The Instigator
mightbenihilism
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
faris
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

You can be Muslim and a Redneck

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
faris
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/14/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 795 times Debate No: 63202
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (10)
Votes (1)

 

mightbenihilism

Pro

Topic: You can be Muslim and a Redneck

The argument here is that it is possible to be both a Muslim and a Redneck.

A Muslim is defined as one who follows a sect of Islam.

A Redneck is defined as "a white person who lives in a small town or in the country especially in the southern U.S., who typically has a working-class job, and who is seen by others as being uneducated and having opinions and attitudes that are offensive." Common other terms are : Hillbillies, Mountain People, Yokels, Hayseeds, Hicks.

I argue that Islam does not contradict the main features of being a Redneck, and some of the minor features of being a Redneck (such as putting bacon in a vanilla shake while drunk) can be dispensed with while still qualifying a person as a "Redneck".

The Con's job is to demonstrate that there are aspects of being a Redneck which are incompatible with Islam, and that these aspects are so vital to being a Redneck, that should one be without them, they cease being a Redneck. The Con does not need to restrict themselves to the definition of "Redneck" given above, but their definitions of Redneck should fall within what is generally accepted as being Redneck in aspect. (For instance, the Con should not argue that since Rednecks are furniture, and since Islam requires some level of consciousness, that Rednecks cannot be Muslims. Generally speaking, most people do not view furniture as being "Rednecks").

NOTE: I am not trying to prove that Islam and being a Redneck are incompatible. I am fishing for good arguments against it. The Con should assume that they are trying to demonstrate the impossibility of my assertion, not that I haven't proven it.

I am aware that the definition of Redneck is fuzzy and philosophically imprecise, but such, I hope, will make for a more interesting debate.

I hope this debate will help us all what it means to truly be a Muslim, and to truly be a Redneck.

You can rebut in the first round. I'll respond. You rebut. Etc. etc. No "I accept".

Thank you for reading.
faris

Con

before i give my opinion, i want to remain you that MUSLIM and REDNECK 100 percent diffrent (i even confuse, why u put this motion)..

first, muslim is a people who have islam religion. and in islam RELIGION (not SECT) teaches how we behave with each other. islam has a lot of instruction to behave. while, REDNECK has no courtesy, example : islam prohobits us not to free sex, in other hands REDNECK who uneducated people often do free sex. so, they have different world, and i believe muslim will not being redneck, and redneck so.

second, muslim is educated people, if they truly learn about islam, because islam teaches them to lern, read, and being educated people. if u see muslim who lazy, get drunk, they're not muslim. like the other religion, every religion teach us to be a good person, so if u see a christian people who steal, not means their religion teach them to steal, but they who did not learn about their religion.

so, i believe YOU CANT be a muslim and a redneck
Debate Round No. 1
mightbenihilism

Pro

Thankyou, Faris, for your kind remarks. I am glad you entered this debate and I look forward to beating you.

You write, "i even confuse, why u put this motion". The reason I put this motion is because I think Muslim Rednecks need someone to stand up for them, and since they cannot operate a computer effectively, I will do so on their behalf.

I will do my best to defeat your opinions and win:

1. "REDNECK has no courtesy"
I agree that, generally speaking, Redneck's do lack courtesy. However, "courtesy" is a cultural thing. For instance, Amir b. Sa'd reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) commanded the killing of geckos, and he called them little noxious creatures. (Sahih Bukhari 26:5563) Considering that geckos are harmless and often cute, I feel that such an act would be discourteous. Is it though? It depends. However, I can see a Redneck killing a gecko far quicker and with much more joy than I would a stoic Lutheran from Iowa. Make sense?

2. "REDNECK who uneducated people often do free sex"
This is very true. However, there are cases in Islam where it is permissible to do free sex, just like a Redneck. For example, under Islam, in a war, if you fight against a man and kill him, you can take his wife, making her a slave, and have sex with her all you want. Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, 'And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess'. That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period." (Abu Dawud 2:2150)

So, a Muslim can have free sex with slave-women. True, a Redneck normally does not have free sex this way, and usually tries other method to pick up woman like smooth talking then at the grocery store, invitations to play video games at the trailor, camping trips or line-dancing, but I don't think often doing free sex can prohibit a Muslim from being a Redneck, provided the women are slaves.

I appreciate your views, however, and I thank you for sharing them with me.

3. "if u see muslim who lazy, get drunk, they're not muslim"
This is true. Laziness is sometimes characteristic of some Rednecks, as is a fondness for over-indulging in alcohol. I will be the first to admit that. However, I argue, ontologically, that laziness and alcoholism are not enough to define Redneck behavior. For instance, if there was a man who was diligent at his job as a car-repairman or Pawn Shop owner, and didn't drink, but still had the following behaviors:

a. Elvis fascination
b. Had a mullet
c. Owned five dogs of uncertain pedigree
d. Played a ukelele cover of "Clair de'Lune"
e. Quite a few ex-wives
f. Smoked Marlboros
g. Lived in a mobile home
h. said the Jews ran the banking system
i. had a fish tank in his front room with no fish

--- we would still consider him a Redneck. And if he believed in Holy Qur'an, practiced salat, fiqh, tassawuf, went on Hajj, etc. then he would be a Redneck Muslim.

To represent this algebraically, x + 1 = 9, therefore x = 8

I hope I made myself clear. I look forward to your rebuttal.
faris

Con

thank you for your fast response, mr. mightbenihilism.

you write, "The reason I put this motion is because I think Muslim Rednecks need someone to stand up for them, and since they cannot operate a computer effectively, I will do so on their behalf." i think if we want to stand up a community, we cant see what's religion they have, i think it's better if we look at humanity side.... but it's not important again talk about why u post this motion, however i appraciate your idea to blow this motion.

1. "Considering that geckos are harmless and often cute, I feel that such an act would be discourteous. Is it though? It depends. However, I can see a Redneck killing a gecko far quicker and with much more joy than I would a stoic Lutheran from Iowa."
==> that hadist state that killing gecko is SUNNAH and you cant just put one hadist. without see other hadist. and that hadist state that kill gecko is allowed if that it danger us. Imam Suyuthi mentioned in "al Asbah an Nazhoir", animals are divided into 4 groups ;
1. animals that useful and not danger us, are prohobited to be killed
2. Animals that danger us and not useful then it is advisable to be killed like: snakes and dangerous animals.
3. Animals that have benefits inside but in other side they can danger us , such as: the eagle is not recomended or makruh to kill them.
4. Animals that do not contain the benefits inside nor dangerous, such as: caterpillars, beetles insect it is not forbidden nor encouraged to kill them.
so, muslim habits different with redneck habits who kill gecko just for fun.

2. "So, a Muslim can have free sex with slave-women."
you wrong, muslim still can do sex, even with slave women, without MARRY first. and if they do sex without marry realitionship, they will be punnished (zinah's sin) and get the sin. so, it's not true if we say they do free sex dude. different with redneck who free to take a girl to their bedroom and making love.

3."Laziness is sometimes characteristic of some Rednecks, as is a fondness for over-indulging in alcohol. I will be the first to admit that. However, I argue, ontologically, that laziness and alcoholism are not enough to define Redneck behavior."
==> it's true that alcoholism are not enough to define Redneck behavior. but with a simple example, we can take a conclusion they're not inappropriate become a muslim. why? because islam clearly tell us, not to drink alcohol. except if alcohol is used for medice action. meanwhile, the rednect is free to consume alcohol, can we say it same like muslim habit??

i think if we say that "true" muslim is same like redneck, it's nor wise argument, or even 100% wrong. but, muslim as religion still accept them to be a muslim, if they release their identity as "real" redneck.

thank u for your brillant ideas. i'm sorry if my post is hurting you. haha. i'm waiting your rebuttal.
Debate Round No. 2
mightbenihilism

Pro

My rebuttal:

1. "kill gecko is allowed if that it danger us. so muslim habits different with redneck habits who kill gecko just for fun."

The Con makes an excellent point here, and I am very impressed. I assumed that geckos were all harmless, but a quick Google search revealed the there is a species of Arabian gecko called "the venom-spitting devil-gecko from hell" which can not only cause humans grievous physical injury, but can also give them alzheimers in some circumstances. The geckos I am accustomed to are normally confined to hanging on walls, leaves and trees. It was bigoted and wrong of me to think that my own small vision of what a gecko is applies to all the world, and I sincerely apologize for my ignorance.

2. "you wrong, muslim still can do sex, even with slave women, without MARRY first. and if they do sex without marry realitionship, they will be punnished (zinah's sin) and get the sin. so, it's not true if we say they do free sex dude."

The Con seems to imply that you must marry the slave-woman first. I am not sure of this. Most of the Islamic scholars I have seem to indicate the contrary. Quoting the Holy Qur'an:

"And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess"

I cannot read Arabic, but the English seems to say that you cannot make the sex with a married woman UNLESS she is a slave (under your right hands' possession). So, if a Redneck uses slavery as his primary way of meeting women, then this is a lawful way of making much sex that does not transgress the limits of Islamic law.

3. "different with redneck who free to take a girl to their bedroom and making love."

This is very interesting and insightful. I am really impressed by Con.

This raises the issue of temporary marriages. I think a Redneck Muslim could get a lot of mileage out of this type of marriage. In a temporary marriage, the Redneck Muslim and his lover-girl agree to be married for the night, and then he divorces her the next morning after breakfast. This way, he can still abide by normal Redneck standards of promiscuity, yet do so within the confines of Islam. Though the Con is clear and very insightful here, I think that if we admit that some Muslims can practice temporary marriages while still remaining Muslim, a Redneck can be a Muslim under this method. For more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

I will leave it to the voters to decide, however.

4. "it's true that alcoholism are not enough to define Redneck behavior. but with a simple example, we can take a conclusion they're not inappropriate become a muslim. why? because islam clearly tell us, not to drink alcohol. except if alcohol is used for medice action. meanwhile, the rednect is free to consume alcohol, can we say it same like muslim habit??"

The Con is doing a great job of tearing my arguments to shredereens, but I think this is where he makes a mistake: Drinking alcohol is not as integral to being a Redneck as smoking cigarettes are. So, a Muslim Redneck could just be one of those Rednecks that don't drink alcohol. A Rendect may be legally free to consume alcohol, but Rednecks do have taboos. For example, I once knew this Redneck named "Billy Joe Johnson III & IV" who wouldn't listen to Jazz music. We were driving to a gun show one time and we were having this long awkward pauses in our small-talk, so I turned on some Coltrane. Man did he have a fit! "Turn off that Jazz mersic!" he yelled.
So, if a Redneck can have taboos against listening to Jazz on the way to a gun show, a Redneck could have an Islamic-taboo on drinking alcohol. Plus, he could drink O'doule's, which is non-alcoholic beer. True, it doesn't increase your confidence beyond all natural reason, but if you put the O'doule's in a Heineken bottle, you can still look sort of cool drinking it.
Metaphysically speaking, the Con hasn't demonstrated that a Redneck must drink alcohol to be a Redneck, and therefore I win.

5. "i think if we say that 'true' muslim is same like redneck, it's nor wise argument, or even 100% wrong. but, muslim as religion still accept them to be a muslim, if they release their identity as 'real' redneck."

And here we come to the real heart of the issue. Can a Redneck have a fully Muslim identity, and can a Muslim have a fully Redneck identity? The Con implies that one would need to forego their Redneck identity to truly embrace an Islamic identity, whereas I argue the opposite.

Let me ask Con a few questions, here, for round 3:

a. Can a Muslim have NASCAR posters in their bathroom?
b. Can a Muslim play the banjo like nothing else?
c. Can a Muslim unironically sport a mullet hair-cut?
d. Can a Muslim drive a Chevy?
e. Can a Muslim appreciate the movie, "After Earth"?
f. Can a Muslim call his grandmother "Jo Ma"?
g. Can a Muslim hunt squirrels for fun and profit?
h. Can a Muslim wear cow-boy boots with shorts?
i. Can a Muslim be a fan of Van Kilmer?
j. Can a Muslim wear a bandana to court?
k. Can a Muslim attach antlers to his motorcycle?

I know some of these things may sound a bit funny to you, but they are legitimate questions. If a Muslim can do these things and still remain a Muslim, then they can retain their Redneck identity. I have studied many Hadith and looked at the different madhabs on this subject, and I think that, on the whole, these behaviors are not prohibited by Islam. Yet anyone who does such things is clearly a Redneck?

Please address a-k and tell me if you find any objectionable to Islam.

http://www.imdb.com...

6. "thank u for your brillant ideas. i'm sorry if my post is hurting you. haha. i'm waiting your rebuttal."

I am a little hurt, but I will adjust.

However, I am clearly winning this debate so I suggest you take the time to really bring the ruckus. Round 3 is the final round, and then you must either concede or explain why you beat me in your final statement.

Thanks again!
faris

Con

in this short time debate, first i want to say sorry, really2 sorry for my speech. because, first i think that con's duty to ban the pro's ideas. so, let we make a solution for this debate, not just rubutal opinion each other.

1. " It was bigoted and wrong of me to think that my own small vision of what a gecko is applies to all the world, and I sincerely apologize for my ignorance."
==> yes, that's true. like you'd talked before, in some areas, gecko can bring harmful for people, in it surrounding. because i believe, my prophet advise us something with some reasons to make us safe, and living peacefully.

2. " I am not sure of this. Most of the Islamic scholars I have seem to indicate the contrary."

==> and what your evidence to support your idea, if you have islamic schoolar that contra with sex without marry??? and i have an avidence that sex without marry is prohobited.

"Nor come nigh to fornication/adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils)."
" Qur'an, Sura 17 (Al-Isra), ayat 32

"The woman and the man guilty of fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment."
" Qur'an, Sura 24 (An-Nur), ayat 2

"And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors. Except those who repent after this and act aright, for surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."
" Qur'an, Sura 24 (An-Nur), ayat 4-5

so, the solution for this problem is : marry is not for having sex with woman, but more precesious than that, because the purpose of marriage are :
(1) The formation of a family through which one can find security and peace of mind. A person who is not married resembles a bird without a nest. Marriage serves as a shelter for anyone who feels lost in the wilderness of life; one can find a partner in life who would share one's joy and sorrow.

(2) The natural sexual desire is both strong and significant. Everyone should have a partner for satisfying their sexual needs in a secure and serene environment. Everyone should enjoy sexual satisfaction in a correct and proper manner. Those who abstain from marriage often suffer from both physical and psychological disorders. Such disorders and certain social problems are a direct consequence of the abstinence of youth from marriage.

(3) Reproduction: Through marriage, the procreation of mankind is continued. Children are the result of marriage and are important factors in stabilizing the family foundations as well as a source of real joy to their parents.

A great deal of emphasis has been given in the Holy Qur'an and the traditions to both marriage and having children. The Almighty Allah states in the Holy Qur'an: "And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves." (30:21)

3." I think a Redneck Muslim could get a lot of mileage out of this type of marriage. In a temporary marriage, the Redneck Muslim and his lover-girl agree to be married for the night, and then he divorces her the next morning after breakfast. This way, he can still abide by normal Redneck standards of promiscuity, yet do so within the confines of Islam"

==> like i've talked before, we have to know first what is the purpose of marriedge and do it to find ridha' Allah. so temporary marriegde ( planning to marry with short time ) is haram. because, we dont recognize and admit in our religon sir.
source : http://en.wikipedia.org...

4. " the Con hasn't demonstrated that a Redneck must drink alcohol to be a Redneck, and therefore I win."

==> i really sorry for my mistake, because you talk before about redneck habit in drinking alcohol, so i get it means that alcohol is redneck favorite drink. so for this reason, yes you win. but, still, alcohol is haram.

5. "Can a Redneck have a fully Muslim identity, and can a Muslim have a fully Redneck identity?"
==> what i want to elaborate you is, we know that redneck have a few bad habits. and even not all of redneck do thats, we still judge them same as like redneck, so, what i mean is, if redneck really want to be a muslim, it's a good news, and i'm happy too. and no one can deny, that they are part of us now. can they still be a redneck community?? yess, but still the rules islam is no 1, so they have to leave their bad habits before.

6. "I know some of these things may sound a bit funny to you, but they are legitimate questions. If a Muslim can do these things and still remain a Muslim, then they can retain their Redneck identity. I have studied many Hadith and looked at the different madhabs on this subject, and I think that, on the whole, these behaviors are not prohibited by Islam. Yet anyone who does such things is clearly a Redneck?"

==> i know when you write this argument, maybe emotional, and i apologize for it, really, maybe my argument is making you very angry. but we finish it first. noo, your argument isn't funny for me. you are true, thats habits not just redneck who apply, but many people do. but what i say is, muslim is prohobited doing those. so, if redneck muslim doing like you mention, it's a wrong action. and it's our duty, to advise them. because, islam prohibit those.

"However, I am clearly winning this debate so I suggest you take the time to really bring the ruckus. Round 3 is the final round, and then you must either concede or explain why you beat me in your final statement."

hopefully you win this debate, but i think the purpose in our debate not just for winning, but for finding the solution.

thank you. i'm glad for this debate.
Debate Round No. 3
mightbenihilism

Pro

Concession speech:

Well, that settles it. You can't be a Muslim and a Redneck, I guess.

Let this be a lesson to all of us that if we believe in something, we've got to go all the way. If you're a Redneck and want to be a Muslim, you've got to put away your singing Bass fish, your tattoo that reads "Lawanda", and your membership in a local Biker Gang.

I want to thank my opponent for an excellent debate. I must admit that this has been my most difficult debate, and though I have lost, I have learned much.
faris

Con

my conclusion :

i think everyone can be a muslim, no matter where they come from, their ethnic, what they have done before. Islam as a religion accepts everyone who want to be muslim. and redneck too. but, they have to seriously learn about islam (although step by step). and i believe they who just be a muslm, know well what they have to do, so it doesnt matter if they have to leave their bad habits (like drinking alcohol, zina, etc. <== it's not for redneck, but who has those bad habits).

seriously, it was an amazing experience to have an experience with you. your arguments are so impressive. and i really, really, really dont care, who will be the winner of this awesome debate. nice to have a debate with you.

i've learned so much. thank you
Debate Round No. 4
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mightbenihilism 3 years ago
mightbenihilism
You're ok in my book, Max. Live wrong and perspire!
Posted by Max.Wallace 3 years ago
Max.Wallace
I love you dog face! In a brotherly way.
Posted by Max.Wallace 3 years ago
Max.Wallace
if you practice enough, you will be perfect. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
Posted by Max.Wallace 3 years ago
Max.Wallace
most of the most devout muslims are rednecks, as the work in the sunshine.
Posted by Mussab 3 years ago
Mussab
I'm not a scholar but I'm pretty positive that temporary marriage is not allowed in Islam (except for Shia who are barely Muslims)
Posted by heyfur_1213 3 years ago
heyfur_1213
I find this humorous... you can be any ethnicity and practice any religion.
Posted by VelCrow 3 years ago
VelCrow
Hahahaha.. then let us hope that freedom of definitions aren't rednecks in general XD
Posted by mightbenihilism 3 years ago
mightbenihilism
If you bite a pug in a tuxedo, you might be a Redneck.
Posted by VelCrow 3 years ago
VelCrow
You should ask Con to provide their definition of a redneck in the first round.. Else that freedom of definition will definitely bite you later.
Posted by mightbenihilism 3 years ago
mightbenihilism
Errata: " I am not trying to prove that Islam and being a Redneck are incompatible." should be "I am not trying to prove that Islam and being a Redneck are compatible."
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 3 years ago
9spaceking
mightbenihilismfarisTied
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Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: pro spells better than con. He concedes.