The Instigator
Pro (for)
1 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
6 Points

Women "pastors/preachers" are rebellious to God, for taking on a man's position.

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/8/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,801 times Debate No: 34608
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (23)
Votes (2)




First round is for acceptance. 2-3 round are for rebuttals/arguments. Final round is for conclusions (don't start a new argument).


No Profanity. (No trolling).
Be respectful.

Best wishes to my opponent! :)


I accept -
I am hoping the debate goes promptly as I am taking a vacation without computer on Thursday.
Debate Round No. 1


Thank you for accepting my challenge. But also thank you for asking to take the challenge as well. And I understand your situation. No worries.

I personally will be using the English Standard Version Bible (ESV). You may use whichever you like.

I. Timothy 2:11-14,

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then eve; and ad was not deceived, but the wan was deceived and became a transgressor.

Pastor/preacher is someone that leads the Church (gives the messages from Gods Holy Word).

Now I understand that this verse was pertaining to when the men would go to the temple ad heed to the teachings while the women remained home to teach the children (ween them). The husband would go home and share all he learned with his wife so she too may grow, but if the husband neglected this or she was widowed she had no choice but to go. But even when she went it was still required of her to remain quiet in a submissive learning soul. Today, it still applies to the women.. So how can a woman remain quiet in a learning submissive spirit if she's preaching at a church congregation??

Also, Paul stated that women are not permitted to teach with authority to a man. Why is this? As you see on to the next couple of verses, Adam was made first then eve and Adam didnt get deceived first eve did.. So it strictly shows the danger if a wan is preaching or teaching may be devices or mislead people just as eve did to Adam. It's not to say that women can't hve a teaching class, but should only teach other women starting from the youngest to the eldest. Yes, men can learn from women, but how is this usually?? By a woman's lifestyle, how she says things, how she caretakers of the home or children things of that sort. Her opinion.

God appointed throughout the Old Testament nothing but men to do His work. The only woman that took leadership was Deborah and that's only because the men wouldn't take the lead to be the judge at that time. But what was the outcome with Deborah as the judge??

Ephesians 5:22-31... (Read)

Lets take a look at it. Man is head of the wife and is commanded to love his wife. Woman is commanded to be submissive to her husband. Marriage symbolizes the man as Christ (the groom) and the Church (the Bride)... Jesus leads guides and protects His sheep/herd... The Church submits to The Shepard/ groom... If Jesus is represented as the man loving and shepherding His Church and the Church is represented as the woman in submission, then how can a woman lead the Church if she's supposed to submit and be the bride?? And why is the man not shepherding the flock that he loves (which God appointed him to do)??

Can you explain why a woman feels the need to desire to be in a mans position when she already has one to follow but refuses it?? Also why do men permit women to do this especially those who know this is wrong?? Explain to me why you think it's okay please.


PRO states
Women "pastors/preachers" are rebellious to God, for taking on a man's position.

I believe that God is sovereign, and that he can call people to serve as He chooses.
Let's look at scripture, culture, history and calling to make this point.

Before moving to these arguments we need some definitions

PRO's definition for pastor/preacher is acceptable
Pastor/preacher is someone that leads the Church (gives the messages from Gods Holy Word).

Rebellious : a : given to or engaged in rebellion
b : of, relating to, or characteristic of a rebel or rebellion

I will be using the word usurp for "to seize or exercise authority or possession wrongfully" which is implied by PRO\s phrase "for taking on a man's position."

With those definitions I want to ask a few questions.
The debate in conservative, Bible believing churches usually focuses on the roles of teaching (preaching to the congregation) and organizational leadership (who is the senior pastor).

In scripture these roles of leadership and speaking God's word have different titles.
Old Testament
prophets - hear and speak God's words
judges - lead in military, political, judicial matters
shepherds - (figuratively) not the sheep herders
kings & queens, elders, advisers, officers, overseers and many more
New Testament

If we find even one instance in scripture of God calling a woman these roles you must abandon your simplistic view that God does not call women.

1. Roles of leadership in scripture are not always gender defined!
2. Roles of teaching are not always gender defined!
Here are some OT examples of God calling women to His work.
Miriam (Ex 15:20) was a prophetess
Deborah (Judges 4:4) was a prophetess and judge
Esther (Esther 4:15-17) called the people to fast and as queen commanded her uncle.
Anna (Luke 2:36) was a prophetess.
Here are some NT examples
Various women (Luke 8:1-3) who are part of the ministry and had money for support.
Older women are to teach (Titus 2:3)
Euodia and Syntyche (Php 4:2) worked with Paul and Clement.
Leading women (Acts 17:4)
Prominent Greek women (Acts 17:12)

God calls women to lead and speak God's word.
This are the exact roles you have defined for a preacher/pastor
Let's look at some cultural issues.
- the cultures in Biblical time were run by men.
- Women as prophets and leaders would be less acceptable in those cultures than today.
If we find variation in the example of scripture it may be that cultural or situational issues are important as well.

Look at this example -
If we are in a culture where women are not allowed to lead anywhere or speak out publicly about anything, the act of taking leadership or speaking out would be rebellious IN THAT CULTURE, and the idea of “live at peace with all men” (Rom 12:18 ) would impose restrictions.

If women in ministry is even partially a cultural issue, then changes in culture may require that we evaluate what parts of the issue are God’s unchanging nature and will, and what parts are determined by culture.

- if it is exclusively cultural - it changes with culture.
- if it is exclusively God’s will / character it will not change with culture.
- It may also be partially cultural. (like live at peace with all men)

Below is a good summary of the women in Luke/Acts


This is evidence that
1. God calls women to ministry and
2. Some of the difficulties with women in ministry are cultural.

Maybe the clearest commendation of gender equality is Gal 3:26-29)
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

One last consideration is that God continues to call men and women to ministry.

Let me work through PRO's questions and statements briefly.
PRO references 1 Timothy 2:11-14 - Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
There may be all sorts of reasons why Paul wanted to make clear that this was his position (as opposed to the revealed will of God) I believe this is like 1 Cor 7 where Paul makes clear the difference between His advice and God's command. Look at verse 9 - Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly
This is clearly Paul showing his opinion apart from God's command.
PRO stated "Now I understand that this verse was pertaining to . . ."
I would need some references or documentation for that. I hear too many people claiming some Biblical position only to find out that their "cultural reference is only bad church hearsay sort of like an urban legend.
PRO stated "God appointed throughout the Old Testament nothing but men to do His work"
This is incorrect!
in 2 Kings 22:15 we read about Huldah - She said to them, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel, ‘Tell the man who sent you to me, thus says the Lord,

This was not because there were no men to consult. She was the best.
PRO asks with distain "what was the outcome with Deborah as the judge??"
I suggest she read the book of Judges and see what happend when men were in charge.
My particular favourites include the last 3 chapters of Judges.
Those were bad times and only a few listened to and obeyed God.
PRO refers to Eph 5:22 and following. This is a great scripture for our debate.
22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
The reason I love this scripture for this debat is because it is about authority.
The husband being the head of the wife has nothing to do with the roles of leading and prophecy.
When I speak as a Bible teacher I am teaching from the authority of God's word - not my own.
When I give a word of prophecy (hearing from God and speaking as He commands) it is not my authority.
When I lead God's people in worship or prayer it is not my own authority. It is God's Spirit (on my best days) and people (hopefully) see less of me, and more of Jesus.
Back to women in ministry or any role to which God has called them.
If a lady cop pulls me over it is not her authority, but the authority she speaks for.
If I say she should be silent because the Bible says so (in her police role) she is right to arrest me.
In the family, God has appointed the husband as the head of the wife.
The pastor is not the ruler of the church, Jesus is.
I love Jesus' words of instruction in Mark 10:42-25 42 Calling them to Himself, Jesus *said to them, “You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. 43 But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; 44 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
We pastors serve under the authority of Jesus.
We are bond slaves.
We do not exercise authority like the rulers of the gentiles.
Blessings - I look forward to the next round

Debate Round No. 2


TULIP forfeited this round.


Since PRO forfeited round 3 I will simply restate my position and reflect on the scriptures chosen by PRO

1. God is free to call anyone He wants!
2. If there is even one example of God calling a woman to a ministry then PRO fails.
Ministry examples here will be limited to teaching, prophecy or leadership.

I gave a host of examples in the Old Testament and New Testament of God calling women to ministry in round 2.

PRO gave no response to these so she must agree :-).

Briefly, I want to respond to the scriptures chosen by PRO
1 Timothy 2 and Ephesians 5:22-31

1 Timothy 2 is exactly about our subject. Paul here makes clear that these are his personal views.
Paul states "I urge", "I am telling the truth", "I want", "I do not allow a woman to teach"
If we take 1 Tim 2:9 seriously we have to forbid "braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments". I suspect PRO would say these issues are cultural, or Paul's personal opinion. Then we move to verses 11 & 12 and she wants to take them as a command from God for all time.

Ephesians 5:22-33 is a comparison of "Christ as head of the church" to "husband as head of the wife"
This is a great scripture. It has no application here. It deals with relationships between husband and wife. It is not about God calling leaders for his church.

A few stray thoughts to consider about the culture in the first century AD.
1. Women in ministry in the Roman and Greek pagan religions were often priestesses and prostitutes.
Paul may have had all kinds of reasons to distance Christian ministry from this popular image of women.
2. Cultural issues may influence fitness for ministry.
Women were seldom taught to read.
Women were often not allowed to own property.
In some cultures, stray women may have been treated like stray cows or goats . . . If you find one you can keep it.
For this and many other cultural reasons it may have been rare to find women in ministry.

God can call anyone He wants to ministry!
We have many Biblical examples of God calling women.
Debate Round No. 3


I appreciate the time and effort that my opponent put to use here in where I lacked.

I still hold to my view of women not taking the position as a pastor/preacher of a church congregation because her place is not to lead but to teach the other women younger than her. Her place is within the home. And I do believe Paul was being literal of women not teaching men. I do believe that if we take this literal we should the rest (women not being concerned with how she dresses or appeals herself but be concerned for her innerness of heart, because that's really what matters more).. Proverbs 31 is a prime example of what women were called for and today that's not being done.

Because proverbs 31 isn't being done that's why there's so many women preaching/pastoring in the church and Biblically that's incorrect. Paul explicitly stated this in I. Timothy 2 but people refuse to accept it.

(Voters voting, vote fairly and honestly. If I was voting I'd vote con because he actually did a great job but that doesn't mean I agree with where he stands in this belief though). Best wishes con! :) God bless!


Thanks to PRO for round 4
As far as the debate goes she has not really answered any of my arguments from round 2 or 3.
Her rules from round 1 of no new arguments in round 4 makes her proverbs 31 references out of order.

I would like to respond to her proverbs 31 reference, and then respond to her closing statements.

Prov 31:16 She considers a field and buys it; From her earnings she plants a vineyard
This is a picture of a working woman.
This woman would not have been allowed in Greek or Roman first century culture. (women not allowed to own property in their own name) I don't know enough about first century Jewish culture to know if this Prov 31 woman would be offensive to most men in Jesus' day. It is exactly this kind of woman that Paul was speaking against. She did not fit his culture.

Prov 31:21-22 She is not afraid of the snow for her household, For all her household are clothed with scarlet. 22 She makes coverings for herself; Her clothing is fine linen and purple.

This woman does not fit in Paul's culture for her "costly garments for herself and her family. (see 1 Tim 2:9)

As we continue through Prov 31: 25-26 we see "Strength and dignity are her clothing, And she smiles at the future. 26 She opens her mouth in wisdom, And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue."
Wait, does it even say she is TEACHING kindness.

I am happy that PRO brought up Prov 31. It is a great argument for women who lead and teach.

Let me respond to PRO's round 4

>>I still hold to my view . . .
You can hold to your preference,
but you have no Biblical warrant to claim that God can't call women to serve.
He can and He does.
We even have Biblical examples.

>> her place is not to lead but to teach the other women younger than her.
This opinion has no place as a scriptural command.
It has very little place in our North American culture.
It would fit well in Taliban controlled Afghanistan. If I were pastoring a Christian church there I would 100% agree that cultural factors need to be considered and women would have to be kept "in there place" to fit with culture.
This would place a non Biblical hardship on any woman, and the Prov 31 woman would probably be in danger of death by stoning or beheading.

>> Her place is within the home.
Not according to Prov 31

>>I do believe Paul was being literal
I agree - Paul was very literal here.
In his setting he says "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man"
In hes setting he said this was his position.
If we were in the 1st century Roman world I would probably see the wisdom of it

It was a cultural concession, and in our culture with woman leaders we should not try to push them into 1st century Roman culture.

I notice in PRO's profile pic that she is wearing a necklace (silver I think).
It is hard to understand her strong stance on "no women in ministry" with her desire to teach (debate against an older man) and wearing jewelry. Those factors alone show she does not understand Paul's position that she claims, but does not follow.

>>(Voters voting, vote fairly and honestly. If I was voting I'd vote con because he actually did a great job but that doesn't mean I agree with where he stands in this belief though). Best wishes con! :) God bless!

One great part about serving Jesus is that he calls us to serve in the way that He wants.

The Bible allows us to drink alcohol. I do not drink at all. This is not because the Bible makes it a rule for all people in all times. It is because I am called to serve in a culture (Atlantic Canada Baptist) where drinking would cause me problems. I also work with many addicts and people who have been hurt by drinking. God calls me to not drinking for His own reasons. My obedience brings blessings I may never understand.

Back to women in ministry.
God allows it.
He calls some.
There are cultures where it is rare or even inappropriate (as seen by God not calling them to serve there)

Blessings to Pro for the fun debate.
This is the first time I have taken this position and it has strengthened my view that God calls anyone He chooses.
Debate Round No. 4
23 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by leojm 3 years ago
When I was 18 I tryed to be a preacher at a church, mmmmmm didn't work out to well. I made people laugh and it wasn't serious at all. So I got kicked out lolz.
Posted by gordonjames 3 years ago
>> Notice how objections come not from scripture but personal opinion.

I'm not sure you read the debate.

PRO referenced 3 scriptures.
1 Timothy 2:11-14 - Paul states this is his opinion
Ephesians 5:22-31 - great scripture nothing to do with ministry qualifications
Prov 31 - this praises a woman for working outside the home,
and earning the respect of even the elders.
It even praises her for teaching wisdom and kindness
(Remember, Proverbs is about teaching wisdom)
"She opens her mouth in wisdom, And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue."

The CON position referenced more than a dozen scriptures.

The clear teaching of scripture is that God is sovereign and can call whoever he wants.
Posted by Harbinger 3 years ago
Notice how objections come not from scripture but personal opinion. The scriptures plain as day says the woman stays silent in the church and in public. Only at home do they ask questions and voice their concerns or beliefs.
Posted by gordonjames 3 years ago
I want to apologize to Tulip.
I re read my round 4 comments and realized the part about jewelry sounded mean.
It was supposed to sound light and funny.

My mistake.
Posted by Buddamoose 3 years ago
I understand the scriptures you are referring to, the pastoral scriptures of Timothy 1 & 2 and Titus. In fact you are likely most referring to:

"(8)I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. (9)I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, (10)but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. (11)A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. (12)I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. (13)For Adam was formed first, then Eve. (14)And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. (15)But women will be kept safe through childbirth, if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."

Timothy 2:8-15

Here are the objections i have to these scriptures though:

1) The pastoral scriptures were most likely written, not by Paul, but another unknown author that was by proxy writing as Paul. This is evidenced by the contradictions present within these scriptures to the scriptures written by Pail himself most notable in Galatians where Paul states that:

"In Christ there is no man or woman" and yet, here we have somebody that is supposed to be writing on behal of Paul, directly contradicting that, with dictations of what women and men are to do?

2) You have to factor in what was happening historically at the time these scriptures were written as well. Paul, in his scriptures, Ephesians and Galatians, was addressing two specific peoples, and the heretical sects that were springing up within those cities. So the tone and language used in the scriptures, takes on a much sterner stance. He is essentially proclaiming what is and is not allowed firmly to these peoples, as a counter to these heretical religions.

this is just what I recall from various studies and offhand knowledge, so I could be wrong, dont think I'm off ba
Posted by TULIP 3 years ago
What happened in the garden of Eden?? Who did what first and why would Paul say that women should not teach a man?? Read the Scripture.. If I'm wrong then God will show me but if what I'm haring is correctly Biblical I pray God show you and others who disagree with this view..
Posted by Buddamoose 3 years ago
Ok, so women are allowed to preach, only to other women, but not men, and can not actually be in charge of the congregation itself?

I know this isnt relevant to the actual debate, but is there any reason why women arent qualified to teach men? Are they incapable in some manner to do so?
Posted by TULIP 3 years ago
People definitely misunderstand me.. I did not say women aren't allowed to preach at all.. It's recorded in Titus I Peter and II Timothy that women can teach other women. But not men. Women aren't permitted to be a pastor.. Read the Scriptures please and keep them in context..
Posted by Buddamoose 3 years ago
*I didnt realize only men were allowed to preach about god 0_o
Posted by Buddamoose 3 years ago
Say what? I didn't realize
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by rross 3 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: I just have to laugh a bit at this. If you really think that woman can't teach or speak with authority to a man, how can a woman ever win a debate against a man? Pro's position was doomed from the start. Assuming the Bible as an authority, I thought Pro's round 2 was strong and convincing. However, Con's reply was excellent, and I was looking forward to seeing how Pro would handle it. But how could Pro disagree with it, lol, without contradicting herself? So, finally, yes, I am convinced that women can be called to leadership positions in the Church. Conduct for the jewelry comment which was an ad hominem attack. Con apologized in the comments, which was nice, but comments can't be taken into account when voting.
Vote Placed by Noumena 3 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: "If I was voting I'd vote con"-- Looks like a concession.