The Instigator
Calvincambridge
Pro (for)
Losing
13 Points
The Contender
Patzer24
Con (against)
Winning
23 Points

Yashua is Ha mashiach as spoken of by the prophets

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
Patzer24
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/25/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,211 times Debate No: 18467
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (0)
Votes (6)

 

Calvincambridge

Pro

Here is a debate on the divinity of Yashua ha mashiach. I will show the Hebrew scriptures proved Yashua to be the Mashiach as told by the prophets of old.

Rules

New testament is a historacally accurate source
If oral torah is cited Rabbis comments will not be cited but the actual oral torah
Tanakh is will all be equally authorative.

I look forward to this debate.
Patzer24

Con

Thank you for challenging me to this debate. I am here to prove Jesus is no messiah!

Contention 1: Wrong lineage

(P1) The messiah must be a descendent of David through his son, Solomon.
(P2) Jesus was not a descendent of David through his son, Solomon.
(C) Therefore, Jesus was not messiah.

Matthew and Luke's genealogy not only contradict each other, but contradict the Hebrew scripture. According to Jewish Law, tribal identification "comes from the father's side," while the mother determines whether or not the child is Jewish. If Jesus was born of a virgin, he could NOT have been a true descendent of David.

Furthermore, we read in Luke 3:31 that it was Nathan that was the ancestor of Jesus through David. Therefore, he could NOT have been Messiah.

2Samuel 7:12-16 – (12) When your days are fulfilled, and you shall lie with your forefathers,
then I will raise up your seed that shall issue from your body after you, and I will establish
his kingdom. (13) He shall build a house for My Name, and I will establish the throne of his
kingdom forever. (14) I will be to him a father, and he shall be to Me a son; so that when he
goes astray I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with afflictions of human beings.
(15) And My mercy shall not depart from him; in the manner in which I withdrew it from
Saul, whom I removed from before you. (16) And your house and your kingdom shall be
established forever before you; your throne shall be established forever.
We see the following elements in the Davidic covenant:
1) An everlasting dynasty, the Davidic dynasty, is established with David
2) David's heir to the throne, through whom this dynasty shall pass, will be one of his
natural (biological) sons
3) The son who inherits the throne from David is the one who will build the Temple in
Jerusalem
4) The Davidic dynasty will propagate through David's seed ( זֶרַע [ZEra]), i.e., via his direct
descendants
5) Every future king who sits upon the throne of David will be a mortal man
6) Every future king who sits upon the throne of David will have a special "father-son"
relationship with God, so that when he sins, he will be duly punished
7) Even when future kings (in David's seat) commit iniquity, God will keep the Davidic
dynasty intact, and not terminate it as He did with Saul's kingship

Reference: http://thejewishhome.org......;(Download the PDF "Genealogical scams and flim-flams).

Contention 2: Crucified Messiah?

Jesus was supposedly crucified, and it seems that this was one of my opponent's questions for me. The fact that Jesus was crucified proves that he was NO MESSIAH!
(P1) He that is hung on a tree is accursed of God.
(P2) Jesus was crucified.
(C) Therefore, he was accursed by God and thus cannot be messiah.

"But you shall not leave his body on the pole overnight. Rather, you shall bury him on that [same] day, for a hanging [human corpse] is a blasphemy of God, and you sall not defile your land, which the Lord, your God, is giving you as an inheritance.

Because Jesus was hanged on a cross, he could not have been Messiah.

Contention 3: Jesus is not messiah because he failed to complete the messianic prophecies!

(P1) The messiah will fulfill all the messianic prophecies.
(P2) Jesus did NOT complete the messianic prophecies.
(C) Therefore, Jesus is not messiah.

I believe that this is the most compelling case that I will make. Jesus could NOT be Messiah because he failed to fulfill the messianic prophecies. In order to understand this, we need to understand who the messiah will be and what the messiah will (supposedly) do.

The messiah will:
Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the messiah.

Jesus failed to complete any of the three, therefore, he is not messiah.

Reference: http://www.aish.com......;

Jesus is clearly not messiah.

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
Calvincambridge

Pro

I also like this debate but let us use the Hebrew terms for the Jewish concepts. Yashua ha Mashiach is clearly descended of David and Solomon "And Jesse begat David the king and David the king begat Solomon of her who had benn the wife of Urias" (Holy Bible King James version) The Gospel according to St. Matthew Chapter 1 verse 6.

In Christian thelogy there is a 2 part coming of ha Mashiach

The first 6 BC-30AD
Gospel accounts

The second part

The end times spoken of by the prophets,Yashua,The apostles and revelations.

The third temple will be build by Yashua ha Mashiach in the end days and fufill the rest of the messianiac prophrcies.

The passage shows David is descended of Nathan.

Where is this accursed by God passage you make refrence to.

Yashua is clearly ha Mashiach sent by YHVH

Thank you vote PRO !!!!!!!
Patzer24

Con

My opponent refuted NOTHING of what I said. With that said, let's look at Pro's "evidence".

"I also like this debate but let us use the Hebrew terms for the Jewish concepts. Yashua ha Mashiach is clearly descended of David and Solomon "And Jesse begat David the king and David the king begat Solomon of her who had benn the wife of Urias" (Holy Bible King James version) The Gospel according to St. Matthew Chapter 1 verse 6. "

And I already explained how that is CONTRADICTED! In addition, being from Solomon does not make you the messiah. Joseph's lineage, is recorded in Matthew, whilst (Mary's?) genealogy is in Luke—(according to tradition, I disagree with this.) in Luke Jesus is from Nathan, while in Matthew, he is from Solomon. As I explained in the last round, THE FATHER GIVES THE LINEAGE AND THE MOTHER GIVES THE JEWISH SOUL. Therefore, if Jesus was born of a virgin, he could NOT be messiah, no matter how my opponent twists these verses.

"second coming?"

In order to explain away the fact that Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies, there is that catch-all explanation of a second coming. This is nowhere to be found in Judaism.

Deuteronomy 21:23 is where the verse is found.
Debate Round No. 2
Calvincambridge

Pro

Incorrect resolution apparently his desendence is from Yehuda himself therefore Yashoua is Jewish and he is descendance meets the Messianiac prophicies. Judaism hasent had its first so of course a second would not be in Judaism. The hanging refers to being hung on a nuse Judas is accursed not Jesus.
Patzer24

Con

"Incorrect resolution apparently his desendence is from Yehuda himself therefore Yashoua is Jewish and he is descendance meets the Messianiac prophicies. Judaism hasent had its first so of course a second would not be in Judaism. The hanging refers to being hung on a nuse Judas is accursed not Jesus."

Still, my opponent refuted nothing from the first round (except this). According to Jewish law, it does not matter. Hanging does not always refer to being hanged with a noose.
Debate Round No. 3
Calvincambridge

Pro

Where do you get this idea from Rabbis comments because refrence to the talmud can only be the actual torah.
Patzer24

Con

Still, my arguments stand.

"Where do you get this idea from Rabbis comments because refrence to the talmud can only be the actual torah."

I do not understand.
Debate Round No. 4
Calvincambridge

Pro

You must show this means being supspended from a tree in any way and if you use the Talmud it must not be the rabbis comments. Besides it is only made from a tree it is not a whole tree.
Patzer24

Con

All my arguments stand.

"it is only made from a tree it is not a whole tree."

The Hebrew word "tree" can also mean a plank. (Strong's concordance dictionary).

My opponent has not refuted anything I stated in the opening argument round and I have refuted all of what my opponent is saying.
Debate Round No. 5
No comments have been posted on this debate.
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by kohai 5 years ago
kohai
CalvincambridgePatzer24Tied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit and countering lord
Vote Placed by thett3 5 years ago
thett3
CalvincambridgePatzer24Tied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: This is in response to Lordknuckle and dappleshades votes...they both say that Pro did badly, but give all the points to pro..
Vote Placed by Lordknukle 5 years ago
Lordknukle
CalvincambridgePatzer24Tied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro had an awful argument.
Vote Placed by dappleshade 5 years ago
dappleshade
CalvincambridgePatzer24Tied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro kept ignoring points and did not source.
Vote Placed by Man-is-good 5 years ago
Man-is-good
CalvincambridgePatzer24Tied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: After his transcient victory over Kohai, Calvin seems to be back on track on ignoring his opponent's points, especially about the apparent failure of Jesus to perform all the miracles and so on.
Vote Placed by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 5 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
CalvincambridgePatzer24Tied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro just posted rubbish.