The Instigator
Solarman1969
Pro (for)
Losing
31 Points
The Contender
Randomknowledge
Con (against)
Winning
45 Points

Yesterday was a KEY turing point in Election 08 : Barack Hussein Obama will likely be the president

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/13/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,167 times Debate No: 2607
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (67)
Votes (24)

 

Solarman1969

Pro

I heard his speech yesterday

This guy is a VERY good speaker and VERY inspirational

I may even consider voting for him, just for defeating the evil hildebeest.

Him vs McCain will be a VERY interesting contrast- either man is good IMO
Randomknowledge

Con

Hello, solarman, and as I have been waiting to debate you, this will be fun.

I am not going to disprove that Obama is not an incredible speaker and very articulate, because anyone can be articulate.

You also didnt say anything about WHY Obama would be better.

In this argument, I wish to clarify my stance: I have no preference. I fell that they would both be good, greate even, for our "lacking" government.

What I am arguing in this debate is the fact that Hilary Clinton is not an "evil hildebeest."

Also, mentioning that you might vote for him means absolutely nothing. There were an extemely high percentage of voters (the day before) the primaries that said "I will vote for Obama."

The next day more than half of them changed their vote to Clinton last minute.

what does this show?

This shows that people are unsure of where Obama stands. "Big Talk," you could say.

I am going to now prove that Mrs. Clinton is in fact NOT an "evil hildebeest." first I will give you the definition of evil, first definition from dictionary.com:

morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked

I will now present information as to why Hilary Clinton is the exact opposite of this, and why she has many good and endearing qualities. I direct your attention to a video on youtube and AOL of Mrs. Clinton all choked up about why she is in the race. Im sure you have seen it, and if not I will give the link. I have read the testimonials of people who were there and people who talked to her after and even Obama supporters, and they say that it was not a publicity stunt, act or anything immoral or unjust, thus disproving the evil part.

She has no bad marks on her track record, besides the occasional male rant, "Your a woman! We dont want a woman running our country!"

Which is completely and utterly rediculous, considering all of the woman leaders in the world:

Sri Lanka Prime Minister Sirimavo Bandaranaike (1960-1965)
(1970-1977) (1994-2000) elected
India Prime Minister Indira Gandhi (1966-1977)
(1980-1984) appointed, elected 1971 daughter
Israel Prime Minister Golda Me�r (1969-1974) appointed, elected 1973
Central African Republic Prime Minister �lisabeth Domiti�n* (1975-1976) appointed
United Kingdom Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher (1979-1990) elected
Dominica Prime Minister Eugenia Charles (1980-1995) elected
Norway Prime Minister Gro Harlem Brundtland (Feb-Oct 1981) (1986-1989) (1990-1996) elected
Yugoslavia Prime Minister Milka Planinc* (1982-1986) appointed
Pakistan Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto (1988-1990)
(1993-1996) elected
Bangledesh Prime Minister Khaleda Zia (1991-1996)
(2001-2007) elected
Poland Prime Minister Hanna Suchocka (1992-1993) appointed
Turkey Prime Minister Tansu �iller (1993-1996) appointed
Bangledesh Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina Wajed (1996-2001) elected
New Zealand Prime Minister Jenny Shippley (1997-1999) appointed
New Zealand Prime Minister Helen Clark (1999- ) elected
Senegal Prime Minister Mame Madior Boye (2001-2002) appointed
S�o Tom� and Pr�ncipe Prime Minister Maria das Neves (2002-2004) appointed
Mozambique Prime Minister Luisa Diogo (2004- ) appointed
Germany Chancellor Angela Merkel (2005- ) elected
South Korea Prime Minister Han Myung Sook (2006-2007) appointed

I have proved you wrong, now the ball is in your court. Please present some hard facts.

http://youtube.com...
http://www.filibustercartoons.com...

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
Solarman1969

Pro

Well, it seems to me we agree on Obama, but you differ with me on the Hildebeest, the scariest most evil plotting communist ever to try and gain the oval office

YOU SAID

What I am arguing in this debate is the fact that Hilary Clinton is not an "evil hildebeest."

now, I will easily prove that the Clintons and Hillary in particular ARE THE definition of evil, at least among American politicans (of course the Islamic terrorists are FAR more evil on the scale of evil)

YOU SAID

first I will give you the definition of evil, first definition from dictionary.com:

morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked

ok lets look at SPECIFIC BEHAVIOR by the Clintons / hildebeest that fits this criteria

(1) VINCE FOSTER

this is still the ultimate example

The man who knew too much?

The truth about the death of Hillary Clinton's close friend Vince Foster

Hillary's bid for the White House is taking its toll

On a Monday night in July 1993, a 48-year-old lawyer called Vince Foster was found dead in a park near Washington DC.

He had died from a gunshot wound to the mouth and his father's .38-calibre revolver, dating from 1913, was at his side.

It was the same method of suicide used by a Marine officer in the film A Few Good Men - which Foster was known recently to have watched.

In the movie, the officer had killed himself because he was distraught about testifying against his commanding officer.

In real life, Vince Foster was distraught at the prospect of being grilled about the shady affairs of Hillary Clinton.

A clear case of suicide, then. Or was it? As the months passed, wild rumours began to grow that a hitman had murdered him because he knew too much.

Tall and handsome, Vince Foster was one of Hillary's closest colleagues and best friends.

In Little Rock, Arkansas, they were partners in a law firm while Bill Clinton was governor of the state. And, naturally, when the Clintons moved to the White House, Vince Foster came, too.

It was unusual for Hillary to have such a close friendship with a man. Since her school days, she had operated most easily among women; and when it came to appointing her own staff at the White House, she chose 29 women and one man.

Hillary had long relied on Foster as a confidant, telling him before Bill's inauguration that, despite being an unelected spouse, she was going to "take command" and be "involved in this presidency" - a conversation he recorded in a journal. In turn, he idolised her.

Did that admiration make him cross a line that would normally have stopped him short? In the weeks before the inauguration, he had worked intensively with another Arkansas lawyer to expunge Bill and Hillary's financial records of a shady land deal - a scandal later known as the Whitewater affair.

Later, there were several official investigations into the Clintons' complex web of financial and real estate dealings, which culminated in criminal convictions for some of their associates, though Hillary and Bill were never prosecuted themselves.

Whitewater was later seen as symptomatic of the culture that existed in Arkansas during Bill's governorship, when the Clintons' connections helped them to enrich themselves.

For example, to augment her $110,000 salary, Hillary had earned large sums from seats on local corporate boards, including Wal-Mart.

One company chairman explained Hillary's presence on his board as "making sure he was in good grace with the people in power."

In that atmosphere, Bill and Hillary developed a sense of entitlement, borrowing from banks operated by political friends and accepting favours from individuals and corporations, such as the free use of private planes.

Was some of this weighing on Vince Foster's mind when he became both White House deputy counsel and attorney for both Bill and Hillary? What is certain is that he was unsettled by the First Lady's increasingly uncompromising demands.

It was clear that Foster was having difficulty being ordered around by the woman who had recently been his equal.

One of his first jobs in the White House was to try to make sense of the Clintons' false tax returns concerning the Whitewater land investment. A note in his hand-writing, found much later, warned that Whitewater was "a can of worms you shouldn't open."

Another "can of worms" that landed on his desk concerned the collapse of a bank called Madison Guaranty. To his consternation, allegations were being made that funds from the bank had been illegally diverted to Bill Clinton's campaign for governor in the mid-Eighties - and that Bill and Hillary had intervened with state regulators to help keep the bank solvent.

Foster was also fretting over the "excessive" sums Hillary was lavishing on redecoration of the White House.

In the end, though, it was the firing of seven staff - following pressure from the imperious First Lady - that "drove Vince batty," according to White House counsel Bernie Nussbaum.

Hillary had become convinced that the staff in the travel office that served the White House press corps were guilty of "financial mismanagement and waste." Foster was asked to help get rid of them.

In a meeting with him on May 13, 1993, Hillary asked him if he was "on top of" the travel office situation. He assured her that his team was working on it.

Afterwards, Foster noted that Hillary's mood was "general impatience ... general frustration."

Other White House aides later confirmed that she wanted her own "people" in the office, and that everyone felt "there would be hell to pay" if her wishes were defied.

On May 19, the travel office's seven employees were fired - and there was immediate uproar. Allegations of cronyism hit the headlines when it emerged that a distant cousin of Bill was to be put in charge of the office, while a friend of a friend was being promoted to take over some of the White House's air-charter business.

Worse still, none of the charges against the original travel office employees stood up, and their precipitous dismissals became a damaging test of Hillary's honesty.

She now insisted that the firings were not her fault. Others had misconstrued an "off-hand comment": she had meant only to suggest that the staff should "look into" questions about mismanagement.

Hillary also insisted she didn't know the "origin of the decision" to remove the employees, and that she "did not direct that any action be taken."

An official report issued seven years later concluded that her statements had been "factually false."

At the time, Vince Foster felt deeply responsible for the imbroglio and was worried that Congress might investigate. White House aide David Watkins remembers Foster saying to him "My God, what have we done?" and expressing concern that Hillary's role in the firings would come to light.

He urged Watkins to protect "the client" at all costs.

Foster knew that in shielding Hillary, he might have to mislead congressional investigators under oath - a grim prospect for a man who took pride in being a straight arrow.

By mid-July, he had lost more than a stone in weight and seemed unusually subdued. He twice told his wife that he felt under pressure and was thinking of returning to Arkansas.

Talking to a colleague about his dealings with Hillary, he said: "It's not the same." On one matter after another, he confided, she would bark "Fix it, Vince!" or "Handle it, Vince!" and leave him to pick up the pieces.

On July 16, Foster and his wife drove to an inn in Maryland for the weekend. At dinner that night, Foster cried when Lisa asked him "if he felt trapped." Three days later, he called his doctor, who gave him a prescription for the antidepressant Desyrel.

The following night, July 20, he was found dead.

I will FOLLOW WITH MUCH MORE, but the GHOST OF VINCE FOSTER LOOMS LARGE

she is EVIL TO THE CORE and MUST BE STOPPED
Randomknowledge

Con

Hello, solarman. I request of you not to space every sentence out to make your debate response look longer, because it looks better in paragraph form or in larger clusters. Separation really only works if separating different things. Moving on, I will not refute you entire spaced out Vince Foster summary, as it should have been consolidated into a paragraph and so I will adress it as a whole.

The Vince Foster thing:

Here is a summary of the Vince Foster death from another source, much shorter, I assure you.

Wrestling with clinical depression, Foster was prescribed the mild sleeping aid/anti-anxiety pill Trazodone over the phone by his doctor, though he only had taken a few before he died. The next day, Foster was found dead in Fort Marcy Park, a federal park in Virginia. He was found with a gun in his hand and gunshot residue on that hand. An autopsy determined that he was shot in the mouth and no other wounds were found on his body. A suicide note of sorts, actually a draft of a resignation letter, was found torn into 27 pieces in his briefcase, a list of complaints specifically including, "The WSJ editors lie without consequence"[13] and lamenting, "I was not meant for the job or the spotlight of public life in Washington. Here ruining people is considered sport."

His funeral Mass was held at the Cathedral of St. Andrew Catholic Church in Little Rock. Bill Clinton gave an emotional eulogy in which he recalled their boyhood times together and quoted a line from Leon Russell's "A Song for You": "I love you in a place that has no space and time."[14] Foster was buried in Memory Gardens Cemetery in his hometown of Hope. Foster was 48 years old and left behind his widow and three adult children.

Now, as Wikipedia, my source, is open to all to edit, shouldnt there be some more opinion about speculations and such?

Now, when visiting the "death of Vince Foster" wikipedia page, there are all sorts of speculations about who did what and where and conspiracies but it is blatantly clear the purpose of posting these thing:

Pure Rumor. There have been no official findings relating this case to the clintons at all. Moving on.

You said:

I will FOLLOW WITH MUCH MORE, but the GHOST OF VINCE FOSTER LOOMS LARGE

she is EVIL TO THE CORE and MUST BE STOPPED

Now, I want to know where you get your information and quotes, because personally, i am having a hard time finding this information.

Now, you have only suggested here that she was involved (of which i do not believe) in the life of Vince Foster. You have no proof she murdered him, nor sent anyone to do it. She put pressure on him, as any boss would do.

No proof= easy win for me.

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 2
Solarman1969

Pro

Well i see that this is now about Vince for here are some links

read Ruddy's book- it is VERY thorough

http://www.amazon.com...

You can beleive the whitewash or the truth

While we are at it. lets look at RON BROWNs DEATH and others as well.

I would read Cahills Book

http://www.amazon.com...

As Don Corleone would have said, "I'm a superstitious man, and if some unlucky accident should befall someone who could harm Clinton - if he is to be shot in the head by a police officer, or be found hung dead in a jail cell... or if he should be struck by a bolt of lightning - then I'm going to blame some of the people in his administration."

If all those deaths associated with people who had the power to bring Clinton down were simply coincidence, Clinton's the luckiest president in history.

Not only was Brown's head wound perfectly round and perfectly sized for a .45-caliber bullet hole, it was beveled just like an object with blunt sides, kinda like...well...a bullet.

Then investigators want to talk to the local who was responsible for bringing in the plane for landing, but ooopsie, he's got a bullet hole in him, too. And guess what? It's a .45-caliber bullet wound said to be self-inflicted. I can't help but think how lucky Mr. Clinton was. And how conveeeenient it was for the local to use a U.S. caliber instead of a 9mm or .380.

But I have to admit this hit was cleaner than the Vince Foster hit. Now the guy who did Vince was a rank amateur. They should let the mob go back to doing these things. They were much better.

For those who believe this was all coincidence, there are a lot of good books on the Easter Bunny here.

Here are links or MULTIPLE OTHER MYSTERIOUS DEATHS with the KLINGTONGS

http://www.etherzone.com...

http://www.lizmichael.com...

and lets not forget WACO

again , you will not remember any of this

But this debate is about how Barack will win the presidency

he will defeat Clinton and probably also McCain

McCain will be tough for him to beat on ISSUES, or REALITY

he will NOT be able to keep speaking in generalities in the general

But he is VERY SMART and will likely be able to AVOID tough questions

He also appears to be willing to take some conservative positions

So I think he will win

We will see
Randomknowledge

Con

As I like to keep my final arguments short, i will try to stay brief, but i will not make any gurantees. I have found one major flaw. You copied a review from amazon.com and used it as your own writing, not mentioning it as a source or anyhting like that. This is what the review says, also known as what you wrote:

"As Don Corleone would have said, "I'm a superstitious man, and if some unlucky accident should befall someone who could harm Clinton - if he is to be shot in the head by a police officer, or be found hung dead in a jail cell... or if he should be struck by a bolt of lightning - then I'm going to blame some of the people in his administration."

If all those deaths associated with people who had the power to bring Clinton down were simply coincidence, Clinton's the luckiest president in history.

Not only was Brown's head wound perfectly round and perfectly sized for a .45-caliber bullet hole, it was beveled just like an object with blunt sides, kinda like...well...a bullet.

Then investigators want to talk to the local who was responsible for bringing in the plane for landing, but ooopsie, he's got a bullet hole in him, too. And guess what? It's a .45-caliber bullet wound said to be self-inflicted. I can't help but think how lucky Mr. Clinton was. And how conveeeenient it was for the local to use a U.S. caliber instead of a 9mm or .380.

But I have to admit this hit was cleaner than the Vince Foster hit. Now the guy who did Vince was a rank amateur. They should let the mob go back to doing these things. They were much better.

For those who believe this was all coincidence, there are a lot of good books on the Easter Bunny here."

Now as the places of location are completely different, I highly doubt that this is your amazon.com account. Just for readers sake, I would like to give the only response to that plagarized review:

"I think it was the Easter Bunny who either a) shot Brown in the head before the flight and bundled him into a seat like "Weekend at Bernie's", b) hopped onto the plane during the flight, shot Brown in full view of thirty four other passengers and hopped out, or c) hired a couple of Croatian commandos to appear at the crash site and pump bullets into the dead man's head. Of course, no bullet, no metal fragments, and no exit wound may have something to do with the fact that no investigation has ever concluded that Brown was, in fact, shot. I would sooner believe in the Easter Bunny than to believe this conspiracist trash. Oswald acted alone. There are no UFOs. Vince Foster killed himself. Ron Brown and 34 others died in a plane crash. Jack Cashill gets it wrong again."

Only an opinion, but strong nonetheless.

Now to refute your final argumentI consolidated due to your unnecesary spacing):

"But this debate is about how Barack will win the presidency
he will defeat Clinton and probably also McCain
McCain will be tough for him to beat on ISSUES, or REALITY
he will NOT be able to keep speaking in generalities in the general
But he is VERY SMART and will likely be able to AVOID tough questions
He also appears to be willing to take some conservative positions

1. you cant make generalizations about Obama def. defeating Clinton and McCain, as the last time I checked Clinton was ahead in the delegate count.

2. "McCain will be tough for him to beat on ISSUES, or REALITY."
Ok, you just told us that McCain is better than Obama in "REALITY" and the "ISSUES."

3. You did it again with the "he will not be able to speak in generalities in the general."

4. I know that he is smart, as anyone who takes up this race is smart (except maybe Romney).

5. I know nothing about the positions he might or might not take, so I concede that ONE point to you.

Please vote con. Thank you.
Debate Round No. 3
67 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
what do you want?

It appears like I could be wrong and the mask is coming off Obambi with the sufacing of Rev Wright

hmmmmmm
Posted by Randomknowledge 9 years ago
Randomknowledge
3 weeks have passed, and no action or response. I will have to result to relaxing my viewing on this debate.
Posted by Randomknowledge 9 years ago
Randomknowledge
Hmm....thats interesting. No response...
Posted by Randomknowledge 9 years ago
Randomknowledge
Now, after you get your wits and intelligence in order, respond to me. so far, I see no intelligence whatsoever. Professor.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
The EVIL HIDEBEEST is going down!

Lets see a BIG FIGHT!

I Love it~

HA HA HA HA HA HA

GO OBAMBI!
Posted by Randomknowledge 9 years ago
Randomknowledge
You are a complete idiot. You never proved that she is an evil hildebeest or anyhting vile except a politician. Leave this site to people that actually want to debate. Professor.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
Barack needs to just not make mistakes and he will take out the EVIL hildebeest

At some point, he will have to debate McCain about the serious business of being commander in Chief

If he can navigate that, he may fool enough people to win

I dont think so, though

I give the American people more credit than that

SOLARMAN
Posted by Randomknowledge 9 years ago
Randomknowledge
On another debate I mean, not this one.
Posted by Randomknowledge 9 years ago
Randomknowledge
I disagree. Clinton is putting up quite a worthy fight. Me and toria are on the same page.
Posted by kels1123 9 years ago
kels1123
Anyone would be better than Obama.
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