The Instigator
Reigon
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
MartiansOnVenus
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Women registering for Selective Service

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/12/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 387 times Debate No: 92646
Debate Rounds (4)
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Reigon

Pro

Round 1: Introduction
Round 2: Argument
Round 3: Rebuttal
Round 4: Conclusion

I support requiring women to register for Selective Service.
MartiansOnVenus

Con

I do not support women being forced to register for the Selective Service. In fact, I do not support the Selective Service agency at all. Forcing anybody at any age to leave their homes and families to go off to a foreign nation to fight people who aren't actively attacking the nation is an absolutely barbaric system that needs to be stopped. Not since World War Two has there been a time in which Americans were in any real danger of being attacked. However, the system remained, likely due to the paranoia during the Cold War and after 9/11. Not once, however, did a Soviet bomb California, and while there have been terrorist attacks after 9/11 in America, the total number of people killed by violent jihadists since 9/11 has been 95, including the recent Orlando nightclub shooting. This means that yesterday, there were more deaths caused by violent right wing shooters than there were deaths caused by terrorists. (1)
America does not need more soldiers than they already have.

(1) http://securitydata.newamerica.net...
Debate Round No. 1
Reigon

Pro

Well Round 1 was just suppose to be an introduction but w/e guess we don't need any structure for this debate.

Requiring women to register for Selective Service like their male counterpart promotes equality between both genders. Women have recently been allowed to serve in any jobs in the military (combat roles) so wouldn't it be equality for women to register for Selective Service as well?

No one actually enjoys having Selective Service System. Selective Service is a very cheap insurance, if the need ever arises the US can have quick access to available manpower to fill the needs of military recruitment.

However there is a huge difference between a draft and Selective Service, a draft actually forces individuals to serve in the military while registering for Selective Service simply means the Government can call you up if necessary. There wasn't been a draft since 1973, it's unlikely to ever come back given the cost of military conflicts in this current day and time.

In a perfect world we wouldn't need insurance right? Well that's why car Insurance, life insurance, medical insurance etc exist. Selective Service is like an insurance, we hope it never has to come to that but if need be we will have some form of coverage if a necessity arises.

"Forcing anybody at any age to leave their homes and families to go off to a foreign nation to fight people who aren't actively attacking the nation is an absolutely barbaric system that needs to be stopped."

You're very right it's an inhumane system that should be stopped. However it is a necessity, what if a conflict actually arises that puts the US in danger? Well without Selective Service the military would be delayed in drawing necessary manpower to defend the US. You have to understand if politicians actually impose the draft it'd be political suicide unless it is actually a legitimate reason.

"Not since World War Two has there been a time in which Americans were in any real danger of being attacked.""
We had to draft 11,535,000 men to fight WWII, does it mean all of them faced combat or were deployed? No.
Again there is a difference between the draft and Selective Service.

"Not once, however, did a Soviet bomb California, and while there have been terrorist attacks after 9/11 in America, the total number of people killed by violent jihadists since 9/11 has been 95, including the recent Orlando nightclub shooting. This means that yesterday, there were more deaths caused by violent right wing shooters than there were deaths caused by terrorists. (1)
America does not need more soldiers than they already have."

Selective Service has nothing to do with violent jihadists or the recent Orlando shooting, we fought two wars Afghanistan and Iraq with an all volunteer force. We did not have to use Selective Service to draft men as enough men and women volunteered to serve in the military. Again Selective Service is a very cheap insurance, it doesn't mean there will actually be a draft. But if we ever need one Selective Service will be there.

"http://securitydata.newamerica.net...;
Your source has nothing to do with the topic.

Sources:
https://www.sss.gov...
http://www.nationalww2museum.org...
MartiansOnVenus

Con

"In a perfect world we wouldn't need insurance right? Well that's why car Insurance, life insurance, medical insurance etc exist. Selective Service is like an insurance, we hope it never has to come to that but if need be we will have some form of coverage if a necessity arises."

The primary difference here is that car and health insurance only gives you money to help you go buy a new car or pay your medical bills or whatever. The Selective Service is a type of insurance that switches money for people's lives...

"You're very right it's an inhumane system that should be stopped. However it is a necessity, what if a conflict actually arises that puts the US in danger? Well without Selective Service the military would be delayed in drawing necessary manpower to defend the US. You have to understand if politicians actually impose the draft it'd be political suicide unless it is actually a legitimate reason."

If they'll never use the soldiers in Selective Service, which is basically a draft with all the paperwork filled out ahead of the time, then why should it exist? Sure, it's good to have some of them, like with money in the bank or being insured, but these are people, with loved ones who don't want to hear about them being destroyed in some sort of raid...

"We had to draft 11,535,000 men to fight WWII, does it mean all of them faced combat or were deployed? No.
Again there is a difference between the draft and Selective Service."

No, not all of them faced combat. But they all could have. That's my main issue, the possibility. Gambling is not a good way to decide who should be given what chance of being blown to bits... There is very little difference between the draft or selective service.

"Selective Service has nothing to do with violent jihadists or the recent Orlando shooting, we fought two wars Afghanistan and Iraq with an all volunteer force. We did not have to use Selective Service to draft men as enough men and women volunteered to serve in the military. Again Selective Service is a very cheap insurance, it doesn't mean there will actually be a draft. But if we ever need one Selective Service will be there."

Violent jihadists are, according to many people today, the greatest threat to America. They would be who the draft would be getting people to go kill if it happened today. I did not know that all soldiers during the Afghanistan and Iraq war were volunteers, but doesn't that just strengthen my point that we don't need Selective Service? In order to hunt down the group that killed over 2,000 people in New York, all we needed were people who were up for it and willing to go do it. We don't need a draft, or any standby soldiers who have already signed up against their will to go do it.
And that's what the Selective Service is, a group of standby, ready to go soldiers who didn't have a choice in the matter...
Debate Round No. 2
Reigon

Pro

"The primary difference here is that car and health insurance only gives you money to help you go buy a new car or pay your medical bills or whatever. The Selective Service is a type of insurance that switches money for people's lives..."

Selective Service is actually a very cheap insurance for the coverage it offers. Selective Service has a budget of $22,900,000 as of 2016, which as you know is a very small portion of the federal budget. Like life insurance no one actually wants to see the day they need life insurance but it's there when it's necessary. Selective Service's purpose is only "maintains information on those potentially subject to military conscription." again big difference between a draft and Selective Service.

"If they'll never use the soldiers in Selective Service, which is basically a draft with all the paperwork filled out ahead of the time, then why should it exist? Sure, it's good to have some of them, like with money in the bank or being insured, but these are people, with loved ones who don't want to hear about them being destroyed in some sort of raid..."

Let's just say sh*t hits the fan WWIII is impending, we actually need a draft.
With Selective Service the government is able to draft more efficiently helping maintain necessary manpower.
Without Selective Service the government will be severely delayed in drafting necessary recruits, as a result our military personnel will be in even more danger defending the United Sates of America without enough manpower to fulfill missions.
Without a draft at all, the military is unable to defend our country as we don't have enough manpower to do so.

No one actually wants WWIII to happen, but no one can predict the future either. This is a very radical scenario, like life insurance what if a healthy 40 year old mother or father passes away with a family to take care of? It's not what we'd expect to happen but that's what life is full of surprises, with life insurance the family won't go bankrupt and live in the streets as a result of a death. It may be just money to you but money pays for the roof you live under, the food you consume, the doctor you see etc.

"No, not all of them faced combat. But they all could have. That's my main issue, the possibility. Gambling is not a good way to decide who should be given what chance of being blown to bits... There is very little difference between the draft or selective service."

"Could have" is very broad, Student X could've passed the test he needed to graduate HS but he didn't get it? Life is full of risks, the draft and the goal of Selective Service is immoral yes but it's a necessity as I have shown above.
The allies could not have not have won WWII without a draft, would you rather surrender to the central powers who drafted men? Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan was not nice to the countries they invaded.

There is a HUGE difference between the draft AND Selective Service.

The definition of Selective Service from the site itself ""To furnish manpower to the Defense Department during a national emergency, to manage alternative service for men classified as conscientious objectors, and to register, with only a few exceptions, all male U.S. citizens and male immigrants residing in the United States who are ages 18 through 25..."

The definition of a draft: A system for selecting young men for compulsory military service, administered in the United States by the Selective Service System.

"Violent jihadists are, according to many people today, the greatest threat to America. They would be who the draft would be getting people to go kill if it happened today. I did not know that all soldiers during the Afghanistan and Iraq war were volunteers, but doesn't that just strengthen my point that we don't need Selective Service? In order to hunt down the group that killed over 2,000 people in New York, all we needed were people who were up for it and willing to go do it. We don't need a draft, or any standby soldiers who have already signed up against their will to go do it.
And that's what the Selective Service is, a group of standby, ready to go soldiers who didn't have a choice in the matter..."

Which people? People may view that way but like I said we fought two wars simultaneously with an all volunteer force. We never had to implement a draft to combat terrorism, our government hasn't considered it either.
The War on Terror does not correlate with Selective Service.

"I did not know that all soldiers during the Afghanistan and Iraq war were volunteers"
It's quite important we have not had a draft since 1973.

Al Qaeda terror attacks in 9/11 killed 2996 people, it actually sparked patriotism. If you went to NYC following the attack you will see men and women packed around the recruiting center waiting to enlist.

It does not prove your point, like I said the War on Terror does not correlate with Selective Service. No one ever proposed implementing the draft to combat terrorism.
"We don't need a draft, or any standby soldiers who have already signed up against their will to go do it.
And that's what the Selective Service is, a group of standby, ready to go soldiers who didn't have a choice in the matter..."

Let's use the insurance example again, you have medical insurance but you haven't needed to even visit a doctor for 5 years now. So you cancel your medical insurance but what if you somehow wound up needing surgery? That's Selective Service, we haven't had a draft since 1973 but what if a scenario arises that causes it to be a necessity to defend the United States? I've explained above with a WWIII scenario.

Also "ready to go soldiers" no. The status Soldier, Marine, Airman, Sailor and Coast Guardsman are earned. I wouldn't go around calling those who register for Selective Service "ready to go Soldiers."

"who didn't have a choice in the matter"

We all do things in life that we don't voluntarily want to do. Parents work jobs they hate because they have a family to support.

Like I said in my statement above "The allies could not have not have won WWII without a draft, would you rather surrender to the central powers who drafted men? Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan was not nice to the countries they invaded. "
In WWII would you rather have drafted men to fight or would you rather surrender and let Nazi Germany do what they did during WWII? In total 56,125,262 counted people died as a result of WWII.
In China 1,324,000 military personnel died along with 10,000,000 civilians. War is quite inhumane but I'd rather have the draft to protect my country if the need arises.

As a famous quote goes
"Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it."-George Santayana
The draft is inhumane but the world is far from perfect.

Sources:
https://www.sss.gov...
https://www.sss.gov...
http://www.dictionary.com...
http://www.hitler.org...
MartiansOnVenus

Con

"Selective Service is actually a very cheap insurance for the coverage it offers. Selective Service has a budget of $22,900,000 as of 2016, which as you know is a very small portion of the federal budget. Like life insurance no one actually wants to see the day they need life insurance but it's there when it's necessary. Selective Service's purpose is only "maintains information on those potentially subject to military conscription." again big difference between a draft and Selective Service."

Well, retaining information on people potentially subject to conscription... That's just signing up for the draft ahead of time, and then playing a second layer of russian roulette to see who will have to go fight. They won't have a choice when that time comes, that's why the draft itself is an issue.

"Let's just say sh*t hits the fan WWIII is impending, we actually need a draft.
With Selective Service the government is able to draft more efficiently helping maintain necessary manpower.
Without Selective Service the government will be severely delayed in drafting necessary recruits, as a result our military personnel will be in even more danger defending the United Sates of America without enough manpower to fulfill missions.
Without a draft at all, the military is unable to defend our country as we don't have enough manpower to do so."

Well, think about it, right now, who could start World War 3 aside from us? North Korea, Russia, or someone in the Middle East. The only enemy who could pose enough of a threat against the /world/ is Russia. There's also Britain, Canada, most of Europe to fight with us. And we have the biggest military in the world, unless North Korea is to be believed. (1)(2)

"The allies could not have not have won WWII without a draft, would you rather surrender to the central powers who drafted men? Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan was not nice to the countries they invaded."

It took two bombs to end Japan's fight in World War 2. America didn't take down Germany, the Europeans did, with a small amount of help from Americans and others. They could have gotten by just fine without us.

The definition of Selective Service from the site itself ""To furnish manpower to the Defense Department during a national emergency, to manage alternative service for men classified as conscientious objectors, and to register, with only a few exceptions, all male U.S. citizens and male immigrants residing in the United States who are ages 18 through 25..."

But, no matter what they want to call it, it's still a necessity and it's still able to force those people to go to war.

"Which people? "

Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton both believe that the middle east is the largest threat to America. (3)(4)

"It does not prove your point, like I said the War on Terror does not correlate with Selective Service. No one ever proposed implementing the draft to combat terrorism."

Everyone knew they didn't need one...

"We all do things in life that we don't voluntarily want to do. Parents work jobs they hate because they have a family to support."

Parents are not being forced to go and get shot.

(1) http://www.businessinsider.com...
(2) http://www.globalsecurity.org...
(3) http://thehill.com...
(4) https://www.donaldjtrump.com...
Debate Round No. 3
Reigon

Pro

First of all thank you for providing sources.

"Well, retaining information on people potentially subject to conscription... That's just signing up for the draft ahead of time, and then playing a second layer of russian roulette to see who will have to go fight. They won't have a choice when that time comes, that's why the draft itself is an issue."

You can't sign up for something that hasn't been non-existent for decades now. Of course the draft is immoral but it is has shown to be necessary often in history, again the last draft was in 1973. There is no guarantee it'll ever come back either.
Look at Israel they're surrounded by enemies in all fronts, for the survival and existence of Israel they need to conscript Israelis citizens over the age of 18 who are Jewish, Druze or Circassian. If there was no conscription in Israel they would be overrun but hostiles in all fronts as shown in history.

"Well, think about it, right now, who could start World War 3 aside from us? North Korea, Russia, or someone in the Middle East. The only enemy who could pose enough of a threat against the /world/ is Russia. There's also Britain, Canada, most of Europe to fight with us. And we have the biggest military in the world, unless North Korea is to be believed. (1)(2)"

The world is subject to change constantly. After WWI people thought there would never be a conflict as devastating as that war, yet only 21 years later another World War erupts this time it's even more destructive than the first.
The world will not remain the same, European nations have been heading towards a decline while countries in Asia especially China has been on the rise. As you know we aren't on the friendliest terms with China, who knows we could improve our relations over time or it could deteriorate. The world economy is reliant on each other, the 2008 recession in the US also devastated other nations as well.
You overestimate the abilities of Canada and Europe.
False, China has the world's biggest military, the US however has undeniable the world's strongest current military. Does that mean we'll keep our status as the world power? There are no guarantees, we didn't rise to our status as the world power through peaceful diplomacy either.

"It took two bombs to end Japan's fight in World War 2. America didn't take down Germany, the Europeans did, with a small amount of help from Americans and others. They could have gotten by just fine without us."

Very false, it was more than just two atomic bombs to end the war with Japan. Just one example look at the Battle of Okinawa.
I never said America took down Germany on their own, actually European nations fell to Nazi Germany pretty quick look at the Blitzkrieg during WWII. Only the United Kingdoms remained free from Nazi control during WWII. And that was as a result of maintaining air dominance and geographical location which helped prevent Germany from invasion.
Look at the Invasion of Normandy and the Battle of Stalingrad. The central power lost Europe as a result of invading Russia and US intervention.
No the allies were not fine without the US, that is very incorrect knowledge of history. The US heavily favored supplying the allies during WWII as well. Once again the central power successfully invaded EVERY Ally Power European nation except for the United Kingdom.
We are getting out of topic but all nations who had relevancy to WWII had to draft men to fight. Like I said the draft is inhumane yes but often necessary at times.

"But, no matter what they want to call it, it's still a necessity and it's still able to force those people to go to war."

Selective Service does not draft men and women, they only collect data for potential conscription. And no a draft does not mean there is a war, there has been a draft during peace time as well.

"Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton both believe that the middle east is the largest threat to America. (3)(4)"

Politicians tend to promote fear mongering. It's unrealistic thinking to believe the draft will come back to combat terrorism. Once again the US fought two wars simultaneously in the Middle East without needing a draft.

"Everyone knew they didn't need one..."

Exactly. "Violent jihadists are, according to many people today, the greatest threat to America. They would be who the draft would be getting people to go kill if it happened today. "
You said this, once again there hasn't been a draft since 1973

"Parents are not being forced to go and get shot."

Who said people are going to get shot as a result of serving in the military? That's like saying because Billy drives a car he's going to get in a car crash. As a matter of fact more people die as a result of car crashes in comparison to death while deployed in the Middle East, the US military also loses more personnel as a result of car crashes. Does that mean we should ban cars?

No offense but you like so many other Americans have very limited knowledge on current events, history and the US military.

Source:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...
http://www.worldatlas.com...
http://www.history.com...
http://www.history.com...
http://www.desertsun.com...
MartiansOnVenus

Con

"You can't sign up for something that hasn't been non-existent for decades now. Of course the draft is immoral but it is has shown to be necessary often in history, again the last draft was in 1973. There is no guarantee it'll ever come back either.
Look at Israel they're surrounded by enemies in all fronts, for the survival and existence of Israel they need to conscript Israelis citizens over the age of 18 who are Jewish, Druze or Circassian. If there was no conscription in Israel they would be overrun but hostiles in all fronts as shown in history."

Israel is, like you say, surrounded by hostile nations. However, the United States is not. From what I have seen, the Draft wasn't even necessary during the forties let alone in recent times...

"The world is subject to change constantly. After WWI people thought there would never be a conflict as devastating as that war, yet only 21 years later another World War erupts this time it's even more destructive than the first."

That was a very special circumstance. If anybody else had been elected in Germany, it's doubtful that World War 2 would have reached the status it has, or would have happened at all.

"The world will not remain the same, European nations have been heading towards a decline while countries in Asia especially China has been on the rise. As you know we aren't on the friendliest terms with China, who knows we could improve our relations over time or it could deteriorate. The world economy is reliant on each other, the 2008 recession in the US also devastated other nations as well."

Yes, Europe has been heading downward in recent years. But could they really begin a war that we need to be involved in? And China, I will say, is probably the only real threat to America that could start a world war, aside from North Korea. But that isn't a reason to sign people's freedom to not join the military away... And it's doubtful that a third world war will begin in only 7 years, which is the period that Selective Service remains active for the individual who has signed up.

"You overestimate the abilities of Canada and Europe.
False, China has the world's biggest military, the US however has undeniable the world's strongest current military. Does that mean we'll keep our status as the world power? There are no guarantees, we didn't rise to our status as the world power through peaceful diplomacy either."

Europe has been able to start, keep wars going and end them so many times in history. They were able to both fend off the power of the Nazi's, and the Nazi's were part of Europe. Canada is just one of the many countries who would be on the same side of America in another large scale war, Australia is one of those as well. While there is no guarantee that we'll maintain it forever, won't we be able to for the next 7 years? There's no way that it could go from not even a sign to total takeover in such a short time. Not in America anyway.

"Very false, it was more than just two atomic bombs to end the war with Japan. Just one example look at the Battle of Okinawa."

Yes, but when they realized that bombings weren't going to stop the Japanese, they took it up to another level. Would Japan have continued had those been the first two bombs?

"Selective Service does not draft men and women, they only collect data for potential conscription. And no a draft does not mean there is a war, there has been a draft during peace time as well."

True. So, if you gave a recipe to some cannibals /just in case/ they wanted to eat you, would you be comfortable with that? And the draft's use in peace time just makes it's pointlessness even more apparent in my eyes...

"Who said people are going to get shot as a result of serving in the military? That's like saying because Billy drives a car he's going to get in a car crash. As a matter of fact more people die as a result of car crashes in comparison to death while deployed in the Middle East, the US military also loses more personnel as a result of car crashes. Does that mean we should ban cars?"

You can /choose/ to not go in a car. And just because more people die in car crashes compared to people who die after being deployed in the middle east... I mean, not as many people are put in the middle east in comparison to the amount of people who drive cars. As a matter of fact, there are more soldiers than there were soldiers deployed in the middle east. Of course more are going to crash their cars.

"No offense but you like so many other Americans have very limited knowledge on current events, history and the US military."

In all honesty, I'm not even American.
Debate Round No. 4
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