The Instigator
Oshun
Pro (for)
Losing
24 Points
The Contender
KonigWolf
Con (against)
Winning
39 Points

Yes the Confederate flag is racist

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 16 votes the winner is...
KonigWolf
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/20/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 8,203 times Debate No: 42711
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (235)
Votes (16)

 

Oshun

Pro

I think the Confederate flag is racist because it represent the people who were fighting to preserve African American slavery
KonigWolf

Con

While the flag does represent the southern side of the civil war, it isn't "racist." The combatants were racist, and they flew the flag, but they didn't use the flag to announce "hey, we're racist and we want to win to make slavery country-wide!" Their flag was a statement of rebellion against the national government infringing on their beliefs, not of racism
Debate Round No. 1
Oshun

Pro

Does the Confederate flag represents Confederates? Yes. Did the Confederates fight to preserve slavery? Yes because it says so in each Confederate state Cause of secession.
KonigWolf

Con

True, except that they weren't fighting specifically to preserve slavery. As has been mentioned in the comments, they were fighting for their rights, much as many people are fighting today. For examples, glance at the "big issues" list
Debate Round No. 2
Oshun

Pro

If slavery was ANY part of their reason than it's racist, and my point is proven. If you were a black slave, would those other reasons have mattered to you? True, they were fighting for state rights, but states right to own slaves.
KonigWolf

Con

Using that as a reason is like saying that the current American flag stands for the hatred of the British because we were fighting to secede from them in the Revolutionary war. However, they are now one of our greatest allies, both militarily and economically.

Obviously yes, were I a black slave, those reasons would matter to me, but I have several black friends who share my same views about the confederate flag, so using that as a reason doesn't work in every case. They believe their state flags to be more racist than the confederate flag, because while slavery was one of the rights they were fighting for, and I do have sempathy for those subjected to slavery in any sort of way, saying the confederate flag was racist is kind of a stretch, especiallly when you compare it to the amount of other reasons the south was fighting.
Debate Round No. 3
Oshun

Pro

Seceding was not the issue, it was the reasons why they were seceding . I can tell you those other reasons did not matter to blacks when they were slaves and they don't matter to me because none of those reasons would have set slaves free. As far as blacks having a CSA flag, unfortunately there are some blacks who would do just about anything to fit into white society and there are some blacks that just don't know their history and don't care to. You have some blacks and whites that are being fooled by the "The United Daughters of Dixie" and other Confederate sympathizing organizations, with their Lost Cause Agenda, refreshing the racism behind that flag by lying about the CSA role in the preservation of slavery and trying to downplay it and rewrite history.

If they are lying about it then they can't have any empathy towards it. How could it be a far stretch to say they are racist when they were fighting to preserve African American slavery? Is it because they had other reason? Do those other reason change the fact they were fighting to preserve slavery? With the Confederate Vice president stating "Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the Negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition". That's not a stretch at all to say that it's racist.

There really wasn't a whole lot of other reasons they were fighting, the other issues were just satellite issue to the main idea of slavery. They wanted to uphold the old Constitution that would allow for slavery excluding the 14th amendment, when that's all that had changed in the Constitution. They benefited very well off the slave labor and they had no intentions on stopping it. Cotton was the bread and butter of the South and they needed slaves to cultivate it. It was not over tarrifs or anything other than what they said straight from the horse's mouth in their secession letters.

Tell me specifically the other reason you are talking about, if you have any please show me where it say that in their secession letters, because there is no getting around secession letters detailing specifically why they wanted to secede from the Union thus causing the Civil War. The United states did not secede from Britian because they wanted to continue on with slavery, regardless of it being the main reason or not.
KonigWolf

Con

Read this

http://www.trainweb.org...

It explains the actual history of the and meaning of the flag as opposed to societies transformation
Debate Round No. 4
Oshun

Pro

Yes there is a lot of information that is being put out by Confederate sympathizer. That particular site, is following the tenets of the Lost Cause Agenda so well, that I can almost predict what they are going to say before I scroll down and read more. The other site I have been on at least deviated some from it but this site follows it to the T they could stand to be a little more original with their lies. Try looking up the "The Lost Cause Agenda of the South/Confederacy" and see how it sounds similar. Neo Confederates have countless websites. The thing is when faced with facts it all crumbles, and they get pretty upset when you expose the truth, you will be called racist , N-Word, Al Sharpton, Liberal, Jew, all kinds of things.

They don't seem to realize that the Confederates reason for fighting in the Civil War is nothing that has to be guessed about or, made up. They don't seem to understand that the words and the intentions of the Confederates were well documented and really is not as trivial as they try to make it. They can't say that the North made it up either because you can go to just about any Confederate state, (not sure about all of them but I know South Carolina for sure), where you can actually see those documents for yourself, signed by CSA officials of the 1800s and they will even tell you.
KonigWolf

Con

Firstly I'd like to apologize for the delay, Sunday is a very busy for me.

Now, your arguments so far have all been about the ethics of slavery and what the flag is seen as by you. However, that is not what you are debating with my about. This debate is about whether the confederate flag is racist.

Given the fact that the flag is an inanimate object and is incapable of emotions and ideas, I can only assume that you mean your title to be read as "Does the confederate flag represent racism?"

None of the arguments you have presented have given evidence in support of your side. You have mentioned that the confederate flag represents the Confederates, and that they were fighting to preserve slavery, but this is an invalid argument for your side because you are debating whether the flag represents racism, not whether the people flying the flag were racist, as everyone can agree that they were.

My argument is that the flag does not represent racism, as it began as the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. Saying that the confederate flag is racist is exactly the same as saying that the Swastika is racist.

"The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck."(1)

The Nazis twisted this meaning for the world by taking it as their symbol and then by doing horrible things to the Jews in and around Germany. However, this does not change what the Swastika originally represented, no matter how many people today are dead set in believing that the Swastika means racism against Jews etc. This is exactly the same case for the confederate flag. It had an originally harmless meaning, but because of the actions of the people that flew it, that meaning got twisted into what many people see it as today. But this doesn't change the actual meaning of the flag.

Oh, and a side note, my black friends who read your comments about them are in full disagreement with you, and aren't offended by anyone flying the confederate flag unless that person has come into contact with them and actually expressed racism.

I wish you luck, and I thank you for having this debate with me and being patient with my slow replies.

(1)http://history1900s.about.com...

Debate Round No. 5
235 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by GWL-CPA 3 years ago
GWL-CPA
I finished my third debate about 30 minutes after the voting period for this debate had expired, too bad; I would have voted for KonigWolf because he had the best arguments, evidence, spelling and grammar, attitude and conduct.

She is in this same debate this time with Cooldudebro right now. But for some reason he did not post an argument. I don't know if he is out of town for the holidays or just doesn't care.

"Is the Confederate Flag Racist?"
http://www.debate.org...

Remember, a person does not automatically forfeit the debate for missing argument rounds. So if he post a good argument addressing all of Oshun's points, he could still win, assuming his arguments and evidence, etc. are better.

It is a Myth at this site that if you forfeit a round you lose the debate; that is a lie!

Here is what is states about forfeits per the DDO's FAQs page:

What if I forfeit a round?
Even if you don't have time to leave a full response, DO NOT forfeit a round. Forfeiting a round destroys your credibility and makes it less likely that voters will vote for you. If you can't post a full response, write as much as you can, and leave a simple sentence stating that you are unable to post a full argument and will return for the next round. This lets your opponent know that you still wish to participate in the debate and allows them to elaborate their argument. If you or your opponent have forfeited a round and you would like to draw that to the attention of voters, post a link in this forum thread.
http://www.debate.org...
Posted by Sukhmeet 3 years ago
Sukhmeet
I am so glad Kongiwolf won, Oshun was just staying to one part of the debate, slavery
Posted by GWL-CPA 3 years ago
GWL-CPA
Oshun,

How many more times are you going to try this debate?

You should go look at the forum I created and post some comments.

Only People Can be Racist, not Flags
http://www.debate.org...
Posted by GWL-CPA 3 years ago
GWL-CPA
@ kbub,

I was preparing a long post on how your vote was totally wrong and dishonest, and how you should be banned from voting on any debates because your RFD was nonsense.

But, you vote is not much different that many of the votes, most are based on confirmation bias.

See my Forum on "Confirmation Bias Cannot be Beaten!" at the following link.
http://www.debate.org...

But since this debate is over and Oshun has lost, why bother.

Oshun, you logic is flawed and you have no clue what you are talking about. The Confederate flag is not racist. I hope most blacks do not think like you. I am pretty sure that President Obama does not think like you.

More Americans see the Confederate flag as a symbol of Southern pride than racism, but many disapprove of its display in public.

A protest over the government shutdown and the closure of Washington's WWII memorials sparked controversy recently, when a protester was photographed displaying a Confederate flag outside the White House. Some commentators argued it is inappropriate to bring a symbol of Southern rebellion to a protest regarding US Army memorials, while others called it potentially hostile or even racist to wave the Confederate flag in front of the place where Barack Obama lives -- or, as one commentator put it, "outside the home of a black family".

YouGov research shows that while more Americans think that the Confederate flag is a symbol of Southern pride (35%) than think it is a symbol of racism (24%), there is a wide partisan divide in opinion. 43% of Democrats think that the Confederate flag is primarily a symbol of racism, while the majority of Republicans (56%) think that it is instead a symbol of Southern pride, and only 20% say that it is either both a symbol of Southern pride and racism (16%) or just racist (4%).
http://today.yougov.com...

Only people can be racist, not inanimate objects like flag.
Posted by Oshun 3 years ago
Oshun
"Back then, one state could cut off another state because of what it was doing. Now you have to go through the branches of the government to cut off a state" Read each CSA state letters of secession and tell me if the reasons you speak of were the reason. http://sunsite.utk.edu...
Tell me if it was just about state rights.
Posted by Oshun 3 years ago
Oshun
As long as the Confederate flag represent's the Confederates and their cause, it's no changing the meaning of it up. You have every right to view the flag however you want, but it's when you start making omittions, and lying about the history behind the flag, misrepresenting the flag, is when it becomes an issue. It shouldn't be an issue if anyone does think it's racist when facts are behind their views
Posted by debate339 3 years ago
debate339
I have to disagree with you Oshun. I am from the South and down there we believe that the Confederate flag is a symbol of when we had economic balance. We keep it flying through good times and bad. We lower halfay down, just like the American flag, when something terrible happens. The Confederate flag is also a symbol for state's rights. Back then, one state could cut off another state because of what it was doing. Now you have to go through the branches of the government to cut off a state
Posted by Oshun 3 years ago
Oshun
"Oshun keeps keep bringing up the secession letters as proof that the Confederate Flag is a racist, which it can"to be because it is an inanimate object"
So is the Nazi flag, it's an "inanimate object" so is the Taliban Flag. The Confederate flag represents the Confederate Cause in which Confederate soldiers were aware of what that cause was. You know that's what I saying, so I won't even try to entertain things you want to split hairs over. "Secession letters are inanimate objects" Yes they are inanimate objects that happen to record the answers to the question as to what the Confederate cause was about in which everyone seems to want to ignore on their quest to glorify the Confederate flag by making omissions here and there, purposely lying about history.

"Should the US flag be racist" No, even while it's true the North had its hand in slavery their resolve about slavery changed giving us opportunities the South/Confederates wanted to keep us from. It did not take a war that slaughter many of black and white men, all to keep blacks from enjoying the liberties The US flag granted to us. It's not the Union we honor, when blacks honor the American flag, it the opportunities afforded to us under the US flag, and it represents the land we are from. The Confederates dying wish for blacks was slavery with their resolved totally unchanged. Indians you speak about, that's off topic. Deflecting the blame in this situation of what was done here and there to other people speaks nothing about what the Confederates Cause was in relation to African Americans thus why it is viewed as racist. "No way to prove that people who owned black slaves, that were slaves because of their race were racist"? Really? "Percent that owned slaves" Simply look at a summarized version of the Census record in the south in the 1860s, remember women and children did not own slaves, don't factor them in. You didn't have to own slaves to support the slave cause.
Posted by GWL-CPA 3 years ago
GWL-CPA
In my VI January 1, 2014, I made an error or two or more, but this one was huge.

This sentence "Anyway, the Confederate Flag is not racist. Inanimate objects can (s/b can't) have human traits."

It should read "Anyway, the Confederate Flag is not racist. Inanimate objects can't have human traits.
Posted by GWL-CPA 3 years ago
GWL-CPA
Oshun " Part I " January 1, 2014

Oshun keeps keep bringing up the secession letters as proof that the Confederate Flag is racist, which it can"t be because it is an inanimate object.

Here is another fact. Ten times or more Native American Indians were treated like slaves and killed in North America by White Men than African America Slaves. If we are going to call any Flag racist, shouldn"t it be the American Flag, not the Confederate Flag.

According to Adalberto Aguirre, there were 1,161 slaves executed in the U.S. between the 1790s and 1850s. Like everything about slavery, it is hard to get any reliable data.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

"American Indian Wars is the name used in the United States to describe the multiple conflicts between American settlers or the federal government and the native peoples of North America from the time of earliest colonial settlement until approximately 1890. According to the U.S. Bureau of the Census (1894), "The Indian wars under the government of the United States have been more than 40 in number. They have cost the lives of about 19,000 white men, women and children, including those killed in individual combats, and the lives of about 30,000 Indians."
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Then, Oshun is forgetting that only about 3% to 20% of the people in the South actually owned slaves. There is no way to prove that the other 80% were racist.

"Even in the South, more than 80% of the white population never owned slaves."
http://townhall.com...
http://www.theroot.com...
16 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Donjaundebater1212 3 years ago
Donjaundebater1212
OshunKonigWolfTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I agree with WhiteFlame on this, The pro is looking at this from the wrong standpoint and the Con completes the challenge of proving the pro wrong.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 3 years ago
whiteflame
OshunKonigWolfTied
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Reasons for voting decision: To put it simply, Pro didn't fulfill his burden, and Con pointed that out well in the fifth round. Con took his time getting there, but he managed to throw other wrenches into Pro's argument. Slavery was a racist enterprise, but the confederate flag was not itself inherently racist. Con's round 4 post is the reason for the conduct vote, it's just not a good idea to post a link and say "read this" as the majority of your post. On grammar, Pro wasn't very clear much of the time, so grammar went to Con.
Vote Placed by debatinghoe123 3 years ago
debatinghoe123
OshunKonigWolfTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Reasons: Before reading, I held a belief that the confederate flag is racist, but through Con's arguments, he shows that it is not in fact solely due to racism. Conduct: Con's round 4 argument was just a link instead of actually taking key components from the link, which would award conduct to Pro. Spelling and grammar: Pro has many grammatical errors, and sometimes forgets a few letters. Arguments. The arguments were nearly the same, but "If slavery was ANY part of their reason than it's racist, and my point is proven" (Pro R3) shows false claims. Pro did not show any sources and Con put two. Overall, Con won the debate.
Vote Placed by ndedo 3 years ago
ndedo
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Reasons for voting decision: Not a great debate. Pro succeeded in proving that Confederates were racist, but that fact is inconsequential because it does nothing to prove the racist quality of the flag, which was representative of the rights of state governments to overrule the federal government. Con only posted a link in one round instead of an argument, so arguments were tied. Conduct was tied. Con at least had one good source at the end, while Pro had none. Pro's grammar was very poor, so Con gets that point as well. On a side note I suggest that both debaters read plenty of other debates to further develop their debating structure, which I found helped me a lot.
Vote Placed by kbub 3 years ago
kbub
OshunKonigWolfTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Obvious win for Pro. Conduct goes to Pro for, again, arguing actual history. Please don't talk about your "black friends" Con, it makes your racist arguments seem that much more racist. Seriously, do you think asking a "black person" whether they are offended is a good way to represent a minority? My god." Con doesn't like periods. The arguments here stem from a reinterpretation of history from the Daughters of the confederacy. It's been very difficult to make those myths die. The sources by rights should go to Pro. Some of your sources Con are internet ramblings. These do not constitute actual sources. There are rare occasions when a source makes the world a worse place or when it makes one more ignorant for reading it. Con's "sources" do both. Simply having a url is not a source. Pro had better sources, though no url. Pro had educational historical evidence.
Vote Placed by amik10 3 years ago
amik10
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Reasons for voting decision: Con admits the the confederates were racist in his first round. He says the flag was a sign of rebellion against the government that was infringing upon their beliefs. And by conceding that they are racist, that means their beliefs are racist, so their sign of rebellion is racist. As he said before, the "combatants were racist." Therefore PRO wins!
Vote Placed by Tophatdoc 3 years ago
Tophatdoc
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Reasons for voting decision: A very poor quality debate from both sides. Pro was making the argument about those who associated with the CSA flag were racist. The flag was originated by racists according to Pro and Con conceded this point in Round 2. Con in the last round showed that Pro failed to show that the flag represented racism but what is upheld by racists. This is the reason why neither side convinced me because it seemed the BOP was shared. Con wins a point for having less grammatical errors. Neither side wins the conduct point. Good luck to you both in future debates.
Vote Placed by funwiththoughts 3 years ago
funwiththoughts
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Reasons for voting decision: For putting a link instead of an argument in R4, Con loses Conduct. All other factors equal.
Vote Placed by jnedwards11 3 years ago
jnedwards11
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Reasons for voting decision: By Con's logic the American Flag is racist as well. Since it was flown over a country that happily reaped the bennifits of slavery since the dawn of it's existense. Moreover, you would be hard pressed to find ANY northerner who was fighting on the principal of racial equality. White people (everywhere) simply did not view blacks as equals at that time.
Vote Placed by annanicole 3 years ago
annanicole
OshunKonigWolfTied
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Reasons for voting decision: How's that? I challenge anyone to find three consecutive grammatically correct sentences typed by Oshun. She's illiterate.