The Instigator
CapAhab
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
talmid
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

You cannot disprove the trinity as per the Hebrew Scripture

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/12/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 591 times Debate No: 86508
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (21)
Votes (1)

 

CapAhab

Pro

Even if the Trinity is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh or "old" testament), it is impossible to disprove it. I would like to show how. Now my opponent needs to be Jewish and needs to prove that G-d is ONE and that the trinity is not biblical.

https://upload.wikimedia.org...

Round 1 - Rebuttals
Round 2 - Counter-Rebuttals
Round 3 - Counter-Rebuttals
Round 4 - Counter-Rebuttals
Round 5 - Closing Arguments and Closing Statements

(One round can be FF if there is not enough time but try your best to avoid it)

Hebrew Bible only must be use to prove you argument.
talmid

Con

Before I touch how this is false according to the Hebrew Bible, I'd like to refute it in a few other ways first.

LOGICAL FALLACY:
Imagine you're in a courtroom. Reuven is accusing Shimon of murder before the judge. The judge listens patiently to all of Reuven's arguments, and then Reuven finishes. Before rendering judgement, the judge asks, "Do you have any evidence that everything which you just said occurred?" Thereopun, Reuven says, "Do you have any evidence that everything which I just said did not occur?" Before the entire court, Reuven is sent out and Shimon is set free. That is exactly what you are doing. It is not logical for you to ask me to disprove something which you invented. I can say that G-d is actually two, which somehow compose one, and call it the Duality. Or four, and call it the Quatrity. "Show me evidence from the Hebrew Bible that such and such is false."
PHILOSOPHICAL REBUTTAL:

PHILOSOPHICAL REBUTTAL:
G-d is one. He is not two or more, but one, unified in a manner which surpasses all other unities in the world. He is not one in the manner of a general category which includes many separate different entities, but He is one. Technically, you can single out one grain of sand from the beach, and say "This is one grain of sand." But it is accompanied by so many others. This is unlike G-d's oneness, which is truly one. A human body can be called one body, but it possesses so many dimensions! Limbs, organs, cells - much more than one. Again, this is unlike G-d, who is completely 100% one from all corners and all sides, completely one and only. Hineh it is well known that anything which has form and definition thus has limitation. G-d is incorporeal and indefinite, thus He is not limited to time and space, since He is beyond it completely. ANYTHING which you can imagine in your mind has either form or matter. Anything with form and matter is limited. Jesus has form and matter, thus He is limited, and is thus not G-d. If there were many gods, they would have body and form, because like entities are separated from each other only through the circumstances associated with body and form. Thus, they would be limited. I took this concept from Maimonides. He goes into concepts like these further in his "Hilchot Yesodei ha-Torah" (lit. Laws [of the] Foundations [of] the Torah), which you can buy, or read online.


I AM ONE:
The Torah says many times that G-d is one, taking great pains to clarify this concept.
- (Isaiah 44:6) Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God.
- (Isaiah 43:11) I! I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour.
- (Deut 6:4) Hear O Israel, our LORD is G-d, our LORD is One.
- (Exodus 20:3) You shall have no other gods before me.
So on and so forth. The point is, why did it not once ever say a word about G-d being 3 which somehow are one? Think like this.
The one who gave these commandments said that He was one and only. Notice the last verse that I quoted which said "[...] before me", as in, the G-d who is giving these commandments. Before that G-d, there is nothing else. Before another god perhaps, then maybe there are others. Shalom.
Debate Round No. 1
CapAhab

Pro

I thank my opponent for his explanation. I am amaze to see how ridiculous is the trinity. The reason I asked for this debate was not because I believe in the trinity, but to show how people reads things in the Hebrew Bible ("old" testament). Even if G-d said He is ONE, how can we disprove easily that false doctrine. It is clear from His words that G-d is NOT a trinity, but why, when we speak to a Jesus' believer, all arguments go in the wind and even if the passage clearly say He is one, my Christian friend does not see it.

LOGICAL FALLACY:
I agree with my opponent, the burden of the the trinitarian should be on them. Nevertheless, I clearly stated that in my debate "you cannot disprove the Trinity". Thus, even if we should not need to disprove the trinity, Christian state that god is a trinity. How can we, who disbelieve the non testament prove that their doctrine of the trinity is nothing more than non-sense? We just can't, and that's what I will show you.

PHILOSOPHICAL REBUTTAL:
Philosopically speaking, you may be right, but Biblically speaking, someone could use the manifestations of G-d like the shekinah or the experience at the burning bush and say that G-d can manifest Himself in different ways. Also, you are right to say that G-d is no man, but that would be another debate.

G-d clearly said that He is one, nevertheless, something happen in the mind of the Trinitarian believer. Here how he translates the bible verse according to his belief.

Thus saith (a group of three gods who are one), the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me (the groups of three gods) there is no god.

Even if the Bible verse clearly say that there is no one except G-d, the trinitarian put (Jesus/father/HS) there as the lord. That is what the belief of the trinity is. A group of three gods who are one and who is(are) called the lord. (I know it might be offensive to Jewish people to read and that group of three gods is not the L-rd, but this is to prove my point).

I, am the (group of gods who are Jesus, the father and the mysterious "holy" spirit) ; and beside Me (that group of gods)
there is no saviour.

Hear O gentiles, our Lords is gods, our group of three gods is one.
they will usually say something like "the woman and the man become one, so a group of gods can also be one"

Even if the verse clearly say that G-d is one, they will twist it in such a way to remove all meaning out of it! And, because the Non testament say that Jesus is god and that he is different than the "holy" spirit and the father, that must be true, because their false book say so! And even if the Hebrew Bible say the opposite, they can only read their doctrine into it!

You shall have no other gods before me (the group of three gods who are one)

So on and so forth they can twist scripture, but we are not closer to disprove that false doctrine!

"said "[...] before me""

And see how it contradict "For there is one god and one mediator between god and mankind, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Tim 2:5

We both know it's not biblical, but the will add "said "[...] before me (the group of three gods who are one)"" and they are still right in their eyes! And we are no closer to disprove that LIE! Vanity of vanities!

But G-d is one, and only at the end they will realize that they have inherited a lie!

LORD, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in time of distress, to you the nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Our ancestors possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good. Jeremiah 16

And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
talmid

Con

How can we disprove that the angels are actually a bunch of flying spaghetti monsters who ride on balloon rainbow unicorns which in turn are riding on flying walrus / hippopotamus hybrids which are dressed like George Washington and his friends with those white socks and weird wigs?? Sounds ridiculous right? A FORTIORI: I just made an unfalsifiable hypothesis which the Bible does not seem to have anything against. You would admit that this is not what the angels look like at all. In that case; HOW MUCH MORE does this apply to the verses of the Bible which take such great pains to explain that G-d is one and only? Why would the Bible even bother to write that at all? Perhaps it should have never touched the concept of oneness. Or better yet, why not just state explicitly that G-d is three, which somehow makes one? Say that the concept of the trinity does not exist. Now, in the 21st century, a rabbi or priest steps up and makes a claim that G-d is actually three, which are one. According to the Bible, G-d is one and only, and that there is no savior but Him. Therefore, this rabbi or priest would be removed because the Bible says that there is only One G-d. Even if he says that these three are actually one; that's regardless. G-d is ONE which composes ONE. Not THREE which compose ONE. Besides for this, we also have the philosophical evidence against the trinity. The whole doctrine is moronic. It is stupidity, and there are clear and faultless proofs against it. 1. Unfalsifiable hypothesis 2. Not even a hint of implication in the Bible. 3. Philosophical inaccuracy 4. The Bible itself says that there is only One and ONLY G-d. If you will say that the three equal one, then I can say that there are four or five gods which equal one, and you won't be able to disprove that. Or, perhaps you can call me crazy and tell me to look at the verses which take such great pains to elaborate on the fact of G-d's oneness.
Debate Round No. 2
CapAhab

Pro

"How can we disprove that the angels are actually a bunch of flying spaghetti monsters"

This makes as much sense as the trinity! I believe help my unbelief! I believe help my unbelief! Mark 9:24

"HOW MUCH MORE does this apply to the verses of the Bible which take such great pains to explain that G-d is one and only?" And again, every week I see people telling me that god is a plural unity. And even if I show them He is ONE, they do exactly what I did in their mind. And I am still wondering how I can disprove this absurdity.

"Or better yet, why not just state explicitly that G-d is three"
This is the great mystery of Paul (1 Tim 3:16) and the early church fathers. Because the new testament say Jesus is god, the father is god and the holy spirit is god, and because they believe that the new testament is inspired, even if it clearly say that G-d is ONE, they will add the trinity in those Bible verses and still be convinced that god is three in one.

" The whole doctrine is moronic. It is stupidity, and there are clear and faultless proofs against it. "
Again, every times you will show an evident they will add that non-sense to it and they will disregard the truth.

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is ONE! Deuteronomy 6:1

19. Zechariah 14:9 " And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

This is the foundation of Judaism and one of the main reason why the Jewish people refuse to bow to Jesus. G-d is one, and having three distinct person is polytheism.

But let us first look at the verse showing G-d is one and alone.

Exodus 8:10
Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the (group of three gods) our gods.

Deuteronomy 4:35
"To you it was shown that you might know that the (group of three gods), He is God; there is no other besides Him ( the group of three gods).
Deuteronomy 32:12
"The (group of three gods in one) alone guided him, And there was no foreign god with (that group).
Deuteronomy 32:39
'See now that I, I am He (that group of three gods), And there is no god besides (that group of three gods in one); It is I (the godhead) who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand (that's 6 hands I guess).
Isaiah 44:6
"Thus says the (group of three gods in one), the king of gentiles and his redeemer, the (group of three gods in one) of nothing: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides that group of three gods.
Isaiah 45:5
"I am the (group of three gods in one), and there is no other; Besides (the group of three gods in one) there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
Isaiah 44:8
Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides (the group of three gods in one), Or is there any other Rock (jesus)? I know of none.'"
Isaiah 45:6
That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides (the group of three gods in one). I am the lords, and there is no other,
18. Joel 2:27 " And ye shall know that I am in the midst of the gentiles, and that I am the (group of three gods in one) your gods, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Deuteronomy 4:39
"Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the (group of three gods in one), he is gods in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.
Isaiah 43:10
"You are My witnesses," declares the (group of three gods in one), "And My servant (Jesus) whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no gods formed, And there will be none after Me.
Isaiah 45:14
Thus says the (group of three gods in one), "The products of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush And the Sabeans, men of stature, Will come over to you and will be yours; They will walk behind you, they will come over in chains And will bow down to you; They will make supplication to you: 'Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other gods.'"

Exodus 9:14
"For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like (the group of three gods in one) in all the earth.
1 Samuel 2:2
"There is no one like the (group of three gods in one), Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our (group of three gods in one).
Isaiah 46:9
"Remember the former things long past, For I am (the group of three gods in one), and there is no other; I am (the group of three gods in one), and there is no one like Me (us),

"we also have the philosophical evidence against the trinity. "
This theory does not have to make sense for the believer to believe it. So saying it does not make sense won't help!
See my other debate: My opponent is sure that god is still three in one even if I showed you all the previous verses:
http://www.debate.org...

If you will say that the three equal one, then I can say that there are four or five gods which equal one:
Remember your creators (the groups of three gods in one, because the Hebrew is plural) in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come and the years approach when you will say, "I find no pleasure in them"
Why not, four, five, as long as you have a definition to allow you to twist and distort the word of G-d, then you can't disprove!

But will argue that they are not polytheist!

Non-sense but still undisprovable, just like your spaghetti monster. Note that if you would write a book and would say it is the word of god and say that angels are spaghetti monsters, then for those who believe, it would be really hard to disprove. I still think that as per Christian, you cannot disprove it because they will add their doctrine in any verse you will show them.
talmid

Con

So let's just put all of that aside. You know, the fact that
1. the Hebrew Bible gives zero implication of a plural unity, but it does quite the opposite, insisting that there is onlyone
2. Unfalsifiable hypothesis! Flying spaghetti monster walrus hippopotamus hybrids!
3. Philosophical impossibility

I found something new and original. The Bible refers to the Messiah as "My (G-d's) servant." (like in Ezekiel 34:23). If the father and Jesus are equal, how can one be a servant of the other? Also, philosophy-wise, servitude is a physical corporeality. G-d is incorporeal, thus they cannot be One.
Debate Round No. 3
CapAhab

Pro

1. the Hebrew Bible gives zero implication of a plural unity, but it does quite the opposite, insisting that there is only one.
Yes, but one group is still one even if there is no implication to plurality. Thus they can twist scriptures and feel like they are still monotheist.

2. Unfalsifiable hypothesis! Flying spaghetti monster walrus hippopotamus hybrids!
Unfalsifiable indeed!

3. Philosophical impossibility
Yes and that the great mystery of the lie of the trinity! Because Jesus taught it, it must be true as per the Non Testament, so even if not logical, they will tell you "god is too complex for us to understand"

If the father and Jesus are equal, how can one be a servant of the other?
god the son, even if coequal is in submission to the father in his human nature.
talmid

Con

Ahhh so he has human nature? Then he is not G-d, for G-d is not a man. If he is a servant of G-d, he cannot simultaneously be his own master.
Debate Round No. 4
CapAhab

Pro

Yes, the incarnation is another debate on itself. In theory, god could be a trinity while not have incarnate himself.
http://www.debate.org...

Let's wrap up... Did my opponent disproved the unbiblical teaching of the trinity?
You decide :)
talmid

Con

Let's rehearse my arguments:
The Bible says nothing about flying walruses, so they must be real.
The Bible says that G-d is one, when it could have just easily said that He is a plural unity. Therefore, the likeliness of the latter are less than the first claim. Philosophically, a plural unity is impossible, as I explained. The Bible refers to the Messiah as G-d's servant. Servitude is a physical concept, which separates G-d from Jesus, because you cannot be your own servant.
Debate Round No. 5
21 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
One of the problems with speaking to Mormons about the Gospel is that the words they use don"t mean the same thing to the average Christian. When Mormons use words like Trinity, God, Jesus, salvation, etc., they are not thinking the same thing as would a Christian. This is a problem. The Mormons think they are speaking with true Christian understanding as does the average Christian. They may use the same words, but they don"t mean the same things.

https://carm.org...

Well, I guess we had a language barrier... I said something, my opponent said something and we did not understand each others.
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
Hi harrytruman, I would avoid Sikhism. Look what they say: "Jesus is one of the most respected and valued spiritual being in the history of mankind. He gave up his life in order to stand up for the truth and remain strong in his belief and teachings of God. "

http://www.realsikhism.com...

Jews are still the only one that hold not status to Jesus. Everybody else think he is a prophet or someone that comes from G-d. Why make your life complicated, why should you believe in something your fathers did not worship?

The way Jesus showed Christians is the same way Sikh Gurus showed to the Sikhs. Gurus are to Sikhs what Jesus is to Christians.
http://www.realsikhism.com...

Just my opinion...
Posted by harrytruman 1 year ago
harrytruman
Here is the link:
https://docs.google.com...
And Talmid, I don't know of this "Kabir," of which you speak.
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
Please note that's what chirstians did with the new testament. Re-inventing doctrines and words and messing things up. That why after one sin god will send you to hell. That's why god is unforgiving in the christian bible. Anything for you to worship that dead-man and unify with Rome (the last beast) of Daniel 7.
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
Hi Talmid, my whole point is to prove the trinity is ridiculous. Come and join me in the defence of the truth at those blog. Read my comments (Remi4321) and you will see how bad I disdain Jesus! This is pure idolatry. G-d is one. For the Sikh, I just know nothing about that belief and will not debate something I don't know well.

http://orthodoxmessianic.blogspot.ca...
http://dailyminyan.com...
http://www.debate.org...

Please note that it's the first time I put myself in the Christian side. And, again, I do believe that the new testament is a bunch of spagethi monsters and will dedicate my life to disprove it. I would also convert to orthodox, but can't because I am married to a believer in Jesus. So it would be too hard for the sake of my family.
Posted by talmid 1 year ago
talmid
Maybe that's why you're so passionate to defend this anti-Judaism belief. Because you've been indoctrinated with the nonsense of their scriptures. You not finding flaws is of no significance. It's not easy to find em, you need a good memory. Besides, to the best of my knowledge, there are flaws in Sikh belief. Here are some that I pasted from an outside site:

1. It teaches the contradictory concepts of God being Sargun i.e. with attributes and also Nirgun -without attributes (p287; p102).
2. It teaches reincarnation and yet the Guru Granth Sahib questions reincarnation(p748 M5; p1366 Kabir).
3. It teaches the concept of hell (p465 M1; p524 M5; p793 Ravidass; p875 Ravidass; p1383 Farid; Asa Kabirji GGS p484). And yet says hell does not exist (p969 Kabir). And it also teaches the mutually exclusive concept of karma & transmigration. If you are born again and again to pay for the sins of previous lives, why the need for hell or heaven? (p686; p156; Rag Malhar M3; Rag Gauri M5)
4. The Guru Granth Sahib says neither Hinduism nor Islam has the truth (p329 Kabir; p875 Namdev) and yet says that the opposite (contrary) is also true(p1350 Kabir).Guru Arjun Dev even validates the Vedas (p632 M5). And guru Govind Singh says Allah & Abhek (Ram) are the same and the Koran and Hindu scriptures are the same (Akal Ustat vs 16:86).
5. It claims that there is only one way to God (p920 M3; p1279 M1) and yet the Guru Granth Sahib also teaches there are many ways to God (p885 M5.7. It teaches that all humans are children of God ( p1118 M4) yet also says, not all, but only those who love Him are His children (p658 Ravidass).
6. The guru says that he is blind, ignorant and without enlightenment (p696 M4) yet he is called ?guru?, which means one who leads from darkness to light.
7. It teaches the existence of Heaven (p718 Namdev; p952 M3) yet the concept of Heaven is rejected(p969 Kabir).
Posted by CapAhab 1 year ago
CapAhab
Thanks Harry. I will have to refuse the debate. I don't know anything about Sikhism. :) But send me the link. I will read it. I just want to make sure I read the good thing.
Posted by Rami 1 year ago
Rami
Ah, Talmid, you should've already countered the biggest "proof" of a trinity: Let us make man.
Posted by harrytruman 1 year ago
harrytruman
@capahab
The same reason you can be both a Jew and a Conservative.
@Talmid
It would be so much better to debate this in a debate,
I will make you a deal though, go read the guru Grantham, the moment you find one flaw in it, tell me and I will drop it altogether, I read it and I have seen no flaws, hence, like the Torah, it cannot be from man.
Posted by talmid 1 year ago
talmid
You can't, I'm still working on purging the Sikhism from our friend harrytruman.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by harrytruman 8 months ago
harrytruman
CapAhabtalmidTied
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Reasons for voting decision: I love this it's so funny.