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Without God man cannot live morally, unable to stop sinning, continually condemned by their nature

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/2/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 714 times Debate No: 93253
Debate Rounds (5)
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Part of the proofs of God, is mans inability to remain sinless. The Law of the old testament were created to prove to mankind that they cannot live sinlessly, and are in need of God to assist them in overcoming sinful desires and weaknesses.

Rules#1 no acceptance statement required, just begin debate.
Rule#2 define as you go, and only if you need too, we shall presume intellegence on those who involve themselves. We shall also presume they know how to use a dictionary. Most people will actually look up a word they don't know, don't use your valuable space for definitions.

Man without God is in a perpetual state of sin, from serving the flesh, to lies, to cheats, to deviate behavior, to evil thoughts, to selfish goals, to hateful speech, to sexual deviate behaviors, drunkeness, to gossips, sex out of wedlock, living in sin, backstabbing, back biting, greed, hating towards parents, disobedience to parents, disrespectful, haters of God, haters of authority, distructive of others property, imagining evil of friends, family, coworkers.

In these conducts is shown the proofs of YOUR incapability to curb your evil nature. Mankind is SLAVE to his/her evil desires and shall for all life be subject to its desire .... unable to overcome it Man is destined by their nature to Hell. Ruled by their father the devil, they proceed under the delusion of control when they are being continually manipulated to increase in evil, in increments so small that after 20 years of indoctrination, not 1 of the sinners even recognizes good at all.

So controlled by evil are they that they can only find pleasure and contentment among the evil souls among their aquaintances, as they are in a constant state of dis ease, when surrounded by innocents, saints, God lovers, those who walk rightly. In this are they under direct conviction by God, this sensation, feeling experienced deep withing a doomed soul, is intolerable and requires the evil that possesses them to escape, such surroundings.

The demonics within them, immerse the slave to sin, with feelings of inadequacy, guilt, hate towards those they percieve as good. Only by surrounding themselves with evil souls can they attain peace. For this reason alone sinners do not attend church. Yes they SAY it is because they do not believe in God, but God's word points them out as liars. His word says His presence is all around them, the evidence of His(Gods) existence is plain and right in front of their eyes. They MUST LIE to themselves, convince themselves, despite evidence to the contrary that anything else is true, must be true, despite absence of proof, they will still refuse to seek God.

The evil which permeates their soul cannot abide the presence of good. They react aggressively towards anything that reflects pure good. Peace is only found in that which is contrary to good. That which is naturally good they are revulsed in the presence of it, because the demonics within them cannot abide good in any form. For this cause do they yearn for true good, in newspaper clippings, short stories .... Why because they are banished forever from what IS good by the demonics within them.

Continuiously under the control of these demonics, sinful man MUST avoid all places or areas which connect to God in any way whatsoever. It can only tolerate Religion ... any religion that does NOT give obesience to Jesus Christ, The Father and the Holy Spirit. The demonics war with the souls of those possessed, allowing them to continue to believe, they are controlling themselves, so long, and only so long as they remain true to sinful behaviors.

Don't believe it? Try going to church, bible study, daily reading of Gods word and see just how fast you LOSE the ability of self control. The demonic force within you will not tolerate such conduct ... it will fill you with discomfort, illness, changes in situations that PREVENTS you from going to church or Bible study. Dis ease an overwelming feelings of guilt and discomfort, that you will literally run from bible study, church attendance, anything to do with true God. You will know that is what happened the moment you openly STATE an EXCUSE for inability to go. That is your keeper telling YOU you cannot go there!

No you may believe you are a moral person but you would be lying to yourself? Do you support what is contrary to Gods word? Then you are immoral. Do you support sex out of wedlock? Then God says you are immoral, Do you live with someone intimately and are not married, then you are immoral, Do you Lie, cheat on your taxes , Then you are immoral, do you support LGBT, then you are immoral, Do you support politicians you know are immoral? Then YOU are immoral, Do you only give when it makes YOU feel good? Then you are immoral, Do you lust after women or women you see, then you commit adultery in your heart already , immorality abounds in your life. Are you only focused on you? Then you are immoral.

You see despite the lies you tell yourself the facts will always find you out. There is universal good, and you will be against it in one phase or another? Are you in support of killing babies? Then YOU are immoral. You have no hope of salavation unless and until you recognize that you ARE immoral, and are WILLING to repent (means to turn away from), Then and only then are you ready to meet God. and God will give you the ability to turn in reality away from active sin .... His strength and indwelling Spirit will make it for the first time in your existence possible for YOU to overcome a life spent in sin!

So what is the resolution you ask? That you are a slave to sin, now and for the forseeable future. If it's wrong you will go for it, if its right in accordance with Gods word you will be against it. It is your nature, that dooms you, but it is YOU that willfully allows it. You could change, YOU CHOOSE not to, and that's on you alone. Don't believe in Hell? Too bad cause that's where your going, cause unfortunately for you .... fire burns whether YOU believe it or not!



Hello, we meet again, I wish you good luck. First and foremost, lets clarify what the definition of God is. You refer to the Bible, so I assume you refer to a supreme being as seen below.

"1. God
a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions."

According to archeological evidence and Darwin's theory of evolution humans inhabited the planet Earth long before the Old Testament was written. "Instead, hominid evolution produced a dense thicket of branches, with several species co-existing at any given time except for the last 30,000 years or so" [2]

Now look at the timeline, humans have existed for at least 30,000 years. Early hominids have existed for much longer "The 2.8 million-year-old specimen is 400,000 years older than researchers thought that our kind first emerged." [3].

"Judaism is one of the oldest religions in the world that still exists today. Jewish history, beliefs, and traditions were recorded in the Hebrew Bible beginning as early as the 8th century BCE." [4]

Now that leaves a 22,000 year gap between the first humans and the first recordings in the Hebrew Bible. Humans had 22,000 years to develop morals. Humans must have developed at least some morals to survive that long. Think survival of the fittest. If humans fought all the time, we would have gone extinct before God came to guide us.

As for sin, how do we even know that sin exists? We cannot sin if sin does not exist. I ask my opponent what evidence do you have that sin exists?

Debate Round No. 1


Con's response: According to archeological evidence and Darwin's theory of evolution humans inhabited the planet Earth long before the Old Testament was written. "Instead, hominid evolution produced a dense thicket of branches, with several species co-existing at any given time except for the last 30,000 years or so" [2]

Now look at the timeline, humans have existed for at least 30,000 years. Early hominids have existed for much longer "The 2.8 million-year-old specimen is 400,000 years older than researchers thought that our kind first emerged." [3].

Sigh, my Kingdom for a person with reason, Reflection and research! Okay lets take this one step at a time, shall we?

humans have existed for at least 30,000 years.

In 1790 United States Census 3,929,214 in 227 years of life on Earth that number has grown to 323,928,727 stay with me now folks. Taking just the United States numbers as counted in 1790 3,929,214 and allowing it to only increase by itself each 227 years (it has actually in real time doubled itself 82.4 times in the 227 so we're really giving Con a huge break here!

Evidence: 323,928,727 divided by 3,929,214=82.4411007 So Cons getting a HUGE BREAK to attempt to give even a hint of credibility to his statement above.

Lets do the math.
30,000 years divided by 227 years= 132.15859
3,929,214 multiplied by 132=518,656,248

Subtract the total population in 1790 from the total that leaves 514,727,034 Million people who were missing IN 1790 .... where did the go? All those people just vanished leaving not a trace, no bones, nothing, ziltch, nada, which should be all over the place Millions of human bones .... but we find bones here and there, every blue moon we find one that is WOW 400,000 years old according to archeology.

Stop and think? Imagine if instead of using 132 to multiple our population in 1790 I used the absurd number Con suggested ... 2.8 Million divided by 227=12334.80

that population would be ..... to much to calculate.

So what do you think Folks? Has life existed on Earth 2.8 Million years? 400,000 years? 30,000 years? or might archeology really be in need of using a different way of calculating time? Is that in anyway mathmatically feasible?
Humanly possible?

Don't you think someone somewhere would have looked to the math for some form of checks and balances? But nope, you'd be wrong? If it sounds good to a scientist that's all they need to proclaim fact.

Biblically we've been here almost 7000 years and we started life with 2 people, 7000 years ago ending up with 3,929,214 souls by 1790. Now I ask you which one is even remotely logical.

sorry couldn't help myself I had to calculate the real population in 227 years of 323,928,727 by 132
answer; to be announced

by the way notice that con suggested 2.8 Million years old specimen? Yeah....right. you calculate that.

So enough of that nonsense. You see people, we have to think clearer than that. we can no longer just accept sciences theories without facts, they Lie far to much they produce a million reports but when you follow them to the end you come up with the same conclusions .... no evidence, they were and are just guessing, if it sounds good to them its a fact, and that's just wrong.

More over if there IS a God, and there is. Then people are being lead down the primrose path only to find themselves in Hell at the end of life's journey and why? Cause they trusted human beings who are fallible, and not unprone to lies.

Look I can't make you search for God I can like 2 Billion other Believers let you know He is Real and He is there and He is holding you accountable. the REST, is your responsibility. Get on these Boards look up all me debates which I lose because people aren't interested in truth and do not want to hear about Hell or being held accountable.

Sometimes I'm asked questions which are unworthy of asking. Most people are aware of dictionaries. I sometimes have problems in deciphering whether a person is being ignorant, obtuse or smart alec. I hopefully will tend to lean toward ignorance as ignorance is defined as lack of knowledge or information, where as obtuse is annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand, where as smart alec is a person who is irritating because they behave as if they know everything.

At any rate presuming all have access to a dictionary if sin did not exist people would not know what it is? Course there would still be the dictionary to help those souls, wouldn't there:

Defintion of Sin: an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law:
synonyms: immoral act wrong, wrongdoing,
act of evil/wickedness transgression, crime offense misdeed misdemeanor trespass wickedness wrongdoing wrong evil evildoing sinfulness immorality iniquity vice crime illegal or dishonest behavior: promiscuous wanton corrupt · impure

I believe that most people are basically honest, so I will allow you to determine if you have, do, or continue to do any of these acts. If so you sin.

Con: Humans had 22,000 years to develop morals. Humans must have developed at least some morals to survive that long. Think survival of the fittest. If humans fought all the time, we would have gone extinct before God came to guide us.

As to this remark? I leave you with the remarks of our founding father

“Human happiness and moral duty are inseparably connected.”
George Washington
“99% of failures come from people who make excuses.”
George Washington

“Nothing can illustrate these observations more forcibly, than a recollection of the happy conjuncture of times and circumstances, under which our Republic assumed its rank among the Nations; The foundation of our Empire was not laid in the gloomy age of Ignorance and Superstition, but at an Epoch when the rights of mankind were better understood and more clearly defined, than at any former period, the researches of the human mind, after social happiness, have been carried to a great extent, the Treasures of knowledge, acquired by the labours of Philosophers, Sages and Legislatures, through a long succession of years, are laid open for our use, and their collected wisdom may be happily applied in the Establishment of our forms of Government; the free cultivation of Letters, the unbounded extension of Commerce, the progressive refinement of Manners, the growing liberality of sentiment... have had a meliorating influence on mankind and increased the blessings of Society. At this auspicious period, the United States came into existence as a Nation, and if their Citizens should not be completely free and happy, the fault will be entirely their own.

[Circular to the States, 8 June 1783 - Writings 26:484--89]”
George Washington, Writings

answer: 42,758,723,964 - 42 Trillion, 758 Million,723 Thousand,964 souls Whew, could the planet hold that? and remember folks we didn't include animals, insects, sea life etc.... to even entertain 2.8 Million years would be ridiculous.



Round 2 Outline
I. Population
II. Sin doesn't exist
III. Morals without God
IV. Links

I. Population

"In 1790 United States Census 3,929,214 in 227 years of life on Earth that number has grown to 323,928,727" Christianbeliever

I fact checked the numbers and I agree that they are correct. Now, lets look at real worldwide populations and compare. Starting today, July, 08, 2016 and going back as far as possible.

The world population is now 7.4 billion. [5] Here's a chart with the world's population starting at 10,000 BC. [6]

At 10,000 BC there is one million humans. At the year zero there is 200 million. Now the closest on the chart is 1800, that's 900 million worldwide. So in approximately the same time period the worldwide population increased about eight fold as the USA population increased about one hundred fold.

What that means is that the USA was way above the average nation for population growth.

II. Sin doesn't exist

As for sin, sin has to to with divine law. Without God, there is no divine law and thus no sin. Therefore it is impossible to sin without God. Note, a person can still commit an immoral act as per code of laws of the nation and general census.

III. Morals without God

I'm not sure of the relevance of George's Washington's quote to the debate made by my opponent. Nevertheless, many philosophers have come up with philosophies that have morals within them.

IV. Sources

Debate Round No. 2


As was previously stated I give facts, while my opponent ...... imaginings, opinions conjectures. Proof positive, Con is deluded in the extreme, forever doomed to flights of fancy. Doomed to face his inevitable end eternally spearated from God.

Not a single fact has my opponent bothered to present, simply offering ignorant preposterous opinions complete devoid of merit. You have been presented with the first census of the United States for which may be found in the archives of the census bureau. whom was doing the census 10,000 years ago?

I will leave the readers to their own intellect in this matter. The mathmatical equations based on fact not fiction demonstrates a proven error in Archeological suppositions inconsistent with the known logics of mathmatical science. In short we have provided the first part of Conan Doyles eloquent quotation"

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. Arthur Conan Doyle

Proven impossible: Earth is greater than 7000 years old- Science used to verify error of fact or supposition: Mathmatics
Based upon: Actual US census of 1790. United States population 3,929,214 souls

Basis: population increase of 82 times population growth in 227 years of existence climbing to 323,928,727 in the United States alone.

10,000 divided by 227=44.0528634 since opponent refuses to be granted the extremely generous break given to him as a gift ... the gift is removed. As in real time . Earths population doubled itself 82.4 times in 227 years we will apply this to opponent ridiculous theory.

1,000,000 x 82.4= 82,400,000 total population in 227 years . Dividing 227 in 10,000 =44.0528634 that means to achieve actual numbers based on opponents completely fictional count.

82,400,000 souls multiplied by 44.05= by 1790 the total expected population whould have to be 3,629,720,000 three Billion, 629 Million 720 Thousand souls and not ony 3,929,214 again absolutely ludicrous and obviously impossible.

It is always disapointing to witness a being in such lack of clearity of wit, one whom believes reports without benefit of research.

The evidence has been made and provided.

Census 1790 -1890

1790 3,929,214 Beginning of Census 1890 62,947,714 increase of 12,791,931

1800 5,308,483 increase of 1,379,269 1900 75,994,575 increase of 13,046,861

1810 7,289,881 increase of 1,931,39 1910 91,972,266 increase of 15,977,691

1820 9,638,453 increase of 2,398,572 1920 105,710, increase of 13,788,354

1830 12,866,020 increase of 3,227,567 1930 122,775,046 increase of 17,064,426

1840 17,069,453 increase of 4,203,433 1940 131,669,275 increase of 8,894,229

1850 23,191,876 increase of 6,122,423 1950 150,697,361 increase of 19,028,086

1860 31,443,321 increase of 3,251,445 1960 178,464,236 increase of 27,766,875

1870 39,818,449 increase of 3,375,128 1960 179,323,175 corrected 28,625,614

1880 50,155,783 increase of 10,337,334 1970 203,235,298 increase of 23,912,123;

As to sin not existing? Not worth addressing;

There ARE NO MORALS wthout God. Man is in continuous servitude to its Flesh, its desire its wants. People lie cheat steal, naturally, and will do so throughout life UNLESS, they turn to God,who puts an abrupt end to this conduct and behavior making sin rare instead of the standard.

The Bibles information of life's existence of only 7000 years, starting with only 2 souls and reaching in the lower millions of souls by 1790, of which we can accurately account for the United States population of 3,929,214 souls is clear evidence of the vast error in archeological dating despite the excuses presented. Mathmatical facts demonstrate inaccuracy of the dating processes as no evidence can be found that even remotely substatiates such enormous erros in time versus possible life existence of life forms upon the planet.



Outline round 3
I. Population as a function of food availability
II. Sin
III. Sources

I. Population as a function of food availability

"Proponents of this theory indicate that every time food production is intensified to feed a growing population, the population responds by increasing even more. Some human populations throughout history support this theory, as consistent population growth began with the agricultural revolution, when food supplies consistently increased."

In other words, early humans didn't have the same agricultural technologies as today. Factory farming comes to mind. [8] Look at the tractors of today [9] versus the hand tools of yesteryear. [10]

There is no way humans could have produced enough food to support the populations my opponent is suggesting with those primitive tools.

II. Sin

You have no proof God exists, without God there is no divine law, and therefore there is no sin.

"There ARE NO MORALS wthout God. Man is in continuous servitude to its Flesh, its desire its wants. People lie cheat steal, naturally, and will do so throughout life UNLESS, they turn to God,who puts an abrupt end to this conduct and behavior making sin rare instead of the standard." Christianbeliever

Then, what would you call the crusades? How about the children's crusades? [11]The fact that you tell such blatant falsehoods and God does not strike you down only provides further evidence that God probably doesn't exist.

III. Sources

Debate Round No. 3


Opponent: I. Population as a function of food availability

"Proponents of this theory indicate that every time food production is intensified to feed a growing population, the population responds by increasing even more. Some human populations throughout history support this theory, as consistent population growth began with the agricultural revolution, when food supplies consistently increased."

Food avaiability was greater in the past than the present, a simple look of the terrain as described by archeologist demonstrates that the deserts of today were lush jungles,
About a million years ago humans discovered how to use fire to cook food.
This enabled them to eat a wider range of food. Cooked food was also tender to eat and did not require heavy chewing.
Human jaws became smaller and the cranium larger, giving the skull a much more modern appearance, as opposed to the heavy, ape-like jaws and small craniums previously seen.

The earliest people were hunter-gatherers.
In the days before farming, hunter-gatherer groups would have been larger than those that still exist today. Their diets would have been more abundant and varied.

Today's hunter-gatherers are found living in dry or less accessible places (deserts and dense forests), as farming populations have taken over more and more land. They have adapted to these difficult environments with enormous skill, but it has limited their diet.

The Paleolithic hunter-gatherer diet would have been varied.
It would have consisted of meat, fish, shellfish, leafy vegetables, fruit, nuts and insects in varying proportions.

There is little direct evidence to show how much of the diet was made up of plant or animal foods.

The two roles of hunter and gatherer were probably carried out by different people.
Within the group, it would have been the men who did the hunting and the women and children who gathered the plants.

The gathering activity provided most of their nutrition and so was always the more important of the two. Nevertheless, possibly because of the danger and physical strength required, hunting is likely to have been seen as the more prestigious role.
Hunting required a wide range of skills.
The hunters would have to know how to track and kill the animals without getting hurt themselves. It also required courage, as some of the animals they hunted were large and powerful.

The hunters would have needed detailed knowledge about animal behaviour for tracking them, stealth for creeping up on them unawares, observation in selecting an appropriate animal for attack (small, weak, wounded, or perhaps simply unaware), hand-eye co-ordination for an accurate throw or shoot, speed in chasing down a wounded animal.

Many of the animals hunted at this time no longer exist.
Examples of such extinct animals are huge woolly mammoths and mastodons, giant hornless rhinos, massive flightless birds.

These prehistoric animals are known as 'megafauna' (which means, 'giant animals'). From around 2 million years ago, the types of animals living in Britain in warmer periods were similar to those seen in the modern grasslands of Africa and, during the colder phases, mammoths, woolly rhino, large elks, wolves and horses could be found. The meat they gave must have been similar to their modern cousins.
Food had to be eaten quickly before it went bad.
Once a kill had been made, all the meat had to be eaten immediately, as there was no means of storing it. Any that was not eaten very quickly rotted and caused health problems.

This is not so for other predators: lions, for example, can come back to a kill after several days. Scientists are not sure why humans have lost the ability to eat rotten food.

The hunter-gatherers would have had detailed knowledge of their environment.
They would have known an awful lot about the animal and plants living there, a kind of knowledge completely lost by modern humans.

Anthropologists studying primitive peoples have been amazed by the depth of knowledge they have about the food and medicinal properties of the thousands of different plants which populate a given area (eco-system).

Cooking was done on open fires and meals may have developed into more social events.
At this time, meals may have started to become as important as they have been in traditional societies ever since. The open fires were often made in shallow pits to conserve the heat and protect from the wind.

So much is unknown about their way of life; however, there is evidence that large amounts of meat and other foods were cooked very effectively. Hunter-gatherer groups did not carry heavy cooking implements with them. These came later, after the coming of farming had allowed people to settle in one place.
Cooking used easy to obtain items such as plant leaves and stones.
One cooking method was to dig a large hole, light a fire in it, place large stones on top and heat them to a high temperature, then place meat on top of the hot stones between layers of green plants and cover the whole thing with earth.

The layer of moist green plants was spread over the stones, followed by the meat with herbs, vegetables, nuts and other plants to add flavour. Another layer of moist plants was spread over the top, and finally the hole filled in with earth. The layers of moist plants protected the food from getting dirty and provided moisture for steam. The food cooked for two or three days and was, apparently, delicious when ready

Other methods of cooking were boiling and roasting.
A different method of cooking was to fill a pit with water, and then drop heated stones into it to boil the water. Meat would then be dropped into the water to be boiled and more stones added to keep the water hot. Roasting animals over spits was also common.

The remains of such hot water pits have been found in their thousands. Small animals could easily be skewered, kebab-style, and placed on hot stones; larger animals required the construction of a full-scale spit - a piece of wood shafted through the animal and hung over a fire by means of cross-sticks.

In the late Paleolithic period, Britain's native flora developed.
As the ice retreated, at the end of the last ice age, Britain's native flora developed. Many of these plants were gathered and used to supplement the diet.

Edible native plants included Charlock (Field Mustard), Water Cress, Garlic Mustard, Chickweed, Wood Sorrel, Cow Parsley, Pignut, Wild Angelica, Wild Parsnip, Wild Carrot, Stinging Nettle, Water Mint, Wild Thyme, Wild Marjoram, Tansy, Chicory, Dandelion, Ramsons (Wild Garlic), Buttercups, Rose, Blackthorn and Elder, amongst many others.

The Paleolithic diet was more nutritious than the early Neolithic diet.
Overall, Paleolithic/Mesolithic hunter-gatherers would have experienced less malnutrition than the Neolithic farming tribes that followed.

This was because they had access to a wider variety of plants and foods, providing a more nutritious diet.
Early peoples often lived near the coast, supplementing their diet with seaweeds and shellfish.
Fish, both freshwater and seawater, were a very common feature of prehistoric diets.

Autumnal harvests of nuts and berries would bring groups inland to collect, prepare and store food for overwintering.
Fish could be quite difficult to cook, so they were baked in wet clay.
If fish get too hot, their meat is easily charred. An effective method that prevented this was to cover the fish entirely in wet clay, then place it in a hot fire.
After some time, the clay would be baked and the fish also. The clay covering would be broken and the fish was ready to eat.

The making of alcohol also started in the Paleolithic period.
It was also during the Paleolithic period that people first began fermenting grapes in animal skin pouches, to create wine.

Nearly every human society, since, has learnt how to use plants to make alcohol.

Farming changed the diet of humans radically.
People settling down in one place were able to develop new, heavy implements for cooking. This changed what was cooked and how it was cooked.

The Neolithic period saw the diet change to one of cereals and produce from domesticated animals.
The diet became restricted to a mixture of successfully cultivated cereal grains, such as wheat and barley, other cultivated plants (such as beans, cabbages, spinach, onions, garlic, cucumbers) and domesticated animal products, including milk.

Although the diet may have been supplemented by hunting and gathering, in some cultures there would have been a significant increase in starch and plant protein.

Farming saw the introduction of animals that we still use for meat or dairy today.
As people started to move towards more settled communities, domestication of livestock saw animals that we are familiar with today. Pigs, sheep and goats became popular as food.

During the Mesolithic or 'Middle Stone Age', wild pigs were the main source of meat and, later during the Neolithic, the first domesticated animals were sheep and goats. In the Bronze Age, sheep were the most popular meat and, during the Iron Age, pig breeds, similar to the saddleback today, were farmed.

There is existence of evil actions as there is evidence of kindnesses suggest the absurdity of the sin question as is evidenced by the existence of exceptionally evil souls. God existence has never been disproven as science has for its own reasons, opted to not seek Him. 2 Billion of the 7 Billion populace of today have opted to seek Him, these 2 Billion testify as to Gods existence, therefore the possibility is clearly demonstrated that He does exist. Those who have found God know that Hell also exist.

All souls are free to choose to seek Him or to accept the conequences of their choice to refuse to seek Him, which is death of the body and the second death of the soul, which is defined as eternal punishment in the Lake of Fire as directed by Gods word.


Outline round 4

I. Intro
II. More food now than before
III. What ancient or wild food looked like
IV. Sin versus immoral
V. Conclusion
VI. Sources

I. Intro

I thank my opponent for continuing the debate. I'm going to focus on two key points my opponent made as seen below.

"Food avaiability was greater in the past than the present, a simple look of the terrain as described by archeologist demonstrates that the deserts of today were lush jungles, " Christianbeliever

"There is existence of evil actions as there is evidence of kindnesses suggest the absurdity of the sin question as is evidenced by the existence of exceptionally evil souls." Christianbeliever

First, food availability was considerable lower. Otherwise, the human population would have most likely ballooned just like Christianbeiever stated in the previous rounds. Second, my opponent seems to be confusing immoral acts and sin. There is a large difference between a human law and divine law.

II. More food now than before

Watch the documentary king corn to see just how much food we can produce per acre. The mountains of grain weren't possible in ancient times. [12]

III. What ancient or wild food looked like

Bananas would have lots of seeds, chickens would be much smaller and lay less eggs just for starters. [13]

IV. Sin versus immoral actions

A human law might be stop at stop signs. This is not a sin, but arbitrarily running stop signs is considered an immoral act. A divine law would be laws against adultery. Many consider two consenting adults have sexual intercourse to be moral according to man-made law regardless of their marriage status. According to many religious texts of varying religions this is against divine law.

V. Conclusion

There is no way the paleolithic era could have provided enough food for humans to grow to the populations my opponent suggests. Also, people are definitely capable of immoral acts, yet we are still waiting for evidence of humans having souls.

VI. Sources

Debate Round No. 4


It is with great humor I continue to see how a closed mind works no matter the evidence , resorts to opinions to refute evidences. opinions of people whom were not present in those times. This is the primary reason, that science must be gauged by an intelligent, reflective and thoughtful manner in all they present. Unlike my friend ape here, one must view all data on existing FACTS, and not simply side with them in the absence of clear undeniable evidence.

For example. The Census is documented historical record. The numbers albeit just reflective of the United States alone, CAN BE USED to ascertain reasonable global numbers. dividing the present population into the total population gives an approximation of total population of 1790.

7.4 Billion divided by 323,928,727=22.8445315 Therefore we multiple 3,929,214 by 22.8=89,586,079 rounding this provides us with an approximation of world population ........ not exact to be sure but certainly within the realm of possibility .... or we can use my Friend Apes, method .... liar liar pants on fire technique.

Not desiring to delve into the world of imagination IS the point of contention. One cannot simply opinion to accept the thoughts of man as valid evidence as each soul is certainly different and some, not quite in tune with one another? At any rate, let us consider the premise in it's entirety. There were no concrete cities in those days, so agriculture would have grown spontaneously. Archeologist insist that dinosaurs and man could not have existed together , I of course disagree with them, but if we use this as accurate it is all the more credible, that population would continue in a substantial growth pattern, if we consider that Cavemen did not shall we say wait for romantic mood? or permission .... ?

Man even today is the ultimate predator over all creatures.

So Apes response of :
There is no way humans could have produced enough food to support the populations my opponent is suggesting with those primitive tools.

I applaud my Ape friends insight as I totally agree with Him. There is NO WAY that population existed. Course Ape failed to see my point entirely. My point was that Life on Earth has been 7000 approximate years as stated in the Bible, not 30,000, 400,000 or 2.8 Million. So you See Ape. You are right .... there is no way Life could have existed on the earth longer than 7000 years and began with more than 2 people ..... just like the Bible said.

This of course naturally brings us to the second part: The Bible is very much more credible about how long life has been on Earth as tabulated by Sciences Theories, plus factual Census population as existed in 1790, multiplied by science suggested (and clearly in error) age of the population existence. It simply is NOT plausible as Ape and I have stated that life could possibly support so enormous a population, so the Mathematics or the Scientists are wrong? Since Math is based only on data input and not conjectures or opinions outside the realm of realities .... mathematics in this case is more accurate.

Remember Conan Arthur Doyle~Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

Ape and I now KNOW that it is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for Life to have existed upon the Earth the amounts of times they claim, THEREFORE however improbable or hard for society to want to believe, Life had to exist the time frame suggested by the Biblical account. 7000 years!

Perhaps your saying to yourself, wait a minute, not so fast we didn't do the 7000 year equation at all. Not so That number would also be impossible ..... as of 1790 the population would have had to be 121,019,791 and it wasn't it was 3,929,214 leaving 117,090,577 Million people unaccounted for, gone without evidence or bodies. So I went to the record again (Biblical Account). According to the Biblical record the population was 2 at Earths beginning.

I am content to accept the mathematical probabilities that beginning with 2 and accounting for births, exponentially it is highly likely that the population of the United States would BE a paltry 3,929,214 by 1790.

of course I leave the calculations to those who wish the challenge. Suffice it to say that :
The Biblical account of Life's existence far and above is both, Logical and extremely more plausible than Archeological findings based on obviously flawed mathematical data .... ie... carbon dating.

Don't get bent out of shape, I'm not saying carbon dating is wrong, I'm saying God can create a billion year old rock in a fraction of that time, if we consider that the Biblical text clearly infers Adam was created a MAN not a child. He would have tested no doubt to be years old, though newly created. Improbable, perhaps but not impossible to God!

EVERYTHING ELSE has proven impossible .... only the existence of GOD REMAINS POSSIBLE and PLAUSIBLE! I can testify that God does in fact exist. You will get to meet Him, now or in the future. That meeting will be one of Joy or one of Horror ... That has always been your choice. I thank you for your Kind attention.


Thanks for the debate. My opponent has not swayed my opinion in the least. I find it much more likely that man has existed over 30,000 years than7,000 years or so as my opponent suggests. My opponent seems to hold-fast to population growth in the 1970s to modern day based upon the U.S. census as a constant for human population growth. I don't agree, it makes no sense to me. There was less food available in the past, and population is often the function of food availability.
Debate Round No. 5
43 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by whiteflame 3 months ago
>Reported vote: migmag// Mod action: Removed<

7 points to Con. Reasons for voting decision: well stated Con

[*Reason for removal*] Not an RFD.
Posted by migmag 3 months ago
College and Education PROVE there is NO GOD
Posted by canis 3 months ago
Ohh my god..What a believe in a book, and disbelieve in life...
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 months ago
malalo75 ;
You do wrong. Man's sin nature is no reflection upon God, but a refection upon sinful man. God created Adam, Adam created sin.

The government is guilty of the same thing as you, they blame the gun for killing people instead of blaming the people who are doing the killing.

Seek the God that really exists, and stop relying on what you think, because your thoughts are NOT His thoughts. God saves, man destroys ... it's that simple.
Posted by malalo75 3 months ago
"Man without God is in a perpetual state of sin"
...and yet so many men of god have abused young boys.

So god supposedly created mankind, and also created sin, put sin into mankind, then punishes mankind for sinning.
If that god existed, he'd cruel and so petty....
Posted by Bored_Debater 3 months ago
God blows DDD...
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 months ago
Those who live by the flesh do not belong to God, and are not part of Him, no matter their profession. The woman showed her obedience, to Christ and only those who seek His righteousness have hope of escaping Hell, all others despite all their talk must know Him. not just one or two words. You must know Him and His word. The devil believes in God and knows His word, and he isn't saved either!

Those who support sinful living are not of God, they support their own causes, they think in worldly terms. Speak in worldly terms, their concerned only of the worldly comforts of life, and not the Kingdom.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 months ago

Without God man cannot live morally, unable to stop sinning, continually condemned by their nature.
that IS the point ... you keep missing.

Christ died for the remission of sin, but one MUST go to the cross or there is no forgiveness. You will note that the women WENT to Christ, and was in obedience to Him as her Lord, anointing His feet kissing His feet unceasingly, she showed by deeds her submission to His authority, for this cause her sins being much were forgiven as she loved much were, where as Simon, by appearances made not even the customary requirements.

Once again ..... lest you Come to Christ and accept His sacrifice for your sin, repent (turn away from those sins) submit your life as is required:

Luke 9:23 Then he said to them all: "Whoever wants to be my disciple must DENY THEMSELVES and take up their cross daily and follow me.

Matthew 10:38
and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.

Luke 14:27
And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.

you cannot claim Christs, grace and live IN sin.

Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Unfortunately God is not what man wants to believe He is ... God is who He is and that doesn't change by the desires of man or by mans wishful thinking.
Posted by Emmarie 3 months ago
Just as I expected, a preacher who throws scriptures around to support his own agenda, but refuses to acknowledge the words of the person who the religion is based on. Ok, I'll rephrase the question, what relevance does Luke 7:47 hold to Christ's teaching on sin and forgiveness? Are you dismissing the lesson he brought to the attention of his followers and adversaries in this passage? I base my faith on it. Are you gonna attempt to dismiss the basing of my faith one of Christ's most important teachings?
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 3 months ago
The interesting and poinant point is that people who do not KNOW of the reality of God, But are aware of the place CALLED HELL, still refuse to Find out on their own whether Hell, God, Heaven are real .... instead they are so obtuse, so lacking in intelligence, that they will purchase insurance, for houses, cars, boats, life, but never consider seeking to establish insurance for their SOULS, willfully walking straight into Hell, on the last moment of their life? Go figure.
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