The Instigator
zeromeansnothing
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
PowerPikachu21
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Without lies humanity would perish of despair and boredom. Anatole France

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Post Voting Period
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It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/15/2015 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 622 times Debate No: 80989
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (0)

 

zeromeansnothing

Con

Con/Pro, it is a 50/50 call. Maybe Anatole is correct, maybe he is not. You can take your pick and I will set it up.

I like this guy.

'Wandering re-establishes the original harmony which once existed between man and the universe.

It is by acts and not by ideas that people live.

Nature has no principles. She makes no distinction between good and evil.'


Anatole France






PowerPikachu21

Pro

I'll be taking the Pro stance for "Without lies humanity would perish of despair and boredom". I say that humanity would perish.

Think about this: if everyone told the truth all the time, it would get kind of boring. There are also times where lying is the best action, as opposed to telling the truth. Let's say, for example, you lived in a society that requires religion, but you aren't religious. If they found out that you aren't religious, you'd be executed. So naturally you'd lie and say you are religious. Despair would befall on you and your family is you were to be executed.

I await my opponent's argument. My Round 2 argument will be a rebuttal on your Round 2 argument. (I may also counter any rebuttals Con comes up with in my examples) (PS I don't really see any relevance with the quote you cited, or how it may help your case on the matter.)
Debate Round No. 1
zeromeansnothing

Con

I am now talking to a Pokemon, that's another off my 'bucket-list'

You say: '(I don't really see any relevance with the quote you cited, or how it may help your case on the matter.)'

Read up on this guy, Anatole France. He is like me, what you see is not necessariy what is. (A pokemon buff like yourself should get this) He is being 'dead pan' if you like.

There are no lies

Listen to Ronald Reagan on the Iran-Contra deal.

'"A few months ago I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not.'

Listen to another US President , Bill Clinton


' I did not have sexual relations with that woman '

Of course he did!

Here is my man again,''Ignorance is a necessary condition of human happiness, and it must be owned that in most cases we fulfill it well. We know almost nothing about ourselves; absolutely nothing about our neighbors. Ignorance constitutes our peace of mind; self- deception our felicity Anatole France:.'

If we are to get anywhere, then we must eliminate falsehood and climb out of our letargy. What do you think??

PowerPikachu21

Pro

OKAY! Right off the bat, he calls me a pokemon. "(A pokemon buff like yourself should get this)" Some ad homonym here, but I'll let it slide for now.

Rebuttals:

"There are no lies" seems to be what your grasping at, since it's in bold, and there's no way it can't be your stance. But alas, the stance is futile, here's why: Bill Clinton said, and I quote what you quoted " ' I did not have sexual relations with that woman ' ". You say "Of course he did!".

We seem to have contradicting thoughts. One of you two (I'd say Bill) is LYING!

Anatole's quote sums up to "Ignorance keeps us in a peaceful state of mind" and most importantly, for my case, "self deception our felicity" are his ending thoughts.

felicity means "1.intense happiness" and " 2.the ability to find appropriate expression for one's thoughts". Definition 1 suggests that lying (self-deception; lying to ourselves) is good. We can of course pretend to feel sorry for the neighbor who we don't know (gonna go into a literal sense here), whose friend died. And Steve, our own friend, killed him for his money. We don't know the person, so we wouldn't need to feel bad, only pretend!

My conclusion: my opponent made a point, but messed up his argument with Bill Clinton. In favor of my own argument, he presented a quote from Anatole France, saying basically "lying to the self makes happy".

In Round 3, just to make this clear, Con's job is to make a point, and actually support it. If his thoughts contradict any quotes from a person (like Bill Clinton having an affair with a woman), or he contradicts himself, I will point this out, and the contradictions are usually bad for your case. Of course I will refute his argument in Round 3, as well as sum up my own points. I wish thee luck.
Debate Round No. 2
zeromeansnothing

Con

Good Retort, PowerPickachu21,

You have finally convinced me that you 'get' the parameters of this consideration.

I propose that lies are boring and I used political hogwash to illustrated this fact.

Self-delusion and pretence are also soul destroying and ultimately 'boring'

It is like eating waffles all day. It is what we do. One might suggest that we are only bored coming down from these injections of regular 'lie fixes',but in fact we are 'bored all the time'. I'm bored with Syria because Clinton actually had sex with Monica. I was reading a Guardian account about the sex last night before bed. I spent yesterday watching Obama pirouette around lies with regard to the actual state of combat on the ground in Afghanistan. Who is he kidding? Not even himself! Yawn! Boring!

Now examine the alternative which is my position and which is one to which you did not respond.

What happens when we 'drop' lies?

Listen to Anatole France within comments and he will tell you.

We go for walks.
We define ourselves by deeds.
We proceed with conviction and truth and we 'seize the day'
This would not be boring because of the immediacy of the interraction and because of the progressive progression of the process. PPP.

Do you get it?
Lies and sloth are easy options and are bad habits akin to eating rubbish. We are lethargic and bored as a result.

We need to go on a 'lie free' diet and thus become energized.


I thank you for your contributions to date, to this discussion, PowerPickachu21, and I look forward to your counter argument regarding the central purport of my submission to this round
PowerPikachu21

Pro

Hang on, your arguments in Round 3 have contradicted Anatole France's quote from Round 2. You have said lying is boring, when Anatole said, and I quote, "Ignorance constitutes our peace of mind; self- deception our felicity". Are you for this person or not? Anyways, back on track.

Of course lying makes happiness! Well, sometimes. Like when you're pranking someone. But This is only HALF of the resolution. Don't you/Anatole also have to prove that lying creates despair?

"We need to go on a 'lie free' diet and thus become energized." This shows your stance; lying is outright immoral. (I believe so, anyways) But there are times when, like I said in round 1, lying is the most moral action. Like, for example, the game "Town of Salem". Basically, if your mafia, or any evil role, you must pretend to be a member of the town. This game, once you've started playing it, you'll get used to the deceiving tactics fort the game. And you'll be happy, most likely! (just hope that the town is smart if you are town.)

As for the despair side of the resolution, I've stated the "not religious gets executed" example, but I'll provide another.

Suppose you have a friend that asks you if you have his house locked and secure, as he's a rich person and has lots of money. But, of course, you were unable to find the keys and lock everything at the time. Would you tell the truth, making the friend angry and upset at you? Or would you tell, what we would call, a 'white lie", and tell him that you did lock the house. Which would make him pleased. You could always go back and lock the door if you got the chance later.

I hope this clears up any confusion Con may have about my stance. (Next round, I'll be sure to quote Anatole, as it may [or if it doesn't help, I won't quote him] help me) Good luck with your next argument.
Debate Round No. 3
zeromeansnothing

Con

PowerPickachu21 states: ' Suppose you have a friend that asks you if you have his house locked and secure, as he's a rich person and has lots of money. But, of course, you were unable to find the keys and lock everything at the time. Would you tell the truth, making the friend angry and upset at you? Or would you tell, what we would call, a 'white lie", and tell him that you did lock the house. Which would make him pleased. You could always go back and lock the door if you got the chance later.'

Think about your question!

You left your friends valuables 'open to the elements' and then you lied about it.
What happens if the house is robbed? Will you tell another lie? Will he believe you?

Practice after me.

My good friend X , I Powerpickachu21 screwed up. Your house is unguarded and unlocked. Please do not worry as I am going to do this task immediately. The truth shall set you free.

People who tell lies require good memories. Living under a lie is like digging your own grave. Think about the worst lie that haunts you. I am thinking about mine. I will not be revealing it to anyone soon. Are we capable of living without falsehood, probably not, but neither should it become a hobby. My friend is a compulsive liar and I know a girl who is one as well. She told us she was minding her own kid for a friend?? He told us that he had a photographic memory but he could not remember 5 items on a menu. Do you know anyone like this. I bet you do. I would be telling you a lie if I told you I knew who was winning here. I did say that it would be a 50/50 call.
PowerPikachu21

Pro

Yes, my "rich friend" example was terrible. But you never said anything about Town of Salem being bad! It's a fun game where if you are an evil role, you must deceive the town into believing you're one of them. I hold my position.

Also, I need to make something clear: my opponent has conceded that we cannot live without lies: " Are we capable of living without falsehood, probably not, but neither should it become a hobby." (<- round 4) In round 2, Anatole France states "Ignorance constitutes our peace of mind; self- deception our felicity", which is GOOD FOR MY CASE!

Con also changed his stance numerous times. Round 2: "Lies don't exist". Round 3: "We need to go on a 'lie free' diet and thus become energized.". Round 4: Con concedes by saying "Are we capable of living without falsehood, probably not, but neither should it become a hobby." And why are we bringing up Anatole again? Are you agreeing with him, are you disagreeing, or is Anatole France just irrelevant to this debate in general?

I await my opponent's final response. I propose that Con summarizes his argument, and I shall too. If Con has any objections for my arguments, feel free to point them out. Con must also make his position clear, as it seemed like he changed it throughout this debate. Is Con agreeing with me that humanity would perish without lies? I await your final response.

[[ My stance in this debate is that without lies, humanity WOULD INDEED perish from despair and boredom ]]
Debate Round No. 4
zeromeansnothing

Con

Thank You PowerPickachu21,

My position on this is simple

Humanity is already perishing on a junk diet of lies and falsehood and the symptoms of our demise are despair and boredom.

We genuinely believe that our situation is hopeless and we invent strategies to deal with this subconscious acceptance.

Most zeromeansnothingof our religions contain these inbuilt fantastic salvations that show a hero riding into town to lead all to a better place.

Within a world of lethargy and lies real considerations become equivalent to the chore of cleaning our rooms. We will do it when our mother has complained enough. We will do it unwillingly and without care. (Check Global Carbon Agreements)

Conniving cynical opportunists in the political, industrial and religious world manipulate our indifference towards their own ends and our lack of discernment and engagement leave us living off a conveyor belt of expensive rubbish. Rubbish films, rubbish theology, rubbish politics and rubbish...............Yawn! Sorry I nodded off there.

Surely the elimination of these delusions would be a positive start. This is not a matter of 'whatever' but is rather a matter of life or death. All addictions require a realization and an epiphany that tells us that our habits are self destructive in their essence.

Thank You for considering this subject






PowerPikachu21

Pro

Before I go into my argument, something need to be clarified. "Most zeromeansnothingof our religions contain these inbuilt fantastic salvations that show a hero riding into town to lead all to a better place." what do you mean by 'most of zeromeansnothingof'? I'm assuming this was an attempted pun? Or maybe you copy/pasted your name on accident?

Anyways, on to my rebuttal.

You state that humanity is perishing from lying. However, this is not true. You quoted Anatole France, remember? " Here is my man again,'Ignorance is a necessary condition of human happiness, and it must be owned that in most cases we fulfill it well. We know almost nothing about ourselves; absolutely nothing about our neighbors. Ignorance constitutes our peace of mind; self- deception our felicity Anatole France:.' " I don't see how that quote will get you anywhere as long as it stands.

The resolution is "Without lies humanity would perish of despair and boredom." Your stating that lies are the cause of despair. However, I've already provided an example that lies are nessicary to life (my religious example). Boredom, well, Town of Salem! You've already conceded by saying, and I quote "Are we capable of living without falsehood, probably not". Yes, it should not become a hobby, but this is irrelevant, as the resolution is "Without lies, we'd perish" and not "With lies, we would perish". Either way, there is indeed a middle ground in both resolutions, and I stand by that middle ground.

Good game, and may the voters choose the victor!
Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by PowerPikachu21 1 year ago
PowerPikachu21
The debate's voting period is almost over, and it can't end without a clear vote. Would someone vote on this, please?
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: Garbanza// Mod action: Removed<

3 points to Con (Arguments). Reasons for voting decision: Pro didn't demonstrate that humanity would perish without lies. At most, he showed that lies can be fun sometimes. I liked Con's argument that lies can be really boring. Pro's position was harder to argue than Con's, I think, but he got to pick the side he wanted. Great debate. If you don't like this rfd, say so in the comments and I'll expand.

[*Reason for removal*] The voter has to specifically examine arguments made by each side, and not merely state that he did or didn't find certain points convincing without explaining why they were or were not convincing.
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Posted by PowerPikachu21 1 year ago
PowerPikachu21
@Garbanza What exactly was better about Con's argument than Pro's? I feel like that needs to be expanded upon. What points did Con make better?
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
*******************************************************************
>Reported vote: Bosoxfaninla// Mod action: Removed<

5 points to Con (Arguments, Sources). Reasons for voting decision: Amazing debate from both sides. I never actually thought about this topic before so it was interesting reading through the debate. You both did a magnificent job. Unfortunately I do have to side with the con who undoubtedly did provide the stronger argument. He also provided more quotes from both "his man" Anatole France, and the Presidents. Great job from both sides though. On a side note the yawn in round 3 of the cons arguement literally made me yawn xD

[*Reason for removal*] (1) The voter doesn't actually explain why Con had the stronger argument, merely asserting that it was so. If Con made the stronger arguments, the voter has to point to those specific arguments in order to show that they are deriving their decision from points made in the debate. (2) Source points require more than just stating that one side provided "more quotes".
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Posted by PowerPikachu21 1 year ago
PowerPikachu21
I meant "why you voted for CON". *facepalm*. But seriously, please explain yourself.
Posted by PowerPikachu21 1 year ago
PowerPikachu21
Okay. Bosoxfaninla, can you explain exactly why you voted for Pro? "Unfortunately I do have to side with the con who undoubtedly did provide the stronger argument." Which is what argument(s) that remained unrefuted? I want to know. Just asking, because I'm worried you may be biased. "He also provided more quotes from both "his man" Anatole France, and the Presidents." I do say that he did quote "his man" and presidents, but that isn't everything in a debate. It's the validity of said quotes. I did show the flaws in the quotes. Again, I'm worried your vote was biased to Con, as you only talked about that Con was better than me, but you never said WHY he's better. (Sorry if I sounded angry with my previous comment, but you are biased, I believe)
Posted by PowerPikachu21 1 year ago
PowerPikachu21
Uhhh... Bosoxfaninla, I refuted his argument. He even conceded his point, as I've shown! (I may seem like a bad sport, but I think Bosoxfaninla's vote is biased.) You don't always have to quote someone to win. Con's quotes actually HURT HIS CASE.
Posted by PowerPikachu21 1 year ago
PowerPikachu21
"Kidnap a voter"? I think we'll be fine! (Although I wonder if someone actually did that. Hopefully not!) Then again, I don't really have much voters on my debates. [I know that was a joke]
Posted by zeromeansnothing 1 year ago
zeromeansnothing
Yep! PowerPickachu21, the last bit was a typo, I am nobody's hero. I would be amazed if we find a voter unless we kidnap one. Good Luck
Posted by zeromeansnothing 1 year ago
zeromeansnothing
Hi nyqii , this debate may not be what you expect it to be. It is more than just telling a lie. Have a think about it and if you have plenty of time then, give it your best shot. I am old and experienced at debating from other debate sites. You would be Pro which is fine/ Anyway, thanks for your interest.
No votes have been placed for this debate.