The Instigator
Viper-King
Pro (for)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
imabench
Con (against)
Winning
17 Points

World War III

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
imabench
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/7/2011 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,213 times Debate No: 19156
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (14)
Votes (5)

 

Viper-King

Pro

Pro and Con will choose any of the countries they want. Only 5 Countries. Pro chooses first-USA, China, Russia, North Korea,United Kingdom. This round is Lincoln Douglas Style!
1st Round: Intro
2nd,3rd,4th Round
5th Round: Wrap it up! Thanks!
imabench

Con

I choose the US, Germany, South Korea, and Japan

I stole the US because every voter here probably thinks its bullsh*t that the pro gets to choose first and went ahead and picked the 5 best countries, so I stole the US and only chose 3 other countries to make it even.....

Pro = China, North Korea, Russia, U.K.
Con = U.S., Germany, South Korea, Japan

Dont argue that me stealing the US is unfair because the fact that you assigned yourself 5 countries before the Con (me) even chose the debate, me stealing the US makes us even. If you want to debate who would win then lets debate,

Pro may state their case
Debate Round No. 1
Viper-King

Pro

* Actually No Lincoln-Douglas! Way Too Complicated!
WWIII-North Korea would first invade South Korea! We all know South Korea is no match to North Korea without the other nations. They would easily wipe out while having China. South Korea down! Japan would probably come in but don't argue that China would easily wipe out Japan! The tough part is U.S. and Germany! I will expand if necessary because lack of time! Please only talk about South Korea and Japan! Later on we will add U.S., Germany, UK, and Russia! I studied the weapon's system and I feel that South Korea & Japan can't beat China & North Korea because of their great military. I feel I need to study more about the U.S. & Germany to find a better case against them. Thank you. Con is may state his case.

Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org... , http://en.wikipedia.org... , http://en.wikipedia.org... , http://www.globalsecurity.org...
imabench

Con

You had 3 days to post your argument and you claim to be crunched on time? Alright I wont go into detail but here's how WWIII would unravel....

I agree that If World War III were to start then of all the countries listed it would probably be North Korea's fault. Now we all know of North Korea's (limited) nuclear capabilities but it would be quite possible that they would not use them against South Korea immediately. the military intervention would be a symbolic invasion just as much as it would be for an invasion for resources. If you dont believe me consider the years of economic sanctions against North Korea and the shortages of food, fuel, and even electricity that plague the nation. North Korea often is completely dark because the government has to kill the nations power to conserve what little they have. Such shortages do affect the military and their morale.

If North Korea were to start WWIII It would be because Kim Jung Il had died, his son came into power, and to solidify his legacy immediately started a military campaign against South Korea. However North Korea is very poor in resources so If they were to invade South Korea it would be to expand its own military potential so nuking every major city in South Korea would not fit well with their expansion for resources.

Even though North Korea has on one of the largest standing armies in the world they are armed with AK-47's and very little advanced weaponry, in fact their air force is still primarily Chinese and Russian aircraft left over from the 1950's. A sudden military campaign into South Korea would result in the immediate deployment of US troops already stationed there for such an event (estimated at 30,000) along with the Japanese military standing close by (estimated at 300,000) Should a north Korean campaign break out the US would also dispatch more troops to the peninsula which would result in a quick elimination of North Korean forces.

It would be at this stage that we see China enter the field of play. China would try to reinforce their North Korean communist allies to the north (why China became close friends with North Korea is not understood by the west) And thus it would be all out war between the vast but also under supplied Chinese military against a combination of South Korean forces, Japanese forces, and the current number of US forces. China is a very powerful nuclear nation but seeing as how they are only protecting their northern neighbor's sovereignty It would be unlikely that China start launching bombs against The US and Japan. The US and Japan, fearing such an attack, would also hold off on their nuclear arms deployment because that would surely react in a nuclear response from China.

You requested I not use the US so I have only used the current US troops stationed in South Korea and Japan.

Russia at this point would probably be similar to the Russia shown in Modern Warfare 2. Basically they have had a revolution where nationalism is as abundant as it was in Nazi Germany in the 1940's. So at this point they would start raising hell, however it wouldn't be in Asia.

Although Russia has had a long history of expanding to the east, in recent history Russia has always tried pushing to the west, into Europe. The new radical government may see the hostilities in the eastern Hemisphere as an opportunity to invade European countries while the US were preoccupied in the Pacific battles. Russia has a massive military but they have very little infrastructure and limited supply lines, The deployment of troops to neighboring Georgia showed how even in a small country their forces were slow and uncoordinated. Russian invasion into Europe would be very well resisted even in war torn areas of Eastern Europe. To get to say Germany they would first have to go through Ukraine, Poland, The weapon-littered remains of Yugoslavia, Belarus would also be a roadblock. Even though individually such small nations would be inferior to any military invasion, all these countries lined up into a military front resisting Russian advances into Europe would surely do a number on them.

Ill end right here so that the Pro can (hopefully) put up a more detailed argument next round but just consider these points.

1) North Korea has a large but technologically inferior military
2) They also have few resources and an inability to supply their own army WITHIN their borders
3) South Korea has a very advanced military, 30x the economic power, and spends far more on their own military then North Korea does
4) They would be fighting against combined Japan, US, and South Korean forces already stationed there that could overwhelm them
5) China and Russia would not immediately come to the aid of North Korea, it is quite possible that they dont come at all and instead just begin to occupy neighboring nations around them. Russia has even held their own sanctions against North Korea so If anyone were to come to their defense it could ONLY be China, and even then maybe.
6) There is no clear circumstance of which nation would be the first to go nuclear
7) There may be no nukes launched because of fear of a retaliation, its happened before during the cold war between Russia and the US
8) You have to consider the possibility of other nations being drawn into this massive fight, although not each nation would necessarily choose sides they would defend themselves against the attackers, whoever they may be
9) Russia has a very large army but very poor infrastructure and a poor ability to supply such an army. 80% of their economy is built on exporting resources

http://www.breitbart.com...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
http://www.americanthinker.com...
http://www.freerepublic.com...
http://www.g2mil.com...
http://www.thedailybeast.com...
http://www.spacewar.com...
http://english.pravda.ru...
Debate Round No. 2
Viper-King

Pro

, China would enter the war for sure immediately. Me as a Chinese know that China would help North Korea and China has the most people in its army (2,285,000). China has 150,000 of its troops on the Korean border. If Russia was to get into this war, it would be because South Korea threatened to destroy their S-400 war machine and destroy their other weapons in South Korea. Then Russia would come in. At least they would use S-300 & S-400 which actually could destroy North Korea if on the opposite side so there is no doubt that those war machines could easily face South Korea. I don't think America would go send more troops to help South Korea because they would ruin their trade with China which would really hurt their economy. America would not use THAT MUCH MONEY again because the Americans remember from Bush's administration. Anyways, let's get USA, Japan, UK, & Germany. USA, as I said wouldn't come over from America but maybe Japan and Guam! Don't argue with that point. Russia has a huge army and has a great ability because it has one of the largest economies in the world and a huge GDP! Therefore UK would come to our aid though much later! Japan would fight for South Korea but China's and Russia's immediate army already in Korea with many more coming would overwhelm U.S. and Japan's army there. U.S. would only send the troops in the Pacific while Japan would launch their army to South Korea NOT North Korea. Therefore UK would start to send troops in a matter of months while Germany would not also come in around the time of UK coming in! PLEASE TAKE YOUR TIME BECAUSE I WILL BE GONE TO LAKE TAHOE UNTIL TUESDAY TO WEDNESDAY! If I forfeit on accident because going on vacation, please don't post an argument because I shall be gone! Thanks!
imabench

Con

You claim that since your Chinese you know for sure that China would immediately aid North Korea, but you fail to offer any factual support of such an idea and you rest this whole idea on the fact that "Im Chinese, I know what China would do" I had to go look into the facts you provided without any sources and here is what i found.

Chinese troops on the North Korean Border = 150,000, but the reason China has so many troops along the border is not to immediately come rushing to their aid, its to keep out illegal immigrants. North Korea to China is a lot like Mexico to the US.

http://en.wihttp...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese%E2%80%93Korean_border_fence
http://www.asianresearch.org...

So China is using its massive military to keep North Koreans OUT, and consider this. You use America not wanting to harm trade with China as an excuse for not going all out in war against them, but you offer no excuse for why China would cut trade with the US just for North Korea..... Why would China protect ties to a country that supplies them with nearly all their military resources over the US which through trade brings in $1.4 trillion dollars for them.

Relations with North Korea = $4,200,000,000 = 4.2 billion
Relations with the US = $1,400,000,000,000 = 1,400 billion

http://www.iie.com...
http://www.theatlantic.com...

So If common sense prevails, China would not immediately cut all trade to the US just to protect North Korea. As for China's entire military, Recent negotiations with them have revealed that China spends 10x less on their military what America spends, and the money they do spend is to try to modernize their military

http://english.chosun.com...
http://defensetech.org...

So China would not immediately come to North Korea's Aid, their military is not nearly as advanced as the US. And with the state of North Korea's military being on even worse shape, combined Japanese, South Korea, ad already deployed US troops could easily eliminate North Korea, and force a stalemate with China.

As for Russian relations with North Korea, you base it entirely on a claim that South Korea would threaten the Russians and threaten to destroy the S-400,

An S-400 is a missile defense system that is currently being replaced with an S-500

So 1) Why would South Korea threaten Russia?
2) Why would Russia provide all out support for North Korea when they have had no relations since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991?
3) How would Russia get their entire aging military across Siberian Russia JUST to help a country they have been cutting ties with?

http://www.defensemedianetwork.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.crisisgroup.org...

As I said before If Russia were to enter WWIII it would be just to expand into Europe while the US was preoccupied in the Korean Theater. Russia would try to invade a series of countries along their border which includes Finland, Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia, Poland, etc. Each country would have a aging military and would not be able to put up a fight on their own, but if all these countries were to start fighting just Russia than Russia would drain any resources they have before they start fighting any actual powerful country.

" America would not use THAT MUCH MONEY again because the Americans remember from Bush's administration"

I dont even know what your trying to argue here but if WWIII were to break out I think there would be quite a lot of support for doing whatever it takes to make sure America is safe.

" USA, as I said wouldn't come over from America but maybe Japan and Guam! Don't argue with that point"

Well to quote Jack Sparrow, "I IS arguing the point"

f North Korea were to start to invade South Korea, one of the US's biggest trading partners, the US would surely come to their aid to both defend South Korea and eliminate North Korea in the process. The US would definitely cross the Pacific (like they've done in the past before South Korea was even a valuable trading ally) to protect their interests in South Korea....

"Russia has a huge army and has a great ability because it has one of the largest economies in the world and a huge GDP!"

Sources showing that Russia's army is not very advanced, very poorly equipped, and that their GDP is 14x smaller than that of the US

http://en.wikipedia.org...(nominal)
http://www.thedailybeast.com...
http://www.spacewar.com...
http://www.amo.cz...

Russia spends 46 billion on an already weak military
US spends 685 billion on the most advanced military in the world....

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.globalsecurity.org...

"Therefore UK would start to send troops in a matter of months while Germany would not also come in around the time of UK coming in!"

Your idea that the UK would come to the immediate aid of North Korea over the US is also completely unfounded. If Britain and Germany were to enter WWIII it would be for reasons other than what is going on in North Korea....

For whatever reasons they enter the war, the UK vs Germany would be a very, very close fight.
British spending on the military = 47 Billion
German spending on military = 42 Billion
British military numbers = 100,000
German military numbers = 163,000
British military ranking = 3rd
German military ranking = 5th

http://www.businessinsider.com...
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk...
http://www.csmonitor.com...
http://www.militarytimes.com...
http://www.dirjournal.com...

So It can be assumed that Any direct conflict between Germany and Britain would be very very close, but I doubt Britain would win by a wide enough margin to donate any military they have left to aid North Korea.....

But here is one more thing to consider....
US troops in Britain = could not be found, estimated to be a few thousand
US troops in Germany = Over 50,000

(also US troops stationed in Japan and South Korea = 85,000)
http://www.dirjournal.com...

So If Britain were to fight Germany, and the US was on the side of Germany, then US troops would already be there and ready to fight Britain which could tip the conflict in favor of Germany if they had US support and Britain did not

So to summarize

1) North Korea is already under-supplied and weak.
2) Japan, South Korean, and US troops in the region are already vast.
3) China probably would not come to the immediate aid of North Korea
4) Russia who is even weaker would also not come to the immediate aid of North Korea
5) If Russia were to come they would have to move their entire military through Siberia and that could take years
6) Russia would probably invade small countries in East Europe and then lose any offensive capability before they went head to head against any actual power
7) Britain would lock into a war with Germany and would be very removed from the Asian theater, So it would be almost 1 on 1
8) US troops in Germany would tip the conflict into their favor.

That is why I think they will win
Debate Round No. 3
Viper-King

Pro

I ask my opponent and audience to wait for a few days for my rebuttal because I am in Lake Tahoe Resort without Internet service except for 15 minutes and since I can't write a case in 15 minutes I request to be excused for this round though I would love another debate "World War III Part 2." Thank you!
imabench

Con

A WWIII Part 2? SWEET >:D
Debate Round No. 4
Viper-King

Pro

I'm so sorry that I have to forfeit this round because of lack of time because I came back yesterday from LAKE TAHOE! The jacuzzi was awesome. Anyways, please don't vote until World War III part 2 and part 3 because I haven't rebutted my opponent!
Debate Round No. 5
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by imabench 1 year ago
imabench
How did you find this debate?????
Posted by Undeadmens 1 year ago
Undeadmens
If he is Chinese why did he go to lake Tahoe ?????
Posted by imabench 2 years ago
imabench
Israel came up in the later debates....
Posted by OberHerr 2 years ago
OberHerr
Suprised no one picked Israel. It has one of the best military in the world, and is a nuclear power despite its size. Oh and the US could probably crush any nations military in open conflict easily.
Posted by Chrysippus 2 years ago
Chrysippus
The voting period for this ends in one day. Each half of the debate will have to stand on it's own for voting purposes.

For arguments in the second one, I will take those from this half into consideration; but I see no reason why this half of the debate should be left to votebombers and trolls.
Posted by Ore_Ele 2 years ago
Ore_Ele
http://www.debate.org...

People should not be voting until part 2 is completed.
Posted by Viper-King 2 years ago
Viper-King
fine! no lincoln douglas style!
Posted by imabench 2 years ago
imabench
If you do you might wanna figure out how each side can pick countries :P
Posted by 16kadams 2 years ago
16kadams
may I copy this debate it looks interesting
Posted by Cerebral_Narcissist 2 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist
You realise that anyone can take this and just say, "the onus is on my opponent to affirm WW3, I see no evidence of any such conflict".
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by Ore_Ele 2 years ago
Ore_Ele
Viper-KingimabenchTied
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Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: DO NOT VOTE FOR THIS YET!!! http://www.debate.org/debates/World-War-III-Part-2/1/
Vote Placed by Chrysippus 2 years ago
Chrysippus
Viper-KingimabenchTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: A clear win for Bench. Pro' syntax was terrible, his opinions without merit and not logically argued, and he gives no reliable sources.
Vote Placed by kohai 2 years ago
kohai
Viper-KingimabenchTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Counterbombing and reporting Mr.VicePresident
Vote Placed by Mr.VicePresident 2 years ago
Mr.VicePresident
Viper-KingimabenchTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: then con guy is awesome
Vote Placed by larztheloser 2 years ago
larztheloser
Viper-KingimabenchTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro should have clarified rules, done more rebuttal, and not started a debate before going to a resort.