The Instigator
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Brendan_Liam
Con (against)
Winning
8 Points

You can't go to heaven the way you are yourself

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Brendan_Liam
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/14/2014 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,175 times Debate No: 58965
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (51)
Votes (2)

 

LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

If you say there is no heaven or heaven must be proven, it does not matter. If there is no heaven, then you can't go to heaven no matter what. If you say heaven cannot be proven, it does not matter. All I have to do is show it would not be heaven if you were there as you are yourself.
Brendan_Liam

Con

Well, I accept and thank you, however, I see you have not defined 'Heaven' a term with many meanings. I'll go ahead and get that out of the way.

DEFINITION: "Heaven" also called "Rapture". In tHe Lotus Sutra's 2nd Chapter (Hoben or 'expedient means'), the 10 worlds, their mutual possession as well as the 10 factors of life and the 3 realms of life are discussed, multiplied together they make 3000 life conditions in a single moment. Heaven is the 6th world, it is the World of Rapture, it comes about in two ways: The relief of a suffering or the fulfillment of a desire. Heaven is real, a life condition of the mind-the only place these worlds exist.

And as you are is the only way one can get there, and it is a lower world, and like all others, temporary.

There are not two lands you see. There is no 'pure land' outside your mind-where all environments are defined by the entity in them. Rather, if the mind is pure-the land reflects that and becomes the pure land.
Debate Round No. 1
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

My opponent states:

"There are not two lands you see. There is no 'pure land' outside your mind-where all environments are defined by the entity in them. Rather, if the mind is pure-the land reflects that and becomes the pure land.



My opponents mind is not pure (or is my opponent claiming to have a pure mind? perhaps my opponent needs to define "pure") so my opponent cannot go to whatever heaven is defined as

The title of the debate is "you cannot go to heaven ..........

My opponent seems to be saying heaven is in his mind, so it is not a place you go to. That is agreeing with me that you cannot go to heaven the way you are yourself. My opponent is saying it's all in his mind, so you can't go to somewhere you already are. My opponent is agreeing with me in saying he cannot go to heaven. Going somewhere means you are going to a place where you are not at now. If heaven is in my opponents mind, he is already there and there is nowhere to go.
Brendan_Liam

Con

First of all, you can go to a place you're already at-if you were'nt aware you were there previously or if the place changes while you stand still.

Heaven is indeed a place and a life condition, and the 'and' is a must-you cannot have one without the other. If you are in heaven, or hell (life condition of rage, the desire to destroy everything around one, including one's self) in your mind, the environment reflects that-perfectly and wherever you are becomes heaven. This is the Buddhist concept of 'Esho Funi' which means 'you are one with your environment.' So the second I change life conditions, into heaven, wherever I am becomes heaven and I did go there. How I go there is irrelevant to the topic. Example: I don't have a girlfriend and I want one badly-I might be in the world of hunger, alone, feeling empty and alone, wanting this desire fed. I approach a pretty girl at Walton's Discount Store, and ask her out, she agrees-I am elated, I go to heaven for at least a spell.
Debate Round No. 2
LifeMeansGodIsGood

Pro

You can be in your mind, you can't go to your mind unsless you start from outside of your mind. Are you out of your mind? If heaven is a place you can go, it's not in your mind. If it's in your mind, you are already there. Are you out of your mind or ar you in heaven? If you are in heaven, you are already there and you can't go there because you are already there. Believing Bhudda, you are agreeing with me that you can't go to heaven......even if you say it is only because it is in your mind and you are already in your mind so you are already there......unless you are out of your mind, then you can try to go to heaven in your mind...........but then it's still in your mind so it's not a place you can go as you are yourself. Again, are you in your mind or are you out of your mind?
Brendan_Liam

Con

Redundancy is not a rebuttal. I already addressed the 'go' and did so in regard to the mind and the environment being one, as I said 'esho funi'. you are one with your environment. Heaven is a state of life, and can only exist if it is found in the mind-if it is, then one indeed goes to heaven in their environment without physically going anywhere. All I need to go to heaven, is the right environment stimuli and I will go there. And this is true for all of us. If a pretty girl comes up to you and starts lavishing attention on you-did you not go to heaven when it happened? By the definition used in this debate, indeed you did.

If your doctor tells you, "It's amazing! Your tumor is gone, you're not going to die!" thereby relieving your suffering... you awaken to the world of heaven-you go to heaven, right there in his office.... until your next desire emerges at which point you will go to hunger, another lower world. Heaven is a low world because it is not based within.
Debate Round No. 3
51 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Binding Contract:

I, God, do hereby swear by the blood of my Son, Jesus, to overlook all of your violations of my Holy Law and grant you full pardon and entrance into eternal life by the resurrection of my Son from the dead if you will agree to the following terms:

1) You must acknowledge that you are the one who deserved to die and my Son did not deserve to die.

2) You must believe that I love you so much that I died in your place in the form of Jesus Christ my Son, and you must believe that I raised Him from the dead and can do the same for you.

3) You must ask me to accept you on these terms, asking for my mercy to forgive you and believe that I am willing to forgive you. You must receive my Son, Jesus, as your Saviour by asking me in His name to save you.

This contract is written by me in the blood of my Son whom I gave to be the satisfaction for payment for your sins against me. If you honestly agree to the terms above, and will receive my Son as your Saviour,
sign here..........................<-----your name here. It's not too good to be true, I always honor my Word, and I have committed all Judgement into the hands of My Son, Jesus, who paid the price to secure this contract for you. Did you sign it? Will you sign it?

God
.........................<---------you sign here to enter into agreement with God and receive His guarantee of pardon and eternal life
in Jesus Christ.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Alice in Wonderland has cast her final vote
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
you can't go to places in your mind, that's silly. The only way to go to places in your mind is if you are out of your mind to start with. You have to be out of your mind to say you can go to places in your mind.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
...if you say there is no God who created all things, life's value certainly is questionable. God values life and especially His creatures which he endowed with free will, reasoning, and creative powers like His because He is good and He enjoys Himself and He enjoys all of His creatures who do what He designed them to do, to enjoy the freedom He gave them honorably, and to give their Creator all of the honor and glory for the life He gave them.

Why should a man complain about the punishment for his sins? God does not willingly afflict or grieve people. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. All who are turned against Him will be turned into the fire of Hell. God is not willing that any shoudl perish, but that all should come to repentance. Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

Life Means God is Good!!!!! That is why it's value is unquestionable!!! For crying out loud, repent and believe on the LORD JESUS CHRIST and you will be saved from the fire of Hell!! God Himself (Jesus Christ) died in your place to pay for your crimes against Him and rose from the dead so He is just to punish your violations of His holy law with the fire of Hell if you reject His payment for your sins and you refuse His offer of pardon through the blood he paid with for you......God's gift offer is eternal life, salvation from the fire of Hell which we all deserve! Recieve the LORD JESUS CHRIST as your Saviour through faith and you will be a child of God and heaven.

Let me know if I can help you pray about this.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
You won't be defeated if you wont admit your nature is evil, turned against God. Pride prevents most people from admitting they are evil. We all deserve to burn in Hell. If you wont' admit this, you won't believe you are evil and you wont believe you deserve what is coming and what you will get. You still have not addmitted that you deserve to die. How can you admit that you are evil....maybe I'll take you up on a debate in it
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
You would have to gain a new understanding of what evil it.......evil can appear beutiful.
Posted by Strycora 2 years ago
Strycora
LMGiG and I should debate whether or not humans are necessarily evil. If he could defeat me in that, he could convert me to Christianity.
Posted by Siladheil 2 years ago
Siladheil
If you commented in this debate, please check out my debate with LMGiG, please vote. I don't care what side you believe in, I'd like honest opinions.

http://www.debate.org...
Posted by Strycora 2 years ago
Strycora
LMGiG is worse than blind. He is blessed with sight, but is determined to stare at one thing for his entire life.
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Hi Fuzzzzz, how are you? Did you learn anything from that wonderful debate and the ongoing discussion in the comments? Which debate was that, I forget........I just remember a lot of great conversations, seemed like you were getting close to believing Jesus Christ rose from the grave bodily and conquered death for all who believe on Him and receive Him by faith as their Saviour.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
LifeMeansGodIsGoodBrendan_LiamTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Con demonstrated that you can go to places in your mind, as I do in meditation, but that is not in the debate, though we often go to places in our mind, if Heaven is in Con's mind, he certainly can go there when he needs to go there. The mind is a Theater where we can go to all sorts of places. Pro's rebuttals and arguments do not challenge Con's arguments successfully, denial is not evidence nor a good argument. Pro made an attack on Con's sanity by the statement "My opponents mind is not pure". This is a deliberate insult made at Con. Thus gives Con a conduct point.
Vote Placed by FuzzyCatPotato 2 years ago
FuzzyCatPotato
LifeMeansGodIsGoodBrendan_LiamTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Con had only definiton of heaven, proved visiting it possible.