The Instigator
WorldWar2Debator
Pro (for)
Losing
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The Contender
STALIN
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

World War 2 Code Debate

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
STALIN
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/18/2014 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,360 times Debate No: 49343
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (1)

 

WorldWar2Debator

Pro

Code was a vital part of World War 2: Nazis used the Enigma, mostly for the Atlantic War, whereas Japan used it for the entire Pacific Theater.

I as Pro will be arguing that had the British not cracked Enigma, and had the American's not cracked the Japanese code, the war would've been won by the Axis forces: Britain could've (note the use of the word could've, not would've) been starved to defeat and the Japanese could've taken Midway, Pearl Harbor and then the (bit of an overstatement, but still) the entire North American continent.

Con will argue code was not significant.

First round provide case, lay the foundation etc.
STALIN

Con

I accept this debate.

I will argue that Japan would have lost WWII even if the Americans and British had not cracked the codes.

Lets begin.
Debate Round No. 1
WorldWar2Debator

Pro

Before the Enigma was cracked, Britain had trouble:
A. Fighting off the Germans in the Atlantic
B. knowing where Germany planned to strike.
As Britain was weak and needed desperate supplies, they had to rely on radar, as they had yet to crack enigma. But radar was almost inefficient: the German U-Boats were lurking in every shadow of the Atlantic, so to reach North America and return would've been amazing. Either way, had Enigma not been broken, the British would not have stopped German attacks on the surface at night and lost many a convoy.

As for the Battle of Midway, the Americans would not have sent as many aircraft carriers to Midway had they not known there was a major Japanese attack pending. Midway must've meant a lot to Japan, as they would've then taken Pearl Harbor.

My point is, code was vital, no matter which part of the globe you were on. After the cracking of Enigma, Britain's supply line finally started running smoothly, and the Japanese defeat meant the Allies knew Japan could be defeated. Prior to the defeat at Midway, Allied morale had dropped to its lowest during the war.

http://www.navy.mil....
http://www.uboataces.com...
STALIN

Con

While Pro did show that cracking the British and Japanese codes significantly helped the Allies, he failed to show that the Axis would have won the war had the Allies not cracked the codes.

I will start out by talking about the Pacific Theater.

Pro has shown that had the Americans not cracked the Japanese code giving them the information about the Japanese plan to attack the Midway Islands, they would have lost those islands as well as Hawaii.

Would Japan have won WWII if they won at Midway? Probably not.

America had:

Nearly twice the population of Japan.
Seventeen time's Japan's national income.
Five times more steel production.
Seven times more coal production.
Eighty times the automobile production.

Throughout WWII, Japan produced 17 aircraft carriers. [1]

The US on the other hand produced 141 aircraft carriers. [1]

Even if Japan defeated the US at Midway, they would have lost the war. Japan was already losing in China. Britain, China, and the United States would have eventually crushed Japan one way or another. It would simply be a matter of time.

Now I will talk about the European Theater.

My opponent points out that the German submarines were very dangerous to ships sailing to British ports. But Pro fails to prove that had the British not cracked the codes, the British would have been forced to surrender.

Also, my opponent seems to forget that the Soviet Union was also fighting the Axis in Europe.

The Soviet Union produced 105,251 tanks and self propelled guns during WWII. Germany on the other hand produced only 67,429 tanks and self propelled guns. [2]

Due to the fact that the USSR alone outproduced and outnumbered Germany, Germany would most likely have lost the war.

Sources:

[1] http://www.combinedfleet.com...

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
WorldWar2Debator

Pro

I would like to thank Con for his arguments, and make a few of my own:
1. Japan vs China
Con has claimed that Japan was losing in China. I would:
A. Like to ask how by June 4th 1942 (the day of the battle of Midway) the Japanese were losing in China.
B. Point out the Japanese had taken Nanking and Peking (now Beijing) before the war.
2. War production
Con has, I believe, prioritised war production over actual hand in hand combat. I would like to remind Con that had the men using the weapons created been too stupid and undisciplined to use them they would've been as useful as a stick. So the Soviet Union had more war production than Germany alone? I would like to point out that German factories were either hours or days apart from the warfare, while the Soviet factories were destroyed and were rebuilt on the Asian border. This meant that the weapons equipped prior to battle were mostly the only weapons used. If they were lost, you had to wait possibly weeks just to get a new gun. That is, if the Soviets weren't dead.

Another point about war production I would like to raise is that the Americans also convoyed almost 50% of Russia's supplies. Had the British not cracked Enigma, I don't think they would've reached ports such as Murmansk.

3. British surrender had they failed to crack Enigma
By a week in February/March 1941, Britain had enough supplies to survive them only a week more. Had convoys in that week failed to reach Britain's shores, Britain could've been starved into making peace and surrendered. But the Enigma was cracked around that time, so Britain knew where Doenitz, Kriegsmarine admiral, would've struck.

4. Operation Barbarossa without code
Not only did the cracking of the Enigma help Britain, but it also helped the Soviet Union. The Germans also used the Enigma for the plan to invade Soviet Russia, so the Secret Soviet Services in Britain just had to pass the decoded operation plans in Russia. Admittedly, the British noticed this only too late to save every town up to Moscow, but the defeat at Moscow, the battle of Stalingrad and the battle of Kursk were all won by the knowing of enemy forces.

5. The Battle of Midway
Admiral Chester Nimitz would not have sent all his aircraft carriers to Midway had they not known the Japanese fleet was coming, and so they would've been forced to defend wth fewer and weaker battleships. The planes on the aircraft carriers were also part of the bomber squadrons that sank the 4 aircraft carriers at Midway, so not only did the Americans successfully defend Midway, they also dealt the Imperial Navy a fatal blow from which Japan did not recover. Had the Japanese saved those carriers, it could've helped them with their conquest, leading to more raw materials, leading to more human power and of course more carriers.

So why did I have the above five points? The fate of every one of the above cases were decided by code: the cracking of the Dnigma and Japanese military code led to successive victories, which ended up with the destruction of three reigns of pure tyranny and terror. All because of codes.

I would like to thank Con for this argument and wish him luck in this and future debates! Vote Con!

Sources:
1. http://en.m.wikipedia.org...
2. http://en.m.wikipedia.org...
STALIN

Con

"Point out the Japanese had taken Nanking and Peking (now Beijing) before the war."

But Japan failed to win a quick victory in China. They suffered hundreds of thousands of casualties and never defeated the Chinese.

"By a week in February/March 1941, Britain had enough supplies to survive them only a week more. Had convoys in that week failed to reach Britain's shores, Britain could've been starved into making peace and surrendered. But the Enigma was cracked around that time, so Britain knew where Doenitz, Kriegsmarine admiral, would've struck."

But this does not prove that Britain would definitely have lost had the code not been cracked.

"Not only did the cracking of the Enigma help Britain, but it also helped the Soviet Union. The Germans also used the Enigma for the plan to invade Soviet Russia, so the Secret Soviet Services in Britain just had to pass the decoded operation plans in Russia. Admittedly, the British noticed this only too late to save every town up to Moscow, but the defeat at Moscow, the battle of Stalingrad and the battle of Kursk were all won by the knowing of enemy forces."

Yes but those three battles had nothing to do with code. The Soviets managed to defeat Germany not because they cracked any code and knew where Germany would attack. Therefore this argument is not relevant.

"Admiral Chester Nimitz would not have sent all his aircraft carriers to Midway had they not known the Japanese fleet was coming, and so they would've been forced to defend wth fewer and weaker battleships. The planes on the aircraft carriers were also part of the bomber squadrons that sank the 4 aircraft carriers at Midway, so not only did the Americans successfully defend Midway, they also dealt the Imperial Navy a fatal blow from which Japan did not recover. Had the Japanese saved those carriers, it could've helped them with their conquest, leading to more raw materials, leading to more human power and of course more carriers."

This does not prove that without America cracking the code, Japan would have won the war.

I would finally like to point out that my opponent never really proved that Japan would conquer North America had the Americans not cracked the code. He said he would in round 1.

Anyway, good debate.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by WorldWar2Debator 3 years ago
WorldWar2Debator
Sorry, my paragraph was meant to say Vote Pro!...
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Seeginomikata 3 years ago
Seeginomikata
WorldWar2DebatorSTALINTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Nice effort, but weak arguments fighting against the historic record is not the path to successful debating. Props to STALIN for always correcting uneducated people who underestimate Soviet importance in the war effort.