...

So wait, a highly favorite team losing badly in the first round of the playoffs? I can see why you think Mark Cuban would fit in great.

Let's not also forget this: The Mavericks went up two games to none against the Miami Heat, and would be leading by 14 in the second half of game three, and it looked as if the Mavericks were poised to win their first NBA title. But the Mavericks had a huge collapse; they blew the 14 point lead and lost the game, than would lose the next three as the Heat won their first title in six games.

Blowing huge leads? Another reason why he'd fit in great with the Cubs!
He would be able to continue the tradition of teams being overhyped and losing badly when it comes down to it but for the Cubs.

I refute my opponent final argument with these facts: The Cubs have neither the tools or know how to put together a championship team. They have proven this throughout the last hundred years. The Cubs do not know the recipe for winning as my opponent has stated. My opponent puts his hopes on the back of Lou Piniella, but my opponent fails to point out that "Sweet Lou" is far and long away from his days as a manager in Cincy and continues to become a failed manager in the MLB.

Final Points for this round:
I ask the reader/voter to extend my entire 1st argument down as my opponent has practically ignored refuting any of my points, rather just stating how Baseball is about heart so therefore you should vote with heart along with how the Cubs will be better though he has shown no evidence to back up such claims.

My opponent did not even try to refute my first contention. And he admitted my third contention did exist, the Billy Goat curse.

I myself am a die-hard Baseball fan. I grew up watching those Red Sox and have watched just about every game of theirs this season too. I've seen them win two World Series championships after not winning for so many years. Their secret didn't just believe in themselves as a team, it was being a great team. They had great pitching, excellent hitting, a good deal of luck, and of course heart. However, all baseball players and die-hard fans have heart I would like to think, to say that just because one has heart means they will win is not true.

So I ask you dear reader, when you go to the ballot to vote is to remember all this. And do remember that I've given you both facts and evidence, while my opponent offers hope for his team. In the end, everyone can have hope but it is the truth that counts the most.
Debate Round No. 2
ghissong

Pro

ghissong forfeited this round.
Robert_Santurri

Con

I would like to thank everyone for reading this debate thus far.

I ask that all my arguments from Round 1 as I asked and Round 2 be extended down as my opponent has refuted neither.

In the fairness of debate and in the hope that my opponent will return for Round 4, I will not be posting new arguments in this round but instead post this message.

However, I ask when you go to vote that you remember that my opponent has forfeited Round 3 of this debate along with everything else I posted earlier.

Thank you, and please vote CON.
Debate Round No. 3
ghissong

Pro

ghissong forfeited this round.
Robert_Santurri

Con

I would like to thank everyone for reading this debate thus far.

I ask that all my arguments from Round 1 as I asked and Round 2 be extended down as my opponent has refuted neither.

In the fairness of debate and in the hope that my opponent will return for Round 5, I will not be posting new arguments in this round but instead post this message.

However, I ask when you go to vote that you remember that my opponent has forfeited Round 3 and now 4 of this debate along with everything else I posted earlier.

Thank you, and please vote CON.
Debate Round No. 4
ghissong

Pro

ghissong forfeited this round.
Robert_Santurri

Con

I would like to thank everyone for reading this debate thus far.

I ask that all my arguments from Round 1 as I asked and Round 2 be extended down as my opponent has refuted neither.

I ask when you go to vote that you remember that my opponent has forfeited Round 3,4, and 5 of this debate along with everything else I posted earlier.

So since my opponent has forfeited more then half of the debate, has refuted none of my points, and everything else I hope it is a easy vote across the board for CON.

Thank you, and please vote CON.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Robert_Santurri 8 years ago
Robert_Santurri
2nd round argument posted.

Hope all the readers enjoy the debate thus far.
Posted by 90percentscartissue 8 years ago
90percentscartissue
Next five years? God, I hope so. Certainly in 2009 the Cubbies will be pre-season favorite in the Central Division. Brewers shot their wad. CC and Ben Sheets will not be back. Cardinals will be without their Pujols . . .

"Life begins when baseball season starts."
Posted by Robert_Santurri 8 years ago
Robert_Santurri
1st round argument posted.

Hope all the readers enjoy my refutation.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Labrat228 8 years ago
Labrat228
ghissongRobert_SanturriTied
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Vote Placed by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
ghissongRobert_SanturriTied
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Vote Placed by JBlake 8 years ago
JBlake
ghissongRobert_SanturriTied
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Vote Placed by Robert_Santurri 8 years ago
Robert_Santurri
ghissongRobert_SanturriTied
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