The Instigator
SoSilly
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
vardas0antras
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points

Women have equal rights but are not the same as men.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/5/2010 Category: Society
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,293 times Debate No: 13914
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (16)
Votes (2)

 

SoSilly

Pro

1. Women have equal rights to men. (but) 2. Women are not the same as men.

When I say 'rights' I'm referring to 'Human rights'. [1]

When I say 'not the same as' I mean biologically [2] and in behavioural neuroscience. [3]

I will leave it at that for round one and let the contender introduce themselves.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org...

2. http://en.wikipedia.org...

3. http://en.wikipedia.org...
vardas0antras

Con

Gracias (thank you in Spanish) for the debate!

My opponent, the instigator, has the burden to prove that women have equal rights and that they're not the same as men. In short I have to refute only one of these statements however Ill try to tackle both propositions.

=====Women Rights=====
Obviously some women do have equal rights and some don't. Now more women do not have equal rights, meaning that the correct statement would be that women don't have equal rights.

Sources to prove that more women don't have equal rights:
http://www.care2.com...
http://www.fao.org...
http://media.www.ramcigar.com...
http://www.meforum.org...
http://www.suite101.com...
http://www.thestar.com...
http://www.globalissues.org...

Clearly more women don't have equal rights therefore my opponent is incorrect.

=====Are not the same=====

If women are humans but are not the same as men because they have trivial physical differences.
Then she should not be considered a female:
http://www.foxnews.com...

I just felt like also adding this:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

However she is considered female meaning that its ridiculous to suggest that few physical differences would make someone different.

In conclusion women are the same as men just like one man is the same to another despite deformities, race, age and disabilities.
Debate Round No. 1
SoSilly

Pro

Just to clarify on 'rights' I didn't mean implemented rights. I meant they are also human and have the same 'right' to have the basics humanity needs. This is demonstrated quite well by Maslow's hierarchy of needs. [1]

And women are a lot more different to men than each man is to each other on average physically and mentally. [2]

I'm in a rush so I'm sorry if I've only skimmed over on my point. I will go more in depth on this next round.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org...'s_hierarchy_of_needs

2. http://en.wikipedia.org...
vardas0antras

Con

=====Implemented rights=====
I do not understand what you're saying but let me remind you your position:
According to the title and your first round, your argument is that women have equal rights to men,
however I showed that not all women have equal rights. So who is the winner? The one who's position
is supported by more women, I showed that most women don't have equal rights hence I win. I am expecting my opponent to run away from his impossible burden, before you do, I'd like to remind you that what has been established can't be changed for example your title.

=====Women are the same to men=====
I don't have to refute this to win but I gave it a shot and so far my argument from round 1 is enduring.
Debate Round No. 2
SoSilly

Pro

SoSilly forfeited this round.
vardas0antras

Con

Arguments extended vote Con
Debate Round No. 3
SoSilly

Pro

------------------------------------------------Rights of women--------------------------------------------------------

Just to clarify on 'rights' I didn't mean implemented rights. I meant they are also human and have the same 'right' to have the basics human

' =====Women Rights=====
Obviously some women do have equal rights and some don't. Now more women do not have equal rights, meaning that the correct statement would be that women don't have equal rights. '

When I say right to have I mean 'should be allowed to have'.
====================================================================
I'm not talking about implemented legal rights, let me make this clear. I mean rights in the sense of; (In descending order of perceived importance)

Physiologically;

'Breathing, food, water, sex, sleep, homoeostasis and excretion.' - They have the right to do these.

Safety needs;

'Security of: Body, employment, resources, morality, the family, health, property' - They have a right to have these.

Love/belonging;

'Friendship, family, sexual intimacy' - They have a right to have these.

Esteem;

'Self-esteem, confidence, achievement, respect of others, respect by others' - They have a right to have these.

Self-actualisation;

'Morality, creativity, spontaneity, problem solving, lack of prejudice, acceptance of facts' - They have a right to have these.
[1] [2]
====================================================================
Explain to me how they don't have the same rights to these as men do to these? I believe they have the same rights.
====================================================================

----------------------------------------------Differences of women----------------------------------------------------

First of all I could suggest sexual orientation is a clear demonstration of the difference of the sexes. [3]
====================================================================
Definitions;

Heterosexuality - Attracted to the opposite sex. Men are attracted to women, women are attracted to men. [4]

Homosexuality - Attracted to the same sex. Men are attracted to men, women are attracted to women. [5]

Bisexuality - Attracted to both sexes - Men are attracted to men and women, women are attracted to men and women. [6]

The first two demonstrate that there is a difference, the last one shows that humans are similar.
====================================================================
Explain to me how there is sexual orientation like this with out a difference between men and women.
====================================================================

---------------------------------------------------Conclusion---------------------------------------------------------

That demonstrates both my points with clarity, now it is time for you to negate those points.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. http://en.wikipedia.org...'s_hierarchy_of_needs

2. http://en.wikipedia.org...'s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg

3. http://en.wikipedia.org...

4. http://en.wikipedia.org...

5. http://en.wikipedia.org...

6. http://en.wikipedia.org...
vardas0antras

Con

Equal rights:
"Women have Equal right" is not the same as "When I say right to have I mean 'should be allowed to have'.". I already said that "I am expecting my opponent to run away from his impossible burden" however that ain't happening because
"what has been established can't be". Indeed that is enough for me to win. If you wanted to debate "Should women and men be allowed to have equal rights" you should have said so.
For this reason I urge a Con vote.

Difference of women:
I don't see how your arguments effects my points. Yes men and women are similar but by your definition a man is the same to another man. Obviously a man is technically very different from another man but by your definition they're the same. Wherefore there must be a great difference which would make them not the same.

Lets forget what I just said:
Furthermore you forgot about asexual's are they not to be neither women or men?

Please be more clear in the next round because I'm starting not to understand myself ! :)

That's it folks!
Debate Round No. 4
SoSilly

Pro

Since I believe there has been no 'real' argument so far I have decided to summarise my points and further clarify them. I will start with...

--------------------------------------------------Burden of proof-----------------------------------------------------------

You keep mentioning impossible burden, but I'm not sure you understand what it means. Once I've made a valid point it is your turn to make an argument against it, which I have yet to see. By 'impossible burden' I assume you are referring to the 'burden' you mentioned in your first round; The 'burden of proof'. To clarify what this means I will use the quote

'When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on him or her making a claim. This burden does not demand a mathematical or strictly logical proof (although many strong arguments do rise to this level such as in logical syllogisms), but rather demands an amount of evidence that is established or accepted by convention or community standards.' [1]

I believe this demonstrated how I have met the 'burden of proof', now it is time for you to meet your 'burden of proof'.

You have not argued to how women don't have the same 'rights' as men. I believe that men and women have the same natural 'rights' and have given my reasoning, now you have to explain why you think it's wrong.

I have shown to you that men and women aren't the same, in the fact of sexual orientation. This shows that there can be exclusion of one gender or another in 'attraction'. To clarify on this I will define my meaning of 'attraction' as "an enduring pattern of or disposition to experience sexual, affectional, physical or romantic attractions to persons"... of either gender. You now have to refute these points. As you might like to say 'the impossible burden' is now yours. [1]

------------------------------------------You disagree with natural rights?-------------------------------------------------

The definition of rights is; 'Rights are legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people, according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory. Rights are of essential importance in such disciplines as law and ethics, especially theories of justice and deontology.' [2]

Then there are Natural rights which are; 'Natural rights are rights which are derived from nature. They are universal; that is, they apply to all people, and do not derive from the laws of any specific society. They exist necessarily, inhere in every individual, and can't be taken away. For example, it has been argued that humans have a natural right to life. They're sometimes called moral rights or inalienable rights.' [3]

The rights I am debating for here are natural rights. You have to explain why you disagree with why men and women have the same natural 'rights'.

----------------------------------------You disagree that women aren't the same?------------------------------------------

You have to also explain why men and women *are* the same. They either *are* or *aren't*, using the law of the excluded middle [4]. I've given my reasoning for aren't, but so far you've only said that men aren't the same also. Sexual orientation shows how men can be classed as similar enough to be grouped as men and it shows the same for women. It also shows how they can be placed in different classes. This shows men and women are not the same, and you have to argue against that.

----------------------------------------------------Devil's advocate-----------------------------------------------------------

In the next round I expect all you will do is make a 'strawman' [5] based on, 'you haven't met your impossible burden', 'you can't change what has been established', your argument to get around proving men and women are the same relying on your fallacy against my first argument which would prove my 'argument' incorrect at least partially.

I have shown how I've met this 'burden' however. I have also kept true to what has been established and changed nothing. I have given 'proof' for all my arguments, and you have given non. This also means you will have to argue that men and women *are* the same.

It is still on you to provide the 'burden of proof' which you have been avoiding since round one. I don't believe you can do any such thing. Therefore I believe my argument stands as correct and yours as incorrect.

-----------------------------------------------------Closing speech-------------------------------------------------------

I'd like to thank con for agreeing to debate this point, even though their position seems like a losing battle to me. They didn't go with out a fight, and I had fun arguing my point, I hope they had fun too . What I believe will lose them the argument as I stated previously is the lack of realisation that he now has a 'burden of proof'.

For all my points shown and clarified above I would like so say vote pro, it's the only way to go. ;)

--------------------------------------------------------Citations-------------------------------------------------------------

1. http://en.wikipedia.org...

2. http://en.wikipedia.org...

3. http://en.wikipedia.org...

4. http://en.wikipedia.org...

5. http://en.wikipedia.org...
vardas0antras

Con

I don't see why I should bother to write long paragraphs in a debate where my opponent is dishonest. No I do not disagree that all people should have equal rights. The first round and the title made it obvious that you argued that women have equal rights not that women should have equal rights. You saw this mistake and now you are trying to run away "The rights I am debating for here are natural rights" that is not what the title says!

I did enjoy this debate but ignoring this fatal mistake and hoping that I would forget about it is plain... I have nothing else to say because that's enough for me to win.

Thank you,
VAntras
Debate Round No. 5
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by SoSilly 6 years ago
SoSilly
Except I made clear which right I was arguing for and you ignored it... You're running from an impossible argument, I appreciate that.
Posted by vardas0antras 6 years ago
vardas0antras
I will make no further comments concerning this debate. Thank you for not giving up, no it would be better if you knew when you lost but eh what can I do except give up.
Posted by vardas0antras 6 years ago
vardas0antras
Same link and I think the same sentence:
"or as legal rights either at a national level or within international law.[3]"
Posted by SoSilly 6 years ago
SoSilly
'Such entitlements can exist as shared norms of actual human moralities, as justified moral norms or natural rights supported by strong reasons' - First round, first link, second line.
Posted by vardas0antras 6 years ago
vardas0antras
Where? Where did you specify that in the first round?
Posted by SoSilly 6 years ago
SoSilly
It was mentioned in the first round. Your realisation's too late.
Posted by vardas0antras 6 years ago
vardas0antras
'It's not too late'
After the first round its too late.
Posted by SoSilly 6 years ago
SoSilly
It's not too late, it was also included in my previous points, you just ignored it. Even in the last round you ignored it. Ignoring a point doesn't make it go away you know. LOL
Posted by vardas0antras 6 years ago
vardas0antras
"I did refer to natural rights in my last round,"
That is too late, nothing more needs to be said.
"misguided assumption"
I read what you wrote and debated it, it was your duty to be clear because one can read this in two different ways, obviously I abused this ability of mine and won the debate.
Posted by SoSilly 6 years ago
SoSilly
I did refer to natural rights in my last round, and I never mentioned any other form of rights. It seems your misguided assumption made an assum out of you but not me. ;)
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by gavin.ogden 6 years ago
gavin.ogden
SoSillyvardas0antrasTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Vote Placed by SuperRobotWars 6 years ago
SuperRobotWars
SoSillyvardas0antrasTied
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