The Instigator
dr.jimmythefish
Pro (for)
The Contender
TropaBino
Con (against)

You cannot provide a philosophic argument for the existence of god that I cannot rebuff

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Debate Round Forfeited
dr.jimmythefish has forfeited round #5.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 1/25/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 11 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 521 times Debate No: 99288
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

dr.jimmythefish

Pro

If I lose this debate I will become a christian, If you can give me any philosophic argument for the existence of god that I can't disassociate or rebuff, I will concede. Also the last round for you is pointless as I will be unable to respond and that is the point of the debate.
TropaBino

Con

Moral argument.

Kant"s moral argument. [1]
(1) Moral behaviour is rational.
(2) Morality behaviour is only rational if justice will be done.
(3) Justice will only be done if God exists.
Therefore:
(4) God exists.

1 - Morality, is by definition, something rational. If we ought to do something, then we have a good reason to do it.
2 - Most of the time it profits more to sin than to do good. So why should we do good? It only makes sense to do good if there are drawbacks to sin. That can only be achieved if Justice is ultimately done.
3 " Ultimate justice is not served in this life. There are always things that happen, that don"t get justice. Like cheating in a test" So, there must be some kind of justice system after death.

I don"t have sufficient characters to write to write C.S. Lewis" moral argument. But I"ll make this statement and you can respond to this as well. Morality is absolute.

[1] http://www.philosophyofreligion.info...
Debate Round No. 1
dr.jimmythefish

Pro

the simple flaw with this argument is that I don't believe in perfect justice. Crimes go unpunished all the time, why should the world be just? To do so would unbalance nature, the poor fawn doesn't deserve to die but it dose, for it not to would cause the wolf never to eat and thus die you see were your argument is faulted. The world is unjust thus your statement that morality is only rational if justice is achieved is tied to Kantiusm witch is a very justice based morality code, so this argument has an estranging premise.
TropaBino

Con

Crimes go unpunished all the time, that"s why ultimate justice must exist. Otherwise, Morality would not be rational. However, morality is rational, by definition, thus obligating ultimate justice to exist. But also, for Ultimate justice to exist, there must be a God.

The argument from contingency.

1.If something exists, there must exist what it takes for that thing to exist.
2.The universe"the collection of beings in space and time"exists.
3.Therefore, there must exist what it takes for the universe to exist.
4.What it takes for the universe to exist cannot exist within the universe or be bounded by space and time.
5.Therefore, what it takes for the universe to exist must transcend both space and time.

This is would be God.
Debate Round No. 2
dr.jimmythefish

Pro

1. justice is a ideal to strive for not a possibility and moralist being logical is exclusive to Kauntisum and 2, an infinite regress is probable and why is god an exception to the rules used to allow his existence?
TropaBino

Con

Justice is justice, I don't know what you mean by this. Don"t over complicate it. The 1st argument is valid, and in my opinion you did not "rebuff" it. I don"t have enough characters to explain why infinite regress is impossible, but virtually every serious philosopher says it is impossible.
Good question. Because, God does not exist. He is above existence. Check Plato's 3 levels of reality. First level, is where God is, where nothing changes. Second, is where things constantly change, where everything exists. Third level, is the nothingness. This is a summary, obviously. Other explanation, is that the creator of what exists has to be superior, this is universe has time, God is timeless, universe has space, God is spaceless. Basically, God is in another dimension.

Here is another way to put it.
1)Whatever begins to exist has a cause for its coming into being."
2)The universe began to exist.
3)Therefore, the universe has a cause for its coming into being.
Debate Round No. 3
dr.jimmythefish

Pro

The wold is quite simply the world, Justice is an lofty idea nature has no justice. If god is an multidimensional being 1. why dose he care 2, him existing at all still means he is bound by the laws of existence, If he is matter and thus exists then he cannot be in more than one place simultaneously 3, if he is a being of another dimension how did he get there? 4, if he is a being then he is bound by the age old maxim that power corrupts thus the almighty is alcorrupt and evil this claim is logically supported by the world, look at all the crime, poverty, war and corruption and tell me this is gods plan. I say if god is real then he should be destroyed. 5, also look at the effects of religion, it acts like a relaxant of the people against injustice, or it excites them to kill, rape and pillage.
TropaBino

Con

I know that"s what think you believe. The world is just the world. However, in reality, we might just say that justice is an idea created by man, and has no fundamental importance. But, we would all agree that what the NAZI"s did to the Jews was fundamentally wrong or that a man raping a baby is fundamentally wrong and that it deserves punishment. The implications of your first sentence is nothing is really wrong and if it were wrong there is no necessary reason to do justice. Actually, your first sentence is actually how the lawyers defending the NAZI"s defended them. 1) That is not what the title is about. 2) He is not bound by laws of existence, he is above existence (check round 3). One thing can be in two places at once, quantum mechanics, (not important). 3) He is, He didn"t get anywhere. He is. 4) 5) not in question. You are losing ground. You are accepting he can exist. Thus, I have provided a philosophical argument for His existence you can't rebuff.
Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by canis 12 months ago
canis
Why a philosophic argument ?..If there is no profe of anything but an idea.
Posted by dr.jimmythefish 12 months ago
dr.jimmythefish
I called god a psychopath your anger was warranted
Posted by TropaBino 12 months ago
TropaBino
why did you put a 1000 character limit?
Posted by TropaBino 12 months ago
TropaBino
I've herd of Pascal's wager. just the part: You believe inGod. If he's real you get eternal reward, if he isn't you live a normal life. You don't believe in God. If he is real you get eternal punishment, if he isn't you live a normal life. I haven't heard of that part. But I guess that might be true.

Just one thing, I'm sorry if I was a bit hard on you on the other debate comment section. I hope you can forgive me. I wasn't angry at you. I guess it was that sad 'tribal' instinct in all of us when something we defend so dearly gets attacked. Even though the God doesn't need my defence.
Posted by dr.jimmythefish 12 months ago
dr.jimmythefish
I'm just upping the stakes a bit, but have you hear of Pascal's wager and his religious arguments, which specifies that God doesn't care why you first choose to join his worshipers but only that you do.
Posted by TropaBino 12 months ago
TropaBino
I will accept tomorrow. However, i'm not going to do this for you to become a Christian. You will never become a christian by accepting arguments. Believing in Jesus is different to what you think. Believing in Jesus is more than acknowledging His existence, even demons have that type of belief. Real believing in Jesus is surrendering your life to Christ, accepting what He did for you on the cross and repenting from sins.

Just thought Would say that. Anyway I will accept your debate and I look forward to present a reason for my belief in God.
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