Yahweh, the Volcano GOD of War
Debate Rounds (5)
Key things missing in the main article to which you should know:
1. Mountain GOD worship involves going to the Mountain of GOD, resting at it's foot, and worshiping it.. You can see this depicted below as I move along in point 6. This to which includes offering sacrifices ect. This is common in modern Volcano and Mountain GOD worship as it was in that biblical time period.
2. Mountain GOD worship also, in that time period, entailed a priest or follower to climb to the top of the mountain to meet said GOD, and to obtain and seek instructions.
3. Jethro, the midian Priest worshiped a mountain god called Jahve to which is the pronunciation of Yahweh (YHW). This priest married his daughter to Mosses, and mosses spent 40 years of his life in this region and amongst Jethro. Jehtro was a shasu of YHW, a nomadic tribe that made up a good portion of the pre-isrealites. This is of course being before the emergence of Christianity.
4. Mt Sinai isn't the only mountain this tribed worshiped their GOD at. It's understood that their Volcano GOD is associated with "ALL" the volcanic activity in the region.
5. Exodus was written in the exact same time period, or roughly just after the Super Volcanic eruption of Mt Thera. The volcanic eruption that buried much of Egypt in volcanic ash, caused Tsunamis in the region, and caused wide spread disease. Exodus was written after the event, and it's telling that this religion used it to make their GOD the GOD of Judah. Yep, not long after this eruption did Yahweh become the GOD of Judah and replaced EL or Baal that were once seen as the Father of all GODS. And this was an volcanic event recorded as far as China.. This eruption would have made Mt Saint Hellenes look like a wimpy fire cracker. It would be like comparing a 500lb bomb to a Hydrogen bomb. Most of the Bible is a recording of this event, and the events and turmoil that soon followed. The supposed Exodus begins on that very Northwestern region of Egypt.., and guess where MT THera is in relation to that region of Egypt. Yep, just a little more north west.
6. This mountain god worship is where you get your bearded GOD from. And it directly involves mountain GOD worship and common mountain god traditions and beliefs in that region and in that era. See the following examples:
THE OUREA were the Protogenoi (primeval gods) or rustic Daimones (spirits) of the mountains. Each and every Mountain was said to have its own ancient bearded god. Mountains were occasionally depicted in classical art as bearded old men rising up from between their craggy peaks. /Quote
This tradition and belief stretches all the way back to the biblical era. This is a common belief of not only in current mountain and volcano GOD worship, but in ancient Volcano / mountain GOD worship.. So I will provide you the bible and a current example of this and the point addressed above:
* Daniel 7: 9-10:
9 "As I looked,
"thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.
Current Modern day example:
In 1993, the carbonatite has extruded forming the white top of Oldoinyo Lengai and this white peak in the heart of the Maasailand is thought to represent the beard of the Maasai God, which is why the Maasai people call it the Mountain of God. David Maige, a senior warden at Tanzania Lake Manyara, told The Namibian this week that apart from contributing to the country's tourism sector by drawing a lot of tourists, Oldoinyo Lengai is also a holy mountain for the Maasai people, just like Namibia's Ovahimba people believe in their holy fire. He said the Maasai people use the mountain as a site to conduct rituals such as sacrifices and prayers. "There are many American and European scientists studying and monitoring the activity of the mountain," said Maige. He said the mountain also offers wonderful view of Lake Natron. He said when the mountain erupts the Maasai people believe that their God is angry and they have to go to the mountain to placate him with prayers. Maige said the lower slopes of the mountain are used by the Maasai people for grazing cattle as the volcanic soil is very fertile for growing grass.
So those points above weren't entirely addressed in the main article below. So here is the Article and it's supporting evidence page regarding this Volcano GOD of War:
Supporting evidence not used in the main article (mostly scripture):
I would strongly recommend reading the material and all the links ect before trying to debate. That includes understanding that the term "Volcano" didn't exist in that time period as discussed in my article.
I will keep my first argument short. My opponent has listed reference to an article that, if I understand correctly, he himself wrote. This is not exactly a credible source.
Also, in the article cited it is mentioned that God is the Volcanic God, but also mentions Mountain God. It specifically references Mount Sinai which is not a volcano.
I would also like to point out that most, if not all, of the verses used in the arguments are taken sorely out of context.
I yield to my opponent to do a better job of defending and supporting his claims as the burden of proof would fall on him.
2ndly, his argument of mountain vs volcano is irrelevant as outlined in my article. You can't apply 21st century understanding of mountains and volcanoes to the biblical era. Hence, the term volcano didn't exist in that era as already discussed. They only had a term for "mountain" and describing a volcano and referring to it as a Mountain of GOD is all that needs to be sufficiently addressed. And even the current example I gave described their volcano as the "Mountain of GOD".. This you can find in the bible just as much as you can find it in current volcano/mountain god worship.
3rdly, the argument that all the verses being taken out of context is false. And the context in most of the verses are self-explanatory, and self-evident.
You can take Micah 4:1
In the last days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and peoples will stream to it.
And this is not the only place you find this... You can find it in
2Now it will come about that
In the last days
The mountain of the house of the LORD
Will be established as the chief of the mountains,
And will be raised above the hills;
And all the nations will stream to it.
3And many peoples will come and say,
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths."
For the law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
It' no different fundamentally than the modern example I gave you.. And you need to know the primary name to which "lord" is pasted over or replaces. Even the Hawaiians worship Pelee in this manner.
And there is a reason why El Shaddia means "God Most High" and "God of the Mountains".. And this primary name is chiefly used in the Torah. And I outlined the root word and where the name Shaddai comes from... This is a mountain GOD whether you want to admit it or not. You can even find it in modern Christianity:
The funny part is that most people or Christians do not even realize it because they have no formal eduction on the history and traditions of mountain GOD worship. The problem here is, is that Con is not debating with someone who doesn't have a deep understanding of Mountain GOD worship, or what's actually in the bible in regards to this.
How else would the same God worshipped by those in the Exodus walk with Adam in the Garden of Eden in Genesis? How would he have a voice coming from the sky in the New Testament? How would He create all of the Heavens and the earth? This is the God of the Bible, who my opponent claims to refer to. However, he takes his Scripture out of the full context of the Bible, and picks and chooses verses that make his claim sound plausible.
David mentions a few things that would have you believe a persona attached to an object of worship is real. His argument is similar to insisting Pelee being believed to manifest as a old woman in the flesh would some how nullify her as being a volcano Goddess. Same concept in dealing with her name "Pelee" that means (Miracle / wonder) as some means to ignore all the evidence that shows this Goddess to be a volcano / mountain GOD.. Hence the meaning of the name Yahweh to which is reference to the spirit of the mountain/volcano isn't as relevant as how this god is worshiped and what it is attached to. So under his argument, he would tell you that Pelee isn't a mountain god/volcano god when we know the case to be otherwise.
He mentions Genesis, and yet Genesis does not originate with this religion / cult. The creation story predates Christianity's use of this creation story by hundreds of years. It derives, by most scholars, from preexisting beliefs, cultures, and traditions that stem back to their polytheistic roots. Even the Enuma Elish predates Genesis to which dates back to 1750 BCE discovered in the Library of Ashurbanibal. And even this Creation story is suspected of coming from common polytheistic oral traditions and beliefs. This is especially true when there was no archelogical evidence of monotheism in this time period. In fact monotheism didn't really become to full fruition until the Second Isaiah, or show itself viable till around 600 BCE. Even the shasu and midianites were still polytheistic even after Yahweh was made the GOD of Judah. Genesis is an edited version made to be monotheistic, or appear to be monotheistic to which even includes the effort or editing out Asherah as Elyon's wife. And largely so because Yahweh is the GOD that suddenly replaces El Elyon or El and Baal as God of the mountains or father of all GOD's. At some point Yahweh comes into the Canaanite religion and replaces those GOD's with Yahweh. Here's a nice video to watch as well (seems to appear in the upper right corner):
However, Genesis is still consistent with mountain GOD worshiping despite his David's claim that it's not. Hence, you can resource the following regarding mountain GOD's..:
Especially prominent mountains are favourite places for cults of high places, particularly when they are isolated as island mountains, mountains with snowcaps, or uninhabited high mountain ranges. The psychological roots of the cults of high places lie in the belief that mountains are close to the sky (as heavenly ladders), that clouds surrounding the mountaintops are givers of rain, and that mountains with volcanoes form approaches to the fiery insides of the earth.
Mountains, therefore, serve as the abodes of the gods, as the centres of the dead who live underground, as burial places for rainmakers (medicine men), and ... (9,243 of 9,243 words)
We can find this very example in genesis regarding this belief, and even in reference to heavenly ladders ect to where Yahweh becomes El Elohim. You can find this in Genesis chapter 12 where El Shaddia is introduced (GOD OF the Mountains). This is where Abraham is established as worshiping El Shaddai. El Shaddai is one of the names for El Elyon within the Canaanite polytheistic religion. And this is the GOD that Yahweh replaces in Genesis. You can see this replacement with Abrahams decendent Jacob in Genesis 18. Here in Genesis 18, please note the source given above regarding mountain god worship and mountains being considered as heavenly ladders to heaven, and to meet with GOD. This which is also reference in my first round regarding common mountain god worship where climbing the mountain of god is going to meet with god and or get instructions ect from said mountain spirits / gods thought to dwell in and on top of these holly mountains. So here is genesis 18 (Genesis 28:11 - 19):
11 So he came to a certain place and stayed there all night, because the sun had set. And he took one of the stones of that place and put it at his head, and he lay down in that place to sleep. 12 Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
13 And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: "I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants. :Quote:
Jacob makes this deity his Elohim to which means he makes this GOD his primary GOD of worship, or father or all other GOD's. This God then Gets replaced by Yahweh in Exodus to which is clear stated in Exodus 18:11:
"Now I know Yahweh is greater than all other GODS"
And Exodus depicts this GOD as a Volcano / Mountain GOD greater than the previous mountain GOD El Elyon / El Shaddia. Or as the same GOD giving the scripture in the main article I wrote. And this is noting the evidence in the comment section regarding Exodus being written around 1440 BCE and post written in the same time period as the Eruption of Mt Thera around 1440-1500 BCE. And eruption, as noted in the comment section, that buried much of Egypt in volcanic ash.. This event is seen by most scholars today as being the subject of story depicted in exodus, but as a largely embellished story in that same way where we take real events and embellish them.. Kinda like hollywood movies.., or something like world flood myths likely based on Tsunamis ect. Exodus is seen as taking this event to promote and establish the Yahwist monotheistic religion. They became very good at using fear of hell fire, lakes of fire, ect as conversion tools ect. You see these things manifest in modern Christianity, and you can see them in my main article to which includes burnt offerings and sacrifices ect. Yahweh was a Mountain / Volcano war GOD, and still is today. Yahweh is established as their War GOD in Exodus 15:3 as the GOD that delivered the isrealites from Egypt. And well, the evidence provided tells us what did that, and what volcanic event that relates to. It's just that most Christian's don't even realize it, and they believe in some cosmic deity that derrived from copying and ripping a polytheistic creation story that predated it. So the creation story is not relevant to establishing what this GOD is..
More evidence can be established in the comments section regarding quoted material from Neal Maxwell Institute of religious scholarship... It's safe to say at this point that the evidence provided here far exceeds that provided by my contender David. This to whom hasn't addressed the content directly but rests his arguments on focusing on a persona while ignoring what the persona is attached to, or what it has to do witch common mountain GOD worship in that region and era.
davidtaylorjr forfeited this round.
Most of Genesis, again, comes from common polytheistic roots. Scholars know that this story pretty much stemmed in the oral traditions from the much older Mesopotamian creation myths. You can find these oral Mesopotamian creation myths in the En�ma Eliš (or Enuma Elish), the Atra-Hasis, the 'Eridu Genesis' and in the the 'Barton Cylinder'.
:The cosmography of Genesis is that of the ancient Near East, in which the Earth was thought to be a flat disk :floating on water. The flat-disk Earth was seen as one big supercontinent surrounded by a superocean, of which the :known seas—what today is called the Mediterranean Sea, the Persian Gulf, and the Red Sea—were inlets. The Earth, :the sea around it and the air (or sky) above it were thought to be inside a huge half-sphere, and this half-sphere was :thought to be surrounded by water. The dome of this half-sphere (the firmament) was thought of as a solid :upside-down bowl (made of tin according to the Sumerians, and iron according to the Egyptians) with the stars :embedded in it. The fresh-water sea beneath the Earth was the source of all fresh-water springs, rivers and wells.
:In both the En�ma Eliš and Genesis
They are their own interpretations of the oral traditions, and even those by most scholars probably come from an even older unrecorded oral tradition. But most scholars realize that these traditions have polytheistic roots. Just as Much of proverbs is taken from the Egyptians as well... However, lets address his argument:
He said Adam walked with GOD...And yet the bible says no such thing.. It states this:
:Gen 3:8 And they heard the sound of Jehovah God walking up and down in the garden at the breeze of the day. And :the man and his wife hid themselves from the face of Jehovah God in the middle of the trees of the garden.
It's being assumed that Adam had contact with God on a level known only by a few other humans. Actually, the first person spoken of who "walked with God" would be Enoch.
:Gen 5:22 And Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he fathered Methuselah. And he fathered sons and daughters.
:Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty five years.
:Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God. Then he was not, for God took him.
And where else was Enoch concerning this GOD? :
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
How is that GOD described in Revelation 1?
:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, :and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
And now you know where the Jewish seven Candle sticks comes from and why they regard the flame divine and the spirit of GOD within the flame. Again Volcanic in origin, and gives you understanding of the SHIN to which is the abbreviation for this deity, and what El Shaddai actually means in terms of "GOD ALMIGHTY / GOD OF THE MOUNTAIN" and the roots words meaning to "destroy with fire" .. ect.. Yes I have done my history and bible study too..
So to conclude:
This is a metaphoric "walking", that is, he was a believer and walked with God in a spiritual sense regarding Adam, not seemingly a physical sense. If physical, he was likely walking near the mountain of GOD or within grumbling distance of it. And the GOD in Genesis may not be the same same GOD. Yahweh didn't come till much later, or the Yahwists might have taken over this GOD as it's concept is rooted in their own Volcanic Mountain GOD religion..
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by imabench 4 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: I have no idea what was being argued here, but given the quality of the pro's arguments compared to the con's arguments, plus the FF by the con, it seems that Pro cleaned up in this debate. Ill come back later to see if I can understand what this moshpit of a debate is about.
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